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Offline cookee_nz  
#1 Posted : 03 April 2021 11:01:37(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,608
Location: Paremata, Wellington
This topic continues from the original questions as posted here.....

https://www.marklin-user...----Wagon-Lits--and--JSG

Some passenger coaches from the 1950's (and earlier) are suffixed with the letter "J"

The coaches 346/2 and 346/3 are Dining and Sleeping coaches respectively, in Red, for the DSG. (German Sleeping Car Co)

346/2 J and 346/3 J are also Dining and Sleeping but in Blue, for the ISG. So far so good. (International Sleeping Car Co)

Any boxed sets from the same period also use the Suffix "J" to distinguish normal sets containing DSG coaches, vs. with ISG coaches.

For example in 1953, set "SEW 846/4" included the DSG coaches, or by ordering "SEW 846/4 J" the two DSG Red coaches were replaced with the International Blue ones.

So far so good. But my real question is why the letter "J" specifically?

During a review of the catalogues I thought I'd found my answer, twice. In the 1954 catalogue, there it stated "Dining car, with the markings of the International Sleeping Car Co (JSG)" - hence my original question re JSG. My initial conclusion was that the "J" was reference to the JSG. However there is no such entity as the "JSG". Turns out this is clearly a catalogue printing mistake.

I posed it at the club Friday night, and friend Kevin took up the challenge saying he believed it was a mis-print and should be "ISG". This seemed plausible, except that the "J" suffix went back earlier than 1954. And, the "J" has been a consistent code for those variants. But I still wanted to confirm one way or the other.

But then it got more weird, in the 1955 English catalogue, it now became "ISG", consistent with what Kevin had found.

Just to be more confusing, the German 1955 catalogues for the same pages (22 & 23) still say "JSG" Hmmm. Have they not yet noticed the error?

Note that 1956 is the last year the "J" suffix was used, because under the new numbering system from 1957, the coaches all got new 4 digit numbers. The Packaged Sets also were assigned new 4-digit numbers.

Further confusion - in 1950, and ONLY 1950, the catalogue states to use letter "I" for the International version. But just for one year, then changed to "J". Perhaps the I used there was also a misprint? Anyone with 1950 in other languages to confirm?

50-p16 (I).jpg


The question lingers. Why would Märklin use "J", when "I" would seem more correct? So, I started going backward through the catalogues.

All the wagons of the International Co are suffixed "J", and they are all Blue, all the way back to 1936 - and hello, here's a weird thing.

The wording for the English 1936, 1937, and 1938 catalogues for the "J" state "Japanned International Blue"

37-10.jpg


"Japanned" ?? - Japanning is the technique by which a lacquer is applied to an object. From what I could glean from the German forum, this lacquer was applied to protect the lettering of the coaches, but it is also implied that all coaches received the lacquer coating. However, the '36 & '37 catalogues quite specifically imply that only the wagons carrying the "J" suffix are "Japanned International Blue"

The 1938 catalogue also states this for coaches 342 J, 343 J & 344 J, but do not specify it for the longer 352 J, 353 J, & 354 J, even though they also are "International Blue". Is that an omission, or relevant? Don't want to be over-thinking this.

I had to consider whether the "J" code had it's origin as relating to Japanning but I fear that might just be wild co-incidence.

So if any of our esteemed colleagues knows the answer to this, I'm all ears.

Once again, Why did Märklin use the letter "J" to refer to the Blue International Coaches ?

I hope this is interesting to some of you at least even if you don't have an answer BigGrin I've enjoyed researching it and I've also done my best on the German forums but lack of hits may simply be that I'm not phrasing my search request correctly.

I will put the question out to the wider M. community but here is "home" for me and this is where I'll start.

I have posted below some example snips from the relevant pages showing the various JSG, ISG references.

Perhaps a mystery to solve for an Easter puzzle.

346/2

1954 DE JSG

54p22 (JSG) - DE.jpg


1954 SP JSG

54p22 (JSG) - ES.jpg


1954 EN JSG

54p22 (JSG).jpg


1955 DE JSG

55p22 (JSG) - DE.jpg


1955 EN ISG

55p22 (ISG).jpg

Edited by user 03 April 2021 22:05:52(UTC)  | Reason: Added images and rewording

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 03 April 2021 13:16:48(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 274
Location: Michigan, Troy
Good explanations! I was going to be a smarty and say J was for Jaegermeister.
Offline Crazy Harry  
#3 Posted : 03 April 2021 16:11:40(UTC)
Crazy Harry

Canada   
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 397
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Here's a random stab in the dark: Did the printers use "J" instead of "I" so that the letter "I" wouldn't be mistaken for a number "1"?

Harold.
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Offline cookee_nz  
#4 Posted : 03 April 2021 21:49:08(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,608
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Crazy Harry Go to Quoted Post
Here's a random stab in the dark: Did the printers use "J" instead of "I" so that the letter "I" wouldn't be mistaken for a number "1"?

Harold.


I did consider that Harold, but can't see any valid reason to avoid the letter I (which you'll also see I did note was indeed used in the 1950 catalogue) but I do not (yet) recall seeing any actual sets with an I suffix. Several other letters (another topic in the pipeline) but not "I".

In the IT world it's not unusual to find I & O not used to avoid confusion with 1 & 0 but this would not appear to have have been a concern in the 1950's.

Cheers

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
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Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#5 Posted : 03 April 2021 22:27:39(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 235
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
The only reference to "JSG" sleeper cars I could find was in the book

Wilhelm Weirauch, Ernst Blume: Die Eisenbahn-Verkehrsordnung: Vom 16. Mai 1928. Mit allgemeinen Ausführungsbestimmungen sowie dem Internationalen Übereinkommen über den Eisenbahnfrachtverkehr vom 30. Mai 1925 und dem Internationalen Übereinkommen über den Eisenbahn-Personen- und -Gepäckverkehr vom 12. Juni 1925.

See for yourself on Google Books:

UserPostedImage

So there seems to be the possibility that at least in the 1920's the acronym "JSG" was used, so it would not be a mere typo. Unfortunately, I can offer no other help to solve the mystery.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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Offline Purellum  
#6 Posted : 04 April 2021 00:08:16(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

In a similar book from 1938, JSG and DSG were mentioned on page 61; but it doesn't really solve the mystery :-)

https://books.google.dk/...chaft%201938&f=false

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

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Offline Purellum  
#7 Posted : 04 April 2021 00:14:52(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I think I found the answer on the German Wikipedia BigGrin

"Bis heute gibt es noch ältere Schreiber, die anstelle des Großbuchstabens I ein J verwenden (z. B. Jda, Jtalien). Auch bei serifenlosen Schriften wird manchmal ein großes J anstelle eines großen I gesetzt. Ein Grund dafür ist, dass bei derartigen Schriften das große I und das kleine L oft schwer oder gar nicht unterscheidbar sind, vor allem wenn beide Buchstaben nebeneinanderstehen (etwa in Jll, Jller, Jlmenau, Jllustrierte im Unterschied zu Ill, Iller, Ilmenau, Illustrierte)."

Google translate: "Even today there are older scribes who use a J instead of the capital I (e.g. Jda, Jtalien). In sans serif fonts, too, a capital J is sometimes used instead of a capital I. One reason for this is that the uppercase I and the lowercase L are often difficult or impossible to distinguish in such fonts, especially when both letters are next to each other"

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline cookee_nz  
#8 Posted : 04 April 2021 03:08:22(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,608
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Hi Per, I'll certainly take that as a plausible explanation, but will leave it open for input from others before inscribing it to a stone tablet just to see what other explanations and theories may surface.

Thanks heaps. ThumpUp

I've since found the German version of the 1950 catalogue (I knew I had it somewhere) and I note that indeed, they use "J" unlike the English version with "I" shown in my first comment.

It would seem that the "I" in the 1950 English version is an error

50DE-p16 (J).jpg

50DE-EN-p16.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
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Offline Unholz  
#9 Posted : 04 April 2021 07:21:02(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,270
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post

Google translate: "Even today there are older scribes who use a J instead of the capital I (e.g. Jda, Jtalien). In sans serif fonts, too, a capital J is sometimes used instead of a capital I. One reason for this is that the uppercase I and the lowercase L are often difficult or impossible to distinguish in such fonts, especially when both letters are next to each other"


Absolutely correct, but I had already tried to make this clear to you here: Wink https://www.marklin-user...its--and--JSG#post630379
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