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Offline cookee_nz  
#1 Posted : 02 April 2021 09:37:45(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,616
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Someone can surely solve this mystery because Mr Google can't and my most creative internet searches have come up wanting.

DSG refers to the Deutsche Schlafwagen- und Speisewagengesellschaft - ie loosely Sleeping & Dining Car Co. Later shortened to Deutsche Service-Gesellschaft der Bahn.

Then we have The International Sleeping Car Co - generally referred to in French as "Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits"

But.... Märklin also refer to the International wagons as "JSG", and I'm puzzled why.

What does the 'J' stand for??

Thanks in advance

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
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Offline cookee_nz  
#2 Posted : 02 April 2021 09:59:14(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,616
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Update - threw it out to the guys at the club tonight, the mystery is partially solved. Turns out it's "ISG". Which solves one question, but creates another.

Let's see if someone with an interest in M's older models (ie pre 1960) can suggest why the 'J' is relevant / central to my question?



Cookee
Wellington
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Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#3 Posted : 02 April 2021 12:27:45(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 354
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
I think I will go out on a limb...is this an example of which you speak?

UserPostedImage

https://www.railwaywonde...rld.com/wagons-lits.html

It seems to be a "Germanisation" of CIWL which may have been used when there was debate over who controlled the sleeping car business, especially as the trains crossed multiple borders.

Possibly? Blink It is a start anywayCool

(edit) the CIWL archive site also has some pictures of coaches lettered in Russian and Italian, so translations were used for some trains apparently.

https://www.wagons-lits-diffusio...m/en/album/photos-ciwl/
Jimmy T
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Offline cookee_nz  
#4 Posted : 02 April 2021 12:54:21(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,616
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Good try Jimmy but off the mark in this case. Sorry
Cookee
Wellington
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Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#5 Posted : 02 April 2021 12:56:30(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 354
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
."...missed it by that much" LOL
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; KLVM; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
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Offline Unholz  
#6 Posted : 02 April 2021 13:47:24(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,286
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post

Let's see if someone with an interest in M's older models (ie pre 1960) can suggest why the 'J' is relevant / central to my question?

This is probably not a purely railway-related problem, but has to do with (older) handwriting. Wink

As correctly stated, ISG stands for Internationale Schlafwagen-Gesellschaft. When this name is printed, the abbreviation is clearly ISG. However, in traditional German handwriting, the "I" did not appear or look like an "I", but resembled a "J". Thus, it appeared as JSG. Many people who had an I at the beginning of their first name were also accustomed to spelling it with a J, for instance Jda instead of Ida, Jngrid instead of Ingrid, Jrene instead of Irene, etc.

I hope that I could add to the confusion. BigGrin

Example even in current computer-print: https://toggenburg.swiss...e-b19f-df3c4aad5d62.html
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 02 April 2021 13:54:22(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,516
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
But.... Märklin also refer to the International wagons as "JSG", and I'm puzzled why.

What does the 'J' stand for??

Hi Steve

The ISG is for International Schlafwagen Gesellschaft: a translation to the CIWL (Compagnie Internationale des Wagons lits)
Here is a Märklin production of the 1951 CIWL or ISG with a SK800 loco
SK846 4J IMG_3563.JPG

The German equivalent is the DSG
Here is a Märklin reproduction of an DSG dining car (the one in red) dating about 1959.

3126 IMG_2010.JPG

Here is a version around 1952 with both the sleeping car and the dining car- both red or the DSG Deutsche Schlafwagen Gesellschaft from NS time (Era II)
SK846 4H IMG_3549.JPG

Cheers
Jean
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Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 02 April 2021 17:16:11(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,125
Location: Montreal, QC
The company was the Compagnie Internationale des Waggons-Lits, which was a Paris based operator of international night trains in cooperation with the then recently nationalized railway companies. Because the trains ran through multiple countries, this international venture was more effective than any effort by any single country's railroad could be. The company was known as CIWL in Belgium and France and as International Schlafwagen Gesellschaft in Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

Some larger countries also had domestic night train services. During WWI, the Germans organized their own services into the Middle Europe Sleeping and Dining Car Company (Mitropa), which served Germany and the Austrian Empire.
After WWII, Mitropa was split between East and West German operations and the West German operation went on to become the Deutsche Schlafwagen und Speisewagen Gesellschaft (D.S.G.).
The sleeping car portion of both CIWL and DSG ended in 1971 with the introduction of the Trans Euro Night (TEN) Pool. CIWL continued to exist as a luxury train/hotel service and DSG continued as the operator of dining coaches on German and some international connections. Switzerland had a similar dining coach service since the turn of the century, known as S.S.G. (Schweizerische Speisewagen Gesellschaft) which has been replaced over time at the SBB by Mitropa Schweiz, Passagio, Elvetino and other companies over time.

Regards

Mike C

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Offline cookee_nz  
#9 Posted : 03 April 2021 07:44:48(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,616
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Guys, Mike, Jean & Stefan, thanks for the responses.

You're all kind of on the right track but the reason for my query leads to a totally different topic so I'll start a new thread in the collectors corner tonight or tomorrow and continue there.

Thanks




Cookee
Wellington
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