OK Kimball, let's look at just one example. Did you know that in 1986, the AC section of the Roco catalog was limited to 4-6 pages with 3 to 4 loks on each page. That meant that there were a total of 12 to 24 loks out of the selection of over 100 that were available in AC. The current catalog has AC versions of almost every single locomotive in the catalog.
The same can be said for loks from LS Models, ACME, RailTop to name just a few.

How do you think that Roco went from #6 behind Maerklin, Trix, Fleischmann, Lima and Rivarossi to being #2 behind Maerklin?

My oldest Roco lok is from 1984. It still runs as well as it did on day 1. It was a Re 4/4IV. that's 25 years with no need for anything more than routine maintenance.

If you want to look up the exact figures, I am sure that you can find them on the web.

My assertions may be meaningless to you, but they are not to the thousands of modellers who have added Roco loks to their collections over the years.

Another quick example. If Maerklin would have announced AC models of the new Trix 482/185.5 in the Cargo and Crossrail liveries, I would not have ordered the same loks from Roco. That is lost sales.

and then they go and screw up the models of the Re 4/4II (37342/37456) and lose more sales to Roco and Hag.

That is why the company is in trouble. That's 1000 Euros out of their pockets from one little guy (me). Now multiply that for the other dissatisfied modellers who have also done the same.

I rest my case.

Regards

Mike C

Mike stick to the topic please[}:)] This one is about Märklin finance.

It now seems to me that size does matter after all.

Pieter

Sometimes it seems that they have the model makers doing the accounts and the accountants making the models. Maybe they should all just switch offices!

Ray

And neither had I. But I agree, it was a good one!

Well said James!

Actually scale was not part of the problem at all.
I totallty agree with James.

I was just pointing the fact that Mike C often calls 1:100 scale coaches : " basic coach ".
You cannnot say "basic" because it is 1:100 .
1:100 models of coaches are not necessarly "basic" .
That's why I said people talking like this are probably making hotchpotch with the " basic toys" of their childhood ( unconsciously), which were truly " basic " .
I'm not far to believe that it's also the reason why today they prefer 1:87 coachs ....& rejecting those 1:100 models ( even 1:93.5)...
....so basic !

For my part , it will never come to my mind to say" basic" for just this difference in scale...( I could do it because of my "basic" English , only...)

How question? I don't understand the meaning of this. I run 2-rail and I care for detail. Should I find another forum or what are you saying?

If you have a question for me. Please ask.

Best regards
Søren

I dont think detailing had anything to do with Marklin's woes.I dont think rivet counters make up 1% of Marklin's clientele.

It boils down to price.And price alone.I spend a lot of time at my dealer.And he caters for any make out there.And countless times ive seen people walk in there with kids in tow(potential clientele)and they browse the shelves....and the first Marklin loco they put their eyes on has a R5000 price tag.Thats an monthly instalment on a rather large house over here.

And they buy a RC plane...

To add salt to the wounds....1 shelf on you can look at gorgeously detailed Atlas american diesels for R800.An Athearn BB could be had for R4000...this years run of the Marklin BB wouldve sold for R11000.

And that is the problem.Marklin adopted the stance of trying to make too much money per locomotive.They should adopt the Indian way of doing bussiness.Instead of selling 1000 locos a year at a 100 euro mark up.....they should deflate the bloody prices and sell 1000000 locos at a 10 euro mark up.

I take it from myself...i will buy a loco at R3000,but spit on the ground for a R5K loco.

Its all in the price.And when i bought my slim turnouts...i walked out of the shop with 20 turnouts for R3000.Similar money wouldve bought me double that amount of turnouts and 50m of track...had i gone with Atlas.And have you guys ever looked at the Atlas rail.Yeah,cheap packaging....but better looking track.Much better looking in fact,and much more prototypical.

I would love to know what it costs Marklin to make a BR41.And a BR44...tooling thats been around for ages,and the same wheelsets as many other locos.Yet look at the prices.

And then there is the quality issues.Leaves a bad taste in the mouth.Im paying for a Rolls Royce,and im getting a gawdamn Chrysler PT cruiser.

Now...Roco was smart.Im seriously looking into some of their AC stuff.They are getting expensive too.But its Marklin's prices of 3 years ago.They are going to make a killing.

Good points monster.

Marklin prices are obviously going to be higher for metal (I hope) and quality, but of late they've been prohibitive. And marketing stuff like Platinum Crocs of a few years ago, well, I'm thrilled for someone who can afford these, but why devote resources to such fluff? Prices keep me (and I am blessed to make decent money in a safe job) from buying some of the bigger locs. Overall it makes the Finance Minister ask "why so expensive" and have to defend M quality etc, but even I have doubts lately the pricier stuff is really worth it or if I'm getting gouged for the Marklin name.

Hehehehe,wealthy im not.I like to buy smart.And at this stage there isnt a single manufacturer in Europe that will get my vote.Roco will go the same way as Marklin.Mark my words.If you start flogging BR44's at 400Euro,,,you can keep it thank you very much.

And over here,im not the only guy thinking like this.Look at the accessories.Turnout motors thats the biggest load of sh-te ive ever seen in my life...sells for stupid money.Id rather get the Atlas one.

Same goes for signals.Look at the prices of transformers.I bought a Titan transformer,that will pull 30 more lights than a 32VA Marklin,for nearly half the price of a Marklin one.

I refered to locos in my original post,but thats only half the story.Price is everything.Instead of trying to rip me a new asshole with a 579euro BR05 with a wooden box...i cant see that loco being any more expensive to build than a BR44.200 euro my friend relates to over R3000 here.It just doesnt make sense.I never met this Carl dude or looked at his pictures.He means nothing to me....bar an exccessive price tag.

Make that train 400euro....and i will order right now.I mean...over 700 euro for a bloody BB.They are smoking their socks.9m of flex track....is R1600 here.If it was any other track id buy 30m and have change.

Im sorry...Marklin got too expensive for my taste.Roco is not far behind.Drop the price by 30% and lets see them fly off the shelves.

If i take my own bussiness as an example.Ive cut rates by 25% the last 2 months.Yes,im making a lot less money.But im still making money.The guys that didnt adapt have trucks standing in their yards.Dunno about you guys,but id rather make R10 a day than loose R1000.

Maybe you are participating in the wrong forum...

Mike: I agree with Alonso. Perhaps you should join the Roco users net. I disagree that it is a "small minority" that wants to make their layouts fit into available space. Actually, I had left the hobby because of people who took compliance to a religion (when I was using US 2 rail and dealing with NMRA conformance zealots). It was Marklin that "opened my eyes" that I could have a layout that fit the available space and it was ACCEPTABLE!!!! I could have FUN again!

I have only one R1 curve on my layout (to solve a design constraint) and it is not because of that that I prefer 1:93 coaches. In short mainline runs and short stations (who can model a scale length station) so the forced perspective of the shorter length coaches fits very well with the shortened stations. All of model railroading is a compromise, and this is a compromise I can live with.

Not at all, i really appreciate Mike and i respect him as member of this forum, but if M makes him feel sad then...
If the previous statement has offended you Mike i apologise.

Riekus,

I agree with you, price is a problem. BUT I was there when you got that Big Boy, you wanted one and you got it. Before you destroyed it (the fall not the weathering, that was great the best.

Now, you like that BR23, it looks great and you & I will each get one.


Pieter

Spoetnik i agree with you on the developing of the "NICE-TO-HAVES", for me i think that with the developing of the "JOLANDA" is another example of this, i mean it is nice, but what does it have to do with railroading, it is expensive. I can afford it no question about it, thank god for my income, but when u think of it, i can buy 4-5 MFX Steam locomotives and have more for my dollar, and guess what it has something to do with railroading. My take with MARKLIN is they really need to move people around with-in the company, you know shake things up, get fresh blood, get better RD people on-board, and instead of making a BOAT that coast some serious pennies, get them to make the models a little better, or at least make stuff that us MARKLIN users really want, perhaps they can come on here and read this stuff and then put their money where they know we will spend it! Don't get me wrong the "JOLANDA" is probably stunning, but i would never spend that kind of money on it, i am sure there will be a few that will, but my guess is many will just pass on it and buy more locomotives and such!

It is not the first time they introduce a replica of an old ship model. There was the "Victoria" 2002/2003 for example.

It is not for me. It is not for you. But if it wasn't for anyone at all I think there wouldn't have been a follow-up on the "Victoria".

This one goes out to Ron, Alonso and friends...

A rivet counter is a person who insists that every detail be 100% accurate.

A rivet counter is a person who cannot have two coaches with the same numbers in his collection, never mind in the same consist.

A rivet counter is a person who won't buy Maerklin because the bogies have an off-centre pivot point.

I am none of the above. Yes, I expect my models to be accurate. Hell, we're talking about a model that costs up to $500 (Lok) or $100 (coach or car). We're not talking about some $19.99 toy here. All that I ask is that the model look like the prototype (at layout distance). I get pissed off when Maerklin uses the wrong form when the had the right one in the vaults. I get pissed off when repeated coaches in white allow light to shine through the outer walls.
For the money they charge, I expect Maerklin to be among the best.

As far as my predilection for 1:87. One main reason for this was the fact that there were not too many Swiss models in the reduced scale. At first there was only the 4066/4068. Later came the Eurofima and EWIV coaches. By then, I had discovered Roco's EWIIs, EWIVs, Eurofimas and so on. Add to that, Lima/Hag EWIs, Liliput EWIIIs and so on and I drifted away from Maerklin.

That being said, this does not mean that I don't love Maerklin. It means that Maerklin was not responding to what I wanted to model.
Since then, I have added quite a bit of Maerklin coaches. I like to use them for nighttime running. They are easier to illuminate, the shorter cars mean longer trains which look better in the dark.
At this moment, my layout is disassembled. I have a short test oval of C-Track, which is more suited to the shorter coach lengths.

My 1:87 consists look amazing on display. Ever so often, I set up a layout on the floor in the basement where I can run 14 coaches behind a Lok. Thankfully I can make the space to do so. Maybe one day, I will be able to make a U-Shaped permanent layout where I can run a seven coach consist.

I can understand those who do not have the space and are limited to tight radii are defensive because they are worried that Maerklin might no longer make product that fits their needs. Have I ever once said that Maerklin should abandon 1:100 or the narrower radii? No.

Yet it is suggested that I go to another forum.

I can read and appreciate postings about small layouts, 24cm coaches, old M-Track. Why is it that you feel so threatened by my comments about 1:87?

I never said that 1:87 was the sole reason that Maerklin was in trouble. There are many contributing factors.

It just happens that overlooking a large segment of the market is not good for business. If M would have decided to make 1:100 and 1:87 and not gone 1:93, I think that sales would have been better. Look at all the interest from AC users about the Trix ICE 1 and other recently announced models. Somebody at M decided that 1:93 was the maximum length that could be tolerated on R1, and so M made the decision to go with that length rather than full 1:87. Even if we accept that compromise, why did they have to decide to market the new coaches with interior decor that pales in comparison to the earlier 24 and 27cm coaches. If they would have chosen multicolour details, then it would have at least placed the M coaches as somewhere between GFN (Fleischmann) and Roco in terms of detail and quality.

I am sorry, but I think that for the year 2009 and the prices that we are asked to pay, we should expect the interior details of a Maerklin coach to be better designed than the equivalent from a Liliput coach from the 1960s.

Why can Roco, LSM, ACME, etc have models that have reproductions of the reservation panels in the compartment windows but the M model not even have the windows or doors?

I give M props for the red taillights that can be added to almost any 1:93 coach, but overall, I was not impressed with the production.

My beef with Maerklin, and it seems to come up more and more often, is that they do not take the time to properly develop and build the models to their full potential. This applies to the new coaches, to the Gottardo, and to many other new models that have come to the market in the last few years.

...and that is where M continues to lose as modellers discover the other products that are available to them.

You are entitled to whatever gives you pleasure in your hobby.
I personally sometimes miss the sound of the metal 24cm coaches on M Track. The plastic coaches are not quire the same.

Still, I don't think that any of this is grounds to tell anyone to get out of the Forum.

It was never my intent to start the 1:100 vs 1:87 war again, only to suggest that M could have better results if it marketed to all potential customers. I have been critical of some aspects of M models, but equally praising features of other M models. I have treated M models the same as models from any other manufacturer.

Hopefully M will overcome some of these issues as part of an eventual restructuring. Hopefully the clientele will allow them to evolve with the marketplace rather than demanding that they concentrate only on the same mentality that has been in place for the last half century and hopefully the model train community will come out the better for it.

As far as leaving the forum, I am already involved in many other forums and I will continue to participate where and when I choose to. Some may agree with my views, some may disagree and others may learn from them and yet others may choose to participate in a free dialogue about some of the aspects of my postings, from which hopefully a better understanding of model trains may emerge.

Respectfully yours,

Mike C

There are so many issues here and this runs the likelyhood of the well worn 2 rail vs 3 rail debate.

Most Marklin modellers don't give a Euro as to whether the item is strickly prototypical, they are buying it because they like it and it is Marklin.

Marklin has not failed because of scale accurracy. They failed for other reasons.

John

About prices ,
Roco models :
The new model from Roco of a French 231 steamer - ( 4-6-2 for the US- "Pacific style" )is announced . Catalog price is 630 E with Locksound .
All plastic body .
( motor inside the tender ..... [:(] )
In conclusion :
I have reserved my Marklin BR 05 & Insider BR 39 !

BTW : Someone here said Roco is manufactuting in Czek republic . It's true only for a small part of the production. What was made before in Salzbourg mainly has been transferred to Asian subcontractors .

I wonder if M will still make the class 39,that one is a fantastic steamer

You blokes dont read well.Im not comparing an Atlas loco to a Marklin.Im saying that if a potential customer walks into a shop.A NEW customer,that wants to start the hobby, he sees a Marklin loco for 3 times the price of an Atlas loco.Ludmilla sells for R2900 here....ummm an Atlas for R800.You can nearly buy 4 of them.So people do.

Yes i know our Rand faired better to the dollar than the Euro,but even in the US....500 dollar for a loco is simply insane.

I had a look at the new Athearn BigBoys that were brought in last year.They sold for R4000 and flew off the shelves in 4 days flat.If you want to compare apples to apples...there you go.I can buy 2 Athearns for the price of one MArklin.

And what do i get?I get correct scale wheels.I get the same motor,and i get the option of 3 different models.All yours for 400 dollar,and next to a Marklin BB you can immediately see that there is more detail on the Athearn.Running lights the toot.And it had better sound.

So if Athearn can make a BB and sell it at a profit at 400 dollar....explain a 700 euro plus price tag from Marklin to me.

The dealer over here have 3 Bellingrodt BR59's......at R8000.Lol,they are sitting there.

As ive said earlier,ROCO,HAG and Brawa all jumped the bandwagon.They will all see their asses.Wanna take a bet?If the economy doesnt pick up within the next year or so......watch the sparks fly.

Make no mistake,i love my Marklin stuff,and im too far in to turn back now.I have no choice but to love it.But i grind my teeth every time i run the BR03.And i have 3 of them.I wont even get into the BR45 fiasco again.What a bad design.

And we should not stare blindly at just loco prices.

Ditto here, On order.

Nice Steven,any chance you might write a review or article on the insider class 39?

Lutz,
I agree.
It was also revealed by the insolvency commissionar that the overall turnover of 128 million euros almost 13 million euros was used for consultancy fees.
He described this, when you look at these figures you cannot stop crying.
His assistant Fritz Zanger said that the company with a reduced workforce could re-ignite the company,
there had been production problems out of china, sceptism from dealers and internal critics said: Model trains are produced with emotions and the consultans looked only at figures.
It should be also noted that both consultans had been in their own insolvency crisis a year earlier and had no experience in little trains.