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Offline Ranjit  
#1 Posted : 07 August 2020 06:48:38(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Hi All...

A quick stupid question. Do you need control boxes (7072, 7210, 7211, etc.) to control solenoids, signals, lighting, etc. or can you do without them?

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
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"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 07 August 2020 08:47:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Ranjit Go to Quoted Post
A quick stupid question. Do you need control boxes (7072, 7210, 7211, etc.) to control solenoids, signals, lighting, etc. or can you do without them?
You don't need them.
As an analogue guy, you can switch turnouts by holding the blank ends of the wires together. Or switch by hand. Or use contact switches from the electronics supplier of your trust.
An a digital guy, you can install decoders that replace the control boxes.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#3 Posted : 07 August 2020 09:19:13(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
Originally Posted by: Ranjit Go to Quoted Post
Hi All...

A quick stupid question. Do you need control boxes (7072, 7210, 7211, etc.) to control solenoids, signals, lighting, etc. or can you do without them?

Cheers,
Ranjit


You need always electronic control to switch signals and motor.
Also switchable to control lighting.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 07 August 2020 09:27:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
You need always electronic control to switch signals and motor.
Hear, hear!
I can do it with my finger without electronic control... Wink

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Ranjit  
#5 Posted : 07 August 2020 09:57:37(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Hey Tom and Anders... Great to hear from both of you !! The quick stupid question was actually stupid. I did not frame it properly. The quick stupid question again is: Do you need control boxes (7072, 7210, 7211, etc.) to control solenoids, signals, lighting, etc. or can you do without them in a digital layout? All this while, I have been controlling these devices manually in an analogue layout. As I am embarking on building a brand new digital layout, hence my stupid question. It seems that I don't need to have these control boxes provided I install decoders as Tom has explained. One more new thing I have learned about Marklin digital layouts.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline ocram63_uk  
#6 Posted : 07 August 2020 10:07:21(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
in my limited experience even with a digital layout you can use the control boxes you mention.
Using decoders or other digital amenities costs money compared to these cute little boxes.
Plus every decoder drains a bit of power from the control unit.
Depends on size of layout and money :-)
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H0
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 07 August 2020 10:14:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
Using decoders or other digital amenities costs money compared to these cute little boxes.
Yes, but opens new options for automation (setting routes from a sophisticated controller or maybe even PC control).

Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
Plus every decoder drains a bit of power from the control unit.
Every decoder draws a tiny bit of power from the booster - not necessarily the booster built into the controller. Separate busses can be a good idea even if you do not use a separate booster right from the start.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline David Dewar  
#8 Posted : 07 August 2020 10:31:54(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,340
Location: Scotland
I use decoders and motors for C track turnouts. Expensive but good for routes etc with my CS3. For lights I just use a control box. Try a decoder in a turnout and I am sure you will like it.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline ocram63_uk  
#9 Posted : 07 August 2020 10:47:14(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: England, Suffolk
Tom, I agree with you as much as I agree with myself :-)
At the end of the day it all comes down to what Ranjit wants to achieve with his layout, i.e. setting the foundations of an all digital layout now or following his immediate needs, IMO

But do not buy the old blue boxes, they tend to warp and I had to throw a few away and replace them with the white ones
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Offline Ranjit  
#10 Posted : 07 August 2020 15:41:26(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
You have said it, David... All this Analogue to Digital conversions of locomotives, solenoids, signals, etc. is going to cost me a bomb !! But, once it is done, I am sure I am going to like it. Thank you for saying so.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline Ranjit  
#11 Posted : 07 August 2020 15:45:08(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Marco... I am slowly getting rid of most of my analogue stuff, and I am setting a foundation for a digital layout.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 08 August 2020 12:57:34(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
You need always electronic control to switch signals and motor.
Hear, hear!
I can do it with my finger without electronic control... Wink


Still you don’t! You even use trafo or and power feeder.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#13 Posted : 08 August 2020 12:59:50(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
Originally Posted by: Ranjit Go to Quoted Post
Hey Tom and Anders... Great to hear from both of you !! The quick stupid question was actually stupid. I did not frame it properly. The quick stupid question again is: Do you need control boxes (7072, 7210, 7211, etc.) to control solenoids, signals, lighting, etc. or can you do without them in a digital layout? All this while, I have been controlling these devices manually in an analogue layout. As I am embarking on building a brand new digital layout, hence my stupid question. It seems that I don't need to have these control boxes provided I install decoders as Tom has explained. One more new thing I have learned about Marklin digital layouts.

Cheers,
Ranjit


Märklins control boxes are electronic function to control devices.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Ranjit  
#14 Posted : 08 August 2020 13:46:23(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
ThumpUp
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 08 August 2020 16:20:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,265
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
You need always electronic control to switch signals and motor.
Hear, hear!
I can do it with my finger without electronic control... Wink


Still you don’t! You even use trafo or and power feeder.
Still you don't get the point. I can do it with my finger without electricity and without transformer.

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Märklins control boxes are electronic function to control devices.
Most control boxes are simple electric switches without any electronics included.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline Ranjit  
#16 Posted : 08 August 2020 17:59:24(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Now, I am completely at a loss !! Do I use control boxes in a digital layout or don't I ? The answers to this very "stupid question" have become very large indeed.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#17 Posted : 08 August 2020 18:37:06(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 398
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
If you use decoders to control the switches and signals, you don't need the control boxes in a digital layout. I mainly use old K83 decoders for there job. I use them even in an analog setup for convenience and automation.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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Offline David Dewar  
#18 Posted : 08 August 2020 18:37:07(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,340
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: Ranjit Go to Quoted Post
Now, I am completely at a loss !! Do I use control boxes in a digital layout or don't I ? The answers to this very "stupid question" have become very large indeed.

Cheers,
Ranjit


Ranjit. Buy a turnout decoder and motor and fit it to a C track turnout. When you see what it does you will not want control boxes. Digital is expensive but it is worth going slowly and build up over time and buy the correct stuff. CS controllers work well with decoders and give you routes etc. Why buy manual switches in the digital age. Sometimes on here threads get out of control and do not give you what you want. My view is easy ... do not use control boxes and spend some extra cash to get the better option.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Ranjit  
#19 Posted : 09 August 2020 07:56:49(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Thank you for your suggestions, Martti and David !!

By the way, I will be using the K-track system for the entire digital layout, and I was wondering if it is possible to motorize and digitalize the turnouts under the baseboard to make it look more prototypical. What are the specific item numbers for the decoder and for the motor? Also, can the Maerklin Item # 7549 actuators be used?

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline cookee_nz  
#20 Posted : 09 August 2020 11:49:14(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,953
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Ranjit, a lot depends on how you want to run your layout. If you are going to rely totally on automated route-control, or run from something like a CS2/CS3 then you may never need any control boxes.

But what about when you might want to run your layout on manual control?, ie actually just "play trains" ? Then, if you want to change turnouts (and signals) you either need to bring up the track diagram and use the stylus to change settings, (which personally I find too fiddly), or you have to be "hand of God" and reach over to switch the accessory manual - not really ideal unless the turnouts are right in front and in easy reach (but I still don't like to do that).

Personally, I prefer to wire in control-boxes so that I have the added flexibility. And I like the newer ones with the LED that show the status of the device. It's still being driven via Digital, but operated by hand (if that makes sense).

However, for me, I like it even a step further. I prefer a track diagram schematic control, using either the older 6041 Switchboard, or an equivalent. Then you can still choose whether you use push-buttons, or a wired-probe to 'touch' the setting as some people also like.

What I definitely would suggest is that even if you decide not to use control boxes, do keep open the option that you may change your mind in future, and make allowances for adding control boxes if you like. It's a minimal extra cost to install the wiring and leave it unconnected when you are actually doing the construction, than to try to add it later on.
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Goofy  
#21 Posted : 09 August 2020 16:38:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,012
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

I can do it with my finger without electronic control... Wink

Still you don't get the point. I can do it with my finger without electricity and without transformer.

Most control boxes are simple electric switches without any electronics included.


I don´t understand why you even write about to switch turnouts/signals with the fingers since TS did asked about control boxes to control switch turnouts and signals support by of the electric/electronic power feeder?
No you don´t get the point about the topic.

Ranjit...yes you can use analog power feeder to control your switches/signals via Märklin boxes and drive trains digital if you like.


H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline river6109  
#22 Posted : 11 August 2020 04:25:15(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,715
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Ranjit Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for your suggestions, Martti and David !!

By the way, I will be using the K-track system for the entire digital layout, and I was wondering if it is possible to motorize and digitalize the turnouts under the baseboard to make it look more prototypical. What are the specific item numbers for the decoder and for the motor? Also, can the Maerklin Item # 7549 actuators be used?

Cheers,
Ranjit


Ranjit, unless Märklin has changed the underfloor mechanism and incorporating the thickness of your board they are not very reliable., there is so much play in them and with the K-track turnout mechanism it doesn't make it a secure operation., I got rid of all my underfloor motorized solenoids and exchanged it with proper servo motors, the benefit is, they are locked into a position and the linkage can't move hence the turnout mechanism can't move either but this again needs money and you have to have control boxes to operate the servo motors.
It is never a stupid question when it comes to outlaying a lot of money eventually and you could save a lot of money when asking questions before hand, it literally could save you thousands of dollars.

depending on the size of your layout, the amount of locos you're running at the same time, all of this has to be taken into consideration, whether or not you're able to run the locos single handed or you need an automated system., whether you can switch the turnouts and signals manually as Tom suggested., if not it will cost you money.
My main concern is is with Märklin signal or turnout products they are very expensive and there are alternatives at a much cheaper price and do the same job., whether you're talking about K 83's K 84's, signals, I've been in the fortunate position and made them myself with substantial savings.
It needs a lot of homework to establish what you need and at a later stage when you've got it all together (before purchasing anything) to share your plan with us and I would suggest not in bits and pieces but as a whole., one thing you also have to have in mind are you a handy person or would you rather put everything together products from a catalogue.
Being a Librarian you have to get into the habit of reading a lot about digital components and their use, asking questions about specific items can or could confuse you more than help you because each digital component has a link to another digital component and unless you know what you want and need the confusion can increase and for us to give you the right advice could be hampering your success.
You could finish up running around like a mouse on its wheel, getting enough exercise for your brain with ideas running wild but not much of getting a foothold to proceed with facts and figures, it took me 3 years to decide which command station to buy switching over from the Motorola system and it depends you may not need an expensive Märklin or ESU central station/command station and it may be enough to buy a second hand Motorala system, combine this with ESU decoders, you can expand it to 255 addresses and 12 Aux functions.
There are so many different options you can choose from, therefore read a lot beforehand and than put it all together.
It is already apparent with forum members giving you advice with different options and it seems you find it hard to analyze whats right for you therefore go back and read and read, some things you most probably will not find anywhere is the practical application of digital components as they can change options you have available to you as this topic has already shown
John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Jay
Offline Ranjit  
#23 Posted : 11 August 2020 05:41:06(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
I totally agree with everything that you have said, John. Reading about digital components is no doubt an important aspect of understanding how they all fit together as a system. I also feel that seeing is believing. Unfortunately, there is nowhere I can go to see such components in operation, and I miss this terribly here in Chennai. The only top-notch resource that I have is 'marklin-users.net', and tank God for that !!

Now, what are these 'servo motors' and how are they used to control devices on the layout?

My new 12 feet (3.7 m) x 10 feet (3.0 m) digital layout planning is underway. As soon as it is finished, I will be sharing it here to get all your inputs. The room for this layout is currently being cleared and cleaned. Once this is completed, I wish to renovate the room to accommodate this layout. I would also be rewiring and installing an UPS, fitting spot lights, etc.

You see, the one good thing about using Märklin components is that they all fit together nicely, and it is usually 'plug and play'. Using components from other manufacturers is a bit fiddly.

Let me get back to the books and let me get engrossed. There is lots that I need to learn.

Take care, stay safe and stay healthy.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline hxmiesa  
#24 Posted : 11 August 2020 08:59:24(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,520
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Ranjit Go to Quoted Post
I also feel that seeing is believing. Unfortunately, there is nowhere I can go to see such components in operation, and I miss this terribly here in Chennai. The only top-notch resource that I have is 'marklin-users.net',

YouTube is a great source of information. Lots of how-to videos for beginners.
-And maybe you should read about DCC, and then YouTubers from UK and US really kicks in, and there´s a LOT of information available on the net!

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline river6109  
#25 Posted : 11 August 2020 09:40:48(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,715
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Ranjit, I agree with Märklin is plug and play but there others which do the same at a fraction of the cost and this is where it becomes a never ending topic with so many options.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by river6109
Offline Ranjit  
#26 Posted : 11 August 2020 10:00:24(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 3,009
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Hi John... I will definitely look at the cost of Märklin digital components vs. other manufacturers and explore the "other options" when the time comes.

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
Offline river6109  
#27 Posted : 11 August 2020 11:19:47(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,715
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Ranjit, you will be amazed the money you can save
John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kiwiAlan  
#28 Posted : 11 August 2020 18:20:47(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,103
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Ranjit Go to Quoted Post

Now, what are these 'servo motors' and how are they used to control devices on the layout?
...
You see, the one good thing about using Märklin components is that they all fit together nicely, and it is usually 'plug and play'. Using components from other manufacturers is a bit fiddly.


As pointed out, there is lots of information on using Radio Control servos as point motors. I believe the recent Marklin 60881 can control them, but I have not investigated this, so have no experience with setting them up.

The servos are available for good prices on eBay, so the cost of the Marklin point controller becomes the major cost.
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