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Offline hxmiesa  
#1 Posted : 26 June 2020 07:55:51(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,025
Location: Spain
Question; Can a digital (mfx?) loco be set up /tweaked digitally, to behave differentely when used in analogue mode? (Specifically; higher speed)

The question in its longer version; I have a rather modern BR151 -probably from a broken up starterset. I dont know the ref., and it came w.o. a box. But it certainly looks MWOB (Mint WithOut Box! BigGrin ). Seller assured me that it was mfx. (or maybe it was mfx+; How can I know?)
It runs beautifully, but on my analogue layout, all trains must run with the same voltage-setting, with each loco individually adjusted with pairs of antiparallel diodes in series with the motor, in order to slow some of them down.
But this one... Albeit very smooooth running, it is somewhat slow.
Could it be set up to run faster if I had an MS2, or some other means of accessing the parameters of the deco?
If so, what parameters are to be changed, and what would be the easiest and/or cheapest way for me to do that?

In hope of a positive answer... Blink
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline pederbc  
#2 Posted : 26 June 2020 11:04:08(UTC)
pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
Hi Henrik,

I’m pretty sure that adjusting cv5 (max speed) will also affect the analog max speed. The basic cv variables are:

Cv1 - locomotive address
Cv2 - start speed (lowest speed)
Cv3 - acceleration
Cv4 - braking
Cv5 - max speed
Cv6 - mid speed

Think of the mid speed as adjusting the speed curve. Anyway, it’s the cv5 you should change.

”The Dane in Spain plays mainly with the train” 😎 (sorry, an outburst of the poet inside of me)

Best regards, Peder
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 26 June 2020 12:01:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,799
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: pederbc Go to Quoted Post
Cv6 - mid speed
mfx decoders usually do not have a mid speed variable. There is a speed curve table with 16 values, the default settings are progressive.
Setting a linear curve or pushing the middle even up a bit further could make the loco run faster.

Max speed is usually set to the maximum ex works.

If the loco came from a private seller then maybe they played with max speed and other settings before selling it.

There are some decoder settings specific for analogue operation and they may have potential to make the loco a bit faster.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline hxmiesa  
#4 Posted : 26 June 2020 14:45:01(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,025
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

If the loco came from a private seller then maybe they played with max speed and other settings before selling it.
There are some decoder settings specific for analogue operation and they may have potential to make the loco a bit faster.

Even though the loc was bought from a hobby-shop (as a 2nd hand item), there is no way of knowing what happened to it before. I only know that it has hardly seen any use.

I wonder what other decoder setting (apart from speed) that could be beneficial in analog operation? Lights? Sounds? Smoke? (Not in THIS particular case, of course) -What CV´s are you thinking of?

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 26 June 2020 17:32:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,799
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
What CV´s are you thinking of?
There is one CV that defines the AC voltage when the loco should start moving, there is another that defines the AC voltage when the loco should reach maximum speed.
Decreasing the former or the latter might make it faster.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline ocram63_uk  
#6 Posted : 26 June 2020 18:20:36(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 371
Location: England, Suffolk
Tom, you mention CVs when referring to mfx decoders.
I've been told that the CV concept can't be applied to mfx as they do not exist. This is the biggest problem I have when trying to change mfx settings with my ECOS The basic settings have to be left like the factory sets them if I want the loco to work properly.
With mfx you have a few changes that you can apply. I don't know if with a CS 2/3 things are better
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 29 June 2020 10:12:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,799
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
Tom, you mention CVs when referring to mfx decoders.
I've been told that the CV concept can't be applied to mfx as they do not exist.
With both concepts you have many values you can change to adjust the behaviour of the decoder.
With DCC they are called Configuration Variables (CVs), with mfx you have the Configuration Space where you can set values in various groups.
The CS2 shows the corresponding CV numbers when showing the mfx configuration space. In most cases the variables are shared, so making changes in DCC affects the mfx behaviour and vice versa.

With the ECoS you can set many values using the loco properties. There is no CV screen for mfx decoders.
Please check all pages on the Advanced tab (the AC page above the one selected here looks promising):
UserPostedImage
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline hxmiesa  
#8 Posted : 17 July 2020 07:38:09(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,025
Location: Spain
Can these CV´s be changed with an MS2?
-or what would be the most economic way of accessing these parameters?
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 17 July 2020 09:21:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,799
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Can these CV´s be changed with an MS2?
Definitely maybe. If the decoder can be programmed using MM or DCC the changes can probably be made with an MS2, too. Just disable mfx in the MS2.

There is no cheap solution that can program all mfx decoders.
For decoders that are mfx/MM only, you need mfx to change the settings for analogue mode.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline hxmiesa  
#10 Posted : 17 July 2020 10:13:42(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,025
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
There is no cheap solution that can program all mfx decoders.
For decoders that are mfx/MM only, you need mfx to change the settings for analogue mode.

One of them is a BR151 (probably from a new-ish starter set). I suspect this is a pure MFX loco. Would the MS2 be able to change the CVs here?

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 17 July 2020 12:28:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,799
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
One of them is a BR151 (probably from a new-ish starter set). I suspect this is a pure MFX loco.
Märklin sold no "pure mfx" locos.
Very little can be changed if it is only MM/mfx. You should have all options if it is MM/DCC/mfx. Some locos support DCC, even though it is not mentioned in the catalogue.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline hxmiesa  
#12 Posted : 01 August 2020 13:48:27(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,025
Location: Spain
So... I finally got myself an MS2! My first digital control equipment. (not true, I actually have a DELTA controller from a start-set)
And I am of course busy fiddling around with the settings of different locos.
The worst offender (a BR151) already runs better after a factory reset of the deco.

Q: There is nothing that I can do with DELTA locos, right? It seems as if it doesn't matter what I try to change, in analog it still behaves as always. Can you guys confirm that?

Q2: I have a really nice new E41 from PIKO. DCC (methinks?). Although it allows me to change all kinds of things in the CV´s, I haven't really achieved that it behaves differently in analogue.
Of course my experience with this is 0, I can't even find a list of CV addresses specific for this lok, or even what decos PIKO use.
Another Q, also for this PIKO lok; Apparently it has red tail lights in digital (F1 and F2). First time I´ve seen it light up. But in analog it doesn't activate. (Only the front light changes with direction). Would it be possible to program the decoder to activate the red tail light in analog, depending on direction?
(In case of a negative, would it be possible to activate ONE of the taillights always? It seems like CV13 could do something like that...)

Final Q:
Quote:
There is one CV that defines the AC voltage when the loco should start moving, there is another that defines the AC voltage when the loco should reach maximum speed.
Decreasing the former or the latter might make it faster.

What CV addresses would that be? Haven't found them in any list yet.

Thanks in advance.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline hxmiesa  
#13 Posted : 01 August 2020 21:57:38(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,025
Location: Spain
Okay, so, sorry; im answering myself here;

Yes, the red lights could be turned permanently on using CV13. Still, it would be nice to have them alternate with the headlights.

But the speed settings... Even though I found some pretty thorough CV-guide of PIKO´s PLUX22 decos, I haven't been able to adjust anything regarding running characteristics.
It doesn't take into account any settings of CV2-3-4-5-6 for use in analog, nor has it been possible for me to use CVs 106 etc-. for the voltage characteristics. (CV103-4-5-6) doesn't seem to be valid for my loco. I wonder what incarnation of the PIKO decoder it is...)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline hxmiesa  
#14 Posted : 05 August 2020 14:11:47(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,025
Location: Spain
I´m still trying to wrestle out a better analogue performance of my PIKO E41.
I thought it was a PLUX22 or PLUX16 deco, but it identifies itself as 85 (Uhlenbrock), with Software revision 5. (CVs 8 and 7).

Can anybody more-or-less identify the deco from these photos;
IMG_20200805_140207[1].jpg
IMG_20200805_140102[1].jpg
(Sorry, I cant really identify any text on the boards or the chips Blink )
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline TEEWolf  
#15 Posted : 05 August 2020 19:45:14(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
Tom, you mention CVs when referring to mfx decoders.
I've been told that the CV concept can't be applied to mfx as they do not exist. This is the biggest problem


Who told you that?
Here are the CV listings for mLD/mSD and mLD3/mSD3 from Maerklin.

https://www.maerklin.de/...ionen/CV-Tabelle-mSD.pdf

https://www.maerklin.de/...onen/CV-Tabelle-mSD3.pdf

Do you think Maerklin publishs CV listings for a decoder, which you cannot use?

Here is also an instruction for updating mSD3 decoder (even in English)

https://www.maerklin.de/...mationen/msd3-Update.pdf

Here is the website from Maerklin with all the informations about decoder updates, CV listings, etc. for all its decoder back to the C90 decoder. Unfortunately (as so often) website is not in English available.

https://www.maerklin.de/...e-informationen/decoder/
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Offline Purellum  
#16 Posted : 05 August 2020 20:45:27(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,244
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Here are the CV listings for mLD/mSD and mLD3/mSD3 from Maerklin.


It would be nice if you also posted the CV lists for the 100+ MFX decoders that are not mLD/mSD or mLD3/mSD3;
instead of assuming that all MFX decoders are mLD/mSD or mLD3/mSD3................. Crying

Per.

Cool



If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 05 August 2020 20:59:24(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,799
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
Tom, you mention CVs when referring to mfx decoders.
I've been told that the CV concept can't be applied to mfx as they do not exist. This is the biggest problem


Who told you that?
Here are the CV listings for mLD/mSD and mLD3/mSD3 from Maerklin.
You can see that those CV lists apply to DCC. Those CV numbers are useless when changing decoder settings using mfx.
Those CVs do not apply to mfx. The DCC CV concept does not apply to mfx decoders.

There are variables that can changed for mfx and for DCC. But the concept is different.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline TEEWolf  
#18 Posted : 05 August 2020 21:02:57(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Here are the CV listings for mLD/mSD and mLD3/mSD3 from Maerklin.


It would be nice if you also posted the CV lists for the 100+ MFX decoders that are not mLD/mSD or mLD3/mSD3;
instead of assuming that all MFX decoders are mLD/mSD or mLD3/mSD3................. Crying

Per.
Cool


This is always your problem. You do not read and understand. Read my last post again. I wrote

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Here is the website from Maerklin with all the informations about decoder updates, CV listings, etc. for all its decoder back to the C90 decoder. Unfortunately (as so often) website is not in English available.


Here the website again. Scroll down to the adequate headings.

https://www.maerklin.de/...e-informationen/decoder/

https://www.maerklin.de/...ionen/Codiertabelle2.pdf

BTW all these CV tables you find in the Maerklin books digitally driving with the CS 3. They are listed over 9 pages plus 3 pages overview of all old digital previously offered devices and the possibilities how to use them still today. These books art# 03082 and 03083 (German versions) are highly recommended even for those who do not own a CS 3.

https://www.maerklin.de/...3-software-20/downloads/

Sorry, because you are understanding German I forgot these antique informations:

https://www.maerklin.de/...ogrammieren_mit_6021.pdf

https://www.maerklin.de/..._m84_Signale_D-DK_lo.pdf

https://www.maerklin.de/...faq/Technik-Tipp-303.pdf

For the technical tip 303 scroll downto page 3 and 4.
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Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 05 August 2020 21:17:00(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,799
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Here the website again. Scroll down to the adequate headings.
Excellent. Under which heading do we find information about the Uhlenbrock decoder shown in post #14?

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Purellum  
#20 Posted : 05 August 2020 21:36:10(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,244
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Excellent. Under which heading do we find information about the Uhlenbrock decoder shown in post #14?


Yes, and all the pre-DCC MFX-decoders that now seems to have CVs that can be programmed with code-switches.............. LOL

The most funny part is actually that it's now me who don't read and understand Laugh LOL Laugh LOL Laugh

Per.

Cool



If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
H0
Offline ocram63_uk  
#21 Posted : 05 August 2020 22:46:02(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 371
Location: England, Suffolk
I was as told so on the ESU forum by a couple of German guys. MFX and CVs are not applicable. I had to use the graphical UI on the Ecos to change settings on an MFX decoder.
Offline TEEWolf  
#22 Posted : 06 August 2020 15:34:06(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
I was as told so on the ESU forum by a couple of German guys. MFX and CVs are not applicable. I had to use the graphical UI on the Ecos to change settings on an MFX decoder.


Thanks. Well, it is possible to program a mfx decoder with a CS. Has the advantage you must not open the loco and taking off the decoder from the loco's interface. Also you cannot destroy the decoder pins connecting the decoder to the interfaces of programmer or loco. But because of longer transferred data packages between CS and decoder (read this somewhere) the transfer shall be more secure. I tried this way once and I gave up, because it is horrible complicated and no explanations anywhere. Also it needs 1 to 2 hours to transfer the data between a CS and a decoder. Taking the mDT3 programming stick the transfer is done within minutes or seconds.
Offline TEEWolf  
#23 Posted : 06 August 2020 15:43:37(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,447
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Here the website again. Scroll down to the adequate headings.
Excellent. Under which heading do we find information about the Uhlenbrock decoder shown in post #14?


No idea about Uhlenbrock. Guess in the Internet Uhlenbrock is providing its own CV tables. Who is searching, who will do his findings.Laugh

But for you some further informations for the Märklin mLD/3, mSD/3 mfx decoders.

https://www.maerklin.de/...ische_Daten_online_D.pdf

https://www.maerklin.de/...Zusatzanleitung_0716.pdf
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Offline hxmiesa  
#24 Posted : 14 September 2020 20:24:54(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,025
Location: Spain
I´ve got myself a couple of "new" loks. (older material bought 2nd hand, but some of the most modern digital Märklin looks that I have, anyway...)
Of course I only RUN them in analogue, but I want to change some parameters. I only have an MS2 (soft 3.55 methinks, very new) to do it!
One is an "fx" (37030) lok.
The other one is a full-blown mfx.

Question; Why can't I change the CV registers? -any address I want to change has the initial value of "0", and it doesn't seem to make any difference what value I enter.
-Of course the mfx doesnt let me get to the CVs at all, until I blocked the mfx protocol on my MS2...

Examples of what I want to do; Turn off the F1 (smoke). -it is defualt ON in analogue mode, and as the loko came with one installed (and I dont use it) I want to force F1 off. (WIth the Uhlenbock decoders in my nice new PIKO loks, this can be done... (via CV13))
For the mfx one I would like to turn certain lights on default, but only the headlight F0 is operating in analogue mode.

Thanks in advance for any help forthcoming. Blushing



Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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