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Offline hxmiesa  
#51 Posted : 11 April 2021 10:59:02(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,227
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The eagle has nothing to do with NSDAP. It has always been a symbol of the Kings of Prussia.

That's not the issue. Part of the eagle-logo is that the eagle is sitting on top of a circle that has the swastika inside it. It seems like Märklin has chosen NOT to represent that part of the logo, but people in the know "see" it anyway, as that is what the original logo had!

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline dickinsonj  
#52 Posted : 11 April 2021 13:25:33(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,438
Location: United States
The Reichsadler originated with the Holy Roman Empire according to Wikipedia, which has this to say:

"The German Imperial Eagle (Reichsadler) originates from a proto-heraldic emblem believed to have been used by Charlemagne, the first Frankish ruler crowned Holy Roman Emperor by the Pope in 800, and derived ultimately from the Aquila or eagle standard, of the Roman army."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsadler

What I referred to are the very specific versions used by the NSDAP where the eagle is sitting upon a circle with a swastika in the middle. BTW I have a picture of a great grandfather wearing a swastika pin from long before it had this association, when it was kind of like a four leaf clover. But the Reichsadler in that format had everything to do with the NSDAP, and even though Märklin did not reproduce the swastika we all know that it is there.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline H0  
#53 Posted : 11 April 2021 18:26:56(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
I believe E19 to be era II
Class E 19.1 with red skirts and red sandboxes is the museum edition, not era II. If the catalogue shows era II then the manufacturer didn't research properly.

Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
Seems like an odd question to me, the vehicles are just vehicles they’re not evil. You can appreciate the engineering without endorsing the regimes they were involved in.
Vehicles are not evil, but the Hakenkreuz is a sign of the evil that was to come.
Steamers in camouflage are somewhat evil because the state that started the war added the camouflage painting. Trains with FLAK cars are a symbol of the war time, so are freight cars loaded with WW II tanks, aircrafts, or submarines.
Coaches from era IV or later with tanks do not have the war-time touch, but still I don't want to have them on my layout.

Edited by user 12 April 2021 10:32:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Goofy  
#54 Posted : 12 April 2021 06:19:23(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,401
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Vehicles are not evil, but the swastika is a sign of the evil that was to come.




Swastika is a symbol of the sun and started for thousands of years ago by of india people. It is nazism that has become evil and started use and abuse swastika in false myth.
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Offline H0  
#55 Posted : 12 April 2021 10:32:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Swastika is a symbol of the sun and started for thousands of years ago by of india people. It is nazism that has become evil and started use and abuse swastika in false myth.
The swastika is a peaceful sign. The Hakenkreuz is a bad sign and it is in most cases illegal to show it in Germany.

On locos and airplanes of that time it is the Hakenkreuz, not the harmless swastika.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#56 Posted : 12 April 2021 11:16:33(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,963
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hello and thank you for all the opinions and outlooks on an interesting part of history.
The debate has been done in a very good spirit.

I took this photo in 2018 when I visited the DB Museum in Koblenz.
UserPostedImage

It shows clearly what is an acceptable (in Germany) representation of the symbol used from 1938.
This is one of the 1935-39 builds of the express coaches known in German as the Schürzenwagen (apron or skirted cars).
It is what I believe may have been the original livery of green with ivory striping.
The casting of the eagle is a work of art. I don't know if it was brass, nickel or aluminium or some metallic alloy or compound.
Anyway the casting is as originally placed on the side of the car when built.
The letters DR signify Deutschen Reichsbahn (DRB) which was a 1938 corporate transformation of the 1920 DRG (Deutsche Reischsbahn Gesellschaft).
The Swatika symbol (Tom .. > Hakenkreuz) which is still part of the casting has been covered and hidden by a simple circular disc (approx diam. 70mm) and held by a single srew or bolt through the middle.

The Schürzenwagens were themselves a state of the art development in rolling stock and certainly deserve their place in railroad annals.
Märklin have made many models of this type of car since about 1995, one example being set #43256 for the epoch around 1938.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#57 Posted : 12 April 2021 12:46:20(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 493
Location: Michigan, Troy
Perhaps it's a touchy slope. Slippery, unless care taken for solid footing. The reischbahn was an entity of the third Reich, under Hans Schtickelmeyer. I don't even like saying Hitler. They tricked many Germans with a former peaceful sign into following evil.
Here in America we are still at odds over our civil war history, the Confederate flag being flown, the Kkk, and racial discord. Yet we have rights to display such things. In Gettysburg National battle ground memorial Park, there are both items from the north and south.
As much as I disliked the maga slogan (Make America Great Again) it is now history. If we erase these items from books, private and or public display 100%, how can future generations learn from history so they are wise not to repeat them?
It is crucial to know how to read between lines and signs in order to rationalize ethical and moral behavior. There are not always good and bad on both sides. If you fail to condemn a violent act as a leader, you are a failure. That fueled more racial unrest. The culmination were law enforcement officers thinking they could get away more abuse and brutality, and ultra radicals organizing kidnapping, murder, and a siege on our Capitol.
Hitler had artistic talent, and even liked trains. He lost his way and embraced hatred. Bad thoughts create bad actions. Good thoughts good actions. Thinking you are better than others is a bad thought. Never forget, Never again!
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Offline mrmarklin  
#58 Posted : 13 April 2021 01:11:13(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 840
Location: Burney, CA
In reply to Kimball, the Hermann Goering private train wagen is in the Koblenz museum. Very interesting. Hitler's personal train was destroyed as the war ended.
Set #43229 consists of recycled cars of German higher ups from WWII, I believe.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline Goofy  
#59 Posted : 13 April 2021 06:16:47(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,401
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Swastika is a symbol of the sun and started for thousands of years ago by of india people. It is nazism that has become evil and started use and abuse swastika in false myth.
The swastika is a peaceful sign. The Hakenkreuz is a bad sign and it is in most cases illegal to show it in Germany.

On locos and airplanes of that time it is the Hakenkreuz, not the harmless swastika.



Swastika and hakenkreuz are same symbol. Some country did used hakenkreuz for other acting too and not for nazism. Those who use modeltrains does not need to be shame if there are symbols. Even royal symbols on the old locomotives.
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Offline H0  
#60 Posted : 13 April 2021 08:33:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,121
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
It shows clearly what is an acceptable (in Germany) representation of the symbol used from 1938.
I don't see clearly what's in the circle.

Film makers can use the real Hakenkreuz, toy makers cannot use it. I think museums can use it, but may decide not to use it.

A different question is whether you want to buy the available models of era II and which scenes you model on the layout.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline marklinist5999  
#61 Posted : 13 April 2021 09:04:55(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 493
Location: Michigan, Troy
What does the Asian symbol mean that is 4 arms in a circle? I'll Google it later. I'm awake again at 3 a.m.
Also, the Marklin Danish m y series of older issues has a round symbol stamped into the bottom of the bogie with arrows and a zig zag. I was told it was an award symbol.
Offline Doc.Calladine  
#62 Posted : 13 April 2021 15:03:56(UTC)
Doc.Calladine

Australia   
Joined: 12/04/2021(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Trinity Beach, Queensland
Very interesting topic and I thought I would add my two cents worth...

It is interesting to note that not all of the Reichsbahn’s locomotives and rolling stock carried the Eagle and Hakenkreuz, and the ones which did varied between a large cast version and a simple painted stencil. I believe this would have been based on the need to use materials for other war related causes. Many locomotives carried either a cast metal plate or a stencil with Deutsche Reichsbahn, while many passenger cars and almost all freight cars simply had a DR painted on them.

It is also important to note that there was an uncomfortable alliance many times between the generals and A.H. and other high ranking Nazi’s, at least in the early stages. Hence the SS was separate from the Army (Wehrmacht) in the beginning, as they were being given/fed two different ideologies. So perhaps these particular trains held some significance to either the high ranking officials, in the way of special achievements in technology, speed or perhaps as propaganda in particular areas of Germany and/or occupied areas of Europe. So as to state very loudly that the 3rd Reich is here to stay. While the general needs of transport was issued locomotives and cars without this extra crap bolted on.

So if anyone has a desire to model this period in history, an accurate representation could still be done without the need to display the Hakenkreuz. A very interesting book on the subject of the DR at war is by Andreas Knipping and Reinhard Schultz titled Die Deutsche Reichsbahn 1939-1946, Zwischen Ostfront und Atlantikwall.

I am an amateur historian on the Second World War... my grandfather on my mum’s side fought in the German Army and my father was an Irishman, who joined the US Army Air Force to fight the Nazi’s... so I am very interested in the actual history, but I model all my railways are of the Bundesbahn of the 1970s (Ep IV).

To finish up, history is history. What has happened in the past can’t be changed and to recreate this in a miniature form is not bad, so long as it is represented accurately, with sensitivity and without embellishment. However trying to change the narrative of the past is morally dangerous and extremely slippery slope that can’t end well.
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Offline Agneaux  
#63 Posted : 16 April 2021 07:38:40(UTC)
Agneaux

Australia   
Joined: 16/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 80
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hello and thank you for all the opinions and outlooks on an interesting part of history.
The debate has been done in a very good spirit.

I took this photo in 2018 when I visited the DB Museum in Koblenz.

Snip

It shows clearly what is an acceptable (in Germany) representation of the symbol used from 1938.
This is one of the 1935-39 builds of the express coaches known in German as the Schürzenwagen (apron or skirted cars).
It is what I believe may have been the original livery of green with ivory striping.
The casting of the eagle is a work of art. I don't know if it was brass, nickel or aluminium or some metallic alloy or compound.
Anyway the casting is as originally placed on the side of the car when built.
The letters DR signify Deutschen Reichsbahn (DRB) which was a 1938 corporate transformation of the 1920 DRG (Deutsche Reischsbahn Gesellschaft).
The Swatika symbol (Tom .. > Hakenkreuz) which is still part of the casting has been covered and hidden by a simple circular disc (approx diam. 70mm) and held by a single srew or bolt through the middle.

The Schürzenwagens were themselves a state of the art development in rolling stock and certainly deserve their place in railroad annals.
Märklin have made many models of this type of car since about 1995, one example being set #43256 for the epoch around 1938.

regards
Kimball


Thanks. One problem for me is the negativity (however justifiable) from around this period, is that it hides some truly oustanding engineering advances.

These steel cars are state-of-the-art and it is disappointing to know that the politics and actions of this era will forever overshadow some things that would in other situations, be applauded.

I have some era III versions including the Adenuer set. They are lovely models.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#64 Posted : 17 April 2021 00:50:45(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,963
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
It shows clearly what is an acceptable (in Germany) representation of the symbol used from 1938.
I don't see clearly what's in the circle.

Film makers can use the real Hakenkreuz, toy makers cannot use it. I think museums can use it, but may decide not to use it.

A different question is whether you want to buy the available models of era II and which scenes you model on the layout.


Hi Tom,

The swastika (Hakenkreuz) is covered by a plate of a slightly smaller diameter than the surround circle.
I particularly noted that because it covers the Hakenkreuz.
Any person who knows history knows what is beneath the plate.

Unfortunately I did not measure the diameter of the circle.
Silly me.

Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline Minok  
#65 Posted : 21 April 2021 23:42:06(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,211
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The eagle has nothing to do with NSDAP. It has always been a symbol of the Kings of Prussia.

Remember the first Lok in Germany was named der Adler. The eagle.


The eagle, in general, has been one of the key symbols of Germany since its inception and before, when it was a confederation, or before when it was a major part of the "Holy Roman Empire".
In every instance of the general concept of a Germanic state, the eagle has varied.

However, the specific Roman stylized version I think is tied to the 3rd German Reich era from 1933-45, as there was a lot of Roman style symbolism used in the Nazi era.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline skeeterbuck  
#66 Posted : 22 April 2021 13:08:47(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 500
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
The German Diesel-Pneumatic Locomotive V3201 was the loco that used a U-Boat engine. Wink

There's no way a diesel engine designed for U-boat use could ever produce anywhere close to enough RPM to spin a propeller fast enough to power a rail car. I think the RPM of the U-boat diesel was about 500 RPM.

http://www.douglas-self....LOCO/diesair/diesair.htm
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Offline Agneaux  
#67 Posted : 12 May 2021 01:56:59(UTC)
Agneaux

Australia   
Joined: 16/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 80
So, regardless of what you might want to model from an ethical perspective, our suppliers and retailers have other ideas about how you might arrive at an acceptable decision about this period in time.

Marklin's 45097 Airplane Transport Car Set.

Quote:
Prototype: 6 flat cars and 1 freight train baggage car painted and lettered for the German State Railroad Company (DRG). 3 Messerschmitt ME 109 airplanes, disassembled for transport by rail. The cars and airplanes look as they did in the Thirties.
.

1. painted and lettered for the German State Railroad Company (DRG)
This is not correct, there is no DRG logo on the baggage car.

2. 3 Messerschmitt ME 109 airplanes,
This aircraft did not start mainstream service until 1937 Wikipedia Me109.

3. The cars and airplanes look as they did in the Thirties.
This is only correct for the years, 1937, 1938 and 1939. The applicable railway was Deutsche Reichsbahn; not Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft.


More marketing confusion

A retailer in the US is promoting this package: Roco 712051

Quote:
Locomotive Details:

Steam locomotive class 01.10 of the Deutsche Reichsbahn (DRG 1937-1949).

- Streamlined fairing for locomotive and tender
- Model in red livery
- With five-axle tender type 2'3 T 38
- With true to original sound functions

In the years 1939/40, 55 three-cylinder locomotives of the class 01.10 were built for the Deutsche Reichsbahn. Due to the fact that the locomotive had a streamlined fairing, it was possible to drastically reduce the air resistance already in the wind tunnel. Driving tests confirmed the assumption that the locomotives could easily reach 150 km / h. The effective tractive force on the hook was also increased by almost 50%. Therefore, red paintwork would have been perfectly feasible on some locomotives.


1. DRG 1937-1949. No such thing. the DRG ceased its major function of payment of war reparations in 1933 when the new chancellor came onboard. The company was disbanded when the National Socialists took control.

2. In the years 1939/40
Again, not DRG.

Yet the associated picture clearly shows the formal DRG logo, despite the fact that the loco and carriages are carrying the reichsadler (or rendition thereof).
It also states "1930's German Express". For one year only maybe, otherwise it represents 1940's Germany, specifically the Third Reich.

So, how is it even possible to make a conscious and/or responsible choice about this period, when we are misinformed about the models?
Online macxlii  
#68 Posted : 12 May 2021 14:41:43(UTC)
macxlii

United States   
Joined: 28/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Fairfax Station, Virginia
Originally Posted by: artfull dodger Go to Quoted Post
Is the modeling of era 2 in the mid to late 1930s still considered taboo? Marklin makes some nice DRG models but......? No troop or other regalia, just loads of tanks, aircraft. Nothing that relates to AH or his party. Just the beautiful trains of that period Mike

If you go to Museums in Germany you may find models of trains, road vehicles and airplanes with the swastika removed but with the spreadeagle left intact. That seems to be the law and a reasonable compromise.

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