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Offline daafies  
#1 Posted : 22 March 2020 08:26:12(UTC)
daafies

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2017(UTC)
Posts: 19
Location: California, Hayward
Hi forum members,

Is marklin moving away from the dcm motors and will start using more pure dc coreless motors? I find these much smoother and quieter, not to mention more reliable.

I ask cause im in the market for a br 143 and marklin only offers it in sfcm and dcm. Brands like piko use core less. Am I needlessly worrying too much or is one better of with coreless motors?

Thanks in advance for you opinions
David
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 22 March 2020 09:02:10(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,084
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: daafies Go to Quoted Post
Hi forum members,

Is marklin moving away from the dcm motors and will start using more pure dc coreless motors? I find these much smoother and quieter, not to mention more reliable.

I ask cause im in the market for a br 143 and marklin only offers it in sfcm and dcm. Brands like piko use core less. Am I needlessly worrying too much or is one better of with coreless motors?

Thanks in advance for you opinions
David


Check out the locos in the 36xxx series. These are the entry level locos and have a conventional motor (not neccesarily a coreless one) with cardan shafts that drive all axles. They are reported to be very smooth operation for the price.

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Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 22 March 2020 12:38:24(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,691
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Quote:
Is marklin moving away from the dcm motors and will start using more pure dc coreless motors? I find these much smoother and quieter, not to mention more reliable.


It appears to be the case that Marklin are moving towards can motors, though not necessarily coreless motors in the cheaper models. The old fashioned flat motors (LFCM, SFCM and DCM) are indeed noisier and rougher in operation. Some have the skill to modify these with ball bearings, but a lot of the noise comes from the gear trains anyway.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 22 March 2020 16:11:34(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 893
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: daafies Go to Quoted Post
Is marklin moving away from the dcm motors and will start using more pure dc coreless motors? I find these much smoother and quieter, not to mention more reliable.

Hi David,

It seems to me that Märklin did that (toward coreless motor "bell-shaped inductor") move from 1995 until 2002 (approximate dates)
This first appeared with the beautiful Wurttemburgerin: bell-shaped rotor very compact motor with conic plastic gears reversible transmission. Totally noiseless, very powerful. It was also used on the 6 driver steam loco from Wurtemberg and also the BR45. The motor and gear assembly which were very compact were mounted directly on those locos.

The next step for Märklin was the use of Sinus motors. It started in 2002. I have one of these large Sinus motors on my 39223 (BR E94) alas with Altzheimer disease.

Then it was followed by the compact Sinus and ultimately with the SDS (soft drive sinus) like the compact Sinus but with Helicoidally magnetiezed rotor. My locos include: 26610 (Henschel Wegmann train with BR 61), 39010 (BR 01), 39970 (Turmtriebwagen), 26540 (Rheinpfeil and BR 221), 39404 (SNCF CC40100), 39420 (Re4/4), 39640 (BR 64), 39230 (BR23)
These motor were (IMO) the best, ultra silent w. ball bearings, ultra low speed capability, very low current. See video below


They suffered of high cost, alleged poor performance when used on AC (some say I don't know) and very very fragile electronics and non compatibility with upgrade kits (so when it is dead it is dead).

All my recent Märklin loco purchases are now can motors. This includes: 37170 (T16 KPEV), 39008 (BR 01 with coal level change), 39030 (BR18.5), 39095 (BR95), 39952 (VT95). All motors look the same with only the interface, worm gear and fly wheel size which change. They are very compact, very silent, probably cheaper and a little less reliable and reduced performance in slow speed operation.
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
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Offline daafies  
#5 Posted : 22 March 2020 20:32:07(UTC)
daafies

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2017(UTC)
Posts: 19
Location: California, Hayward
Thank you so much guys for the replies. I learned a lot .
Offline daafies  
#6 Posted : 22 March 2020 20:34:32(UTC)
daafies

United States   
Joined: 31/08/2017(UTC)
Posts: 19
Location: California, Hayward


Check out the locos in the 36xxx series. These are the entry level locos and have a conventional motor (not neccesarily a coreless one) with cardan shafts that drive all axles. They are reported to be very smooth operation for the price.



Thx! I saw a nice br 147 which should work with the dopple stocks. I found a photo online of a 147 pulling double deckers.
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 23 March 2020 10:09:07(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,709
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: daafies Go to Quoted Post
Is marklin moving away from the dcm motors and will start using more pure dc coreless motors?
Märklin are moving away from coreless motors, they are moving away from the c90 DCM. The new standard motors are can motors that usually are DCMs.

The Sinus motors are brushless motors. AFAIK the worst problems are with analogue DC operation.

The can DCMs of hobby models 36xxx are usually 3-pole motors. More expensive models sometimes have 5-pole DCMs that run smoother, some even have coreless motors.

Edited by user 23 March 2020 15:57:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline dickinsonj  
#8 Posted : 28 March 2020 15:49:37(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,318
Location: United States
For a long while I thought that the move to can motors was a good choice. They run smoothly and quietly and perform flawlessly at slow speeds. But the motor in my 37015 S 2/6 has just failed and unlike a DCM it can't be repaired but has to be thrown away and replaced. I have only had that loco for about three years and I had naively thought that surely Märklin would install adequate motors in their locos, especially ones as detailed and expensive as the S 2/6. But it uses a generic motor which costs 25€ in the Märklin shop and now I wonder how many of my other inexpensive can motor locos will suffer a similar fate.

The DCMs are noisier and primitive but can be kept running indefinitely. I don't know what the failure rate with these cheap can motors will turn out to be, but I am concerned because I have a good number of them and it is definitely something to be aware of when spending what a Märklin loco costs today.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 28 March 2020 15:54:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,691
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
For a long while I thought that the move to can motors was a good choice. They run smoothly and quietly and perform flawlessly at slow speeds. But the motor in my 37015 S 2/6 has just failed and unlike a DCM it can't be repaired but has to be thrown away and replaced. I have only had that loco for about three years and I had naively thought that surely Märklin would install adequate motors in their locos, especially ones as detailed and expensive as the S 2/6. But it uses a generic motor which costs 25€ in the Märklin shop and now I wonder how many of my other inexpensive can motor locos will suffer a similar fate.

The DCMs are noisier and primitive but can be kept running indefinitely. I don't know what the failure rate with these cheap can motors will turn out to be, but I am concerned because I have a good number of them and it is definitely something to be aware of when spending what a Märklin loco costs today.


Jim, I've had two failures of can motors in the last couple of years in different locos. While it's inconvenient to have to replace them it's not a difficult operation, and easier than, for example, upgrading a DCM motor. At 25 euro I can live with the cost for the benefit of the superior running qualities.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#10 Posted : 28 March 2020 16:20:24(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,318
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Jim, I've had two failures of can motors in the last couple of years in different locos. While it's inconvenient to have to replace them it's not a difficult operation, and easier than, for example, upgrading a DCM motor. At 25 euro I can live with the cost for the benefit of the superior running qualities.


Thanks for the input Ray.

I agree that these motors are easily replaced and they do run well. At this point all I need to do is solder on the motor leads and reassemble it all. I also agree that the price is reasonable but for me it is frustrating to have to install another motor of such low quality. I have tried to find a better motor as a replacement but so far I have not succeeded, although I intend to keep looking!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline mvd71  
#11 Posted : 28 March 2020 20:20:55(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,230
Location: Auckland,
If you want replacement motors of better quality, you can try https://www.sb-modellbau.com/

I have used their kits in three locos (always the premium kit) and the performance rivals the SDS, and allowed me to replace the noisy motor of a BR86 and make it almost silent running like the Lady C is renowned for.

The only downside to the kits is the cost is high, and on most locos it's a one way conversion I.e. No going back. But I have been so pleased with the result, that when this corona virus thing is resolved and job security exists again I intend to use the kits on at least all the locos I have with major noise issues, and if a SDS motor of mine fails it will be replaced with one of their units and a normal motor (I recently had the misfortune of repairing a SDS powered br141 that had a failed driver board, and the cost was such that I won't do it again).

Hope this helps provide some quality options Jim.

Cheers....

Mike
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Offline dickinsonj  
#12 Posted : 29 March 2020 15:01:16(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,318
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
If you want replacement motors of better quality, you can try https://www.sb-modellbau.com/

I have used their kits in three locos (always the premium kit) and the performance rivals the SDS, and allowed me to replace the noisy motor of a BR86 and make it almost silent running like the Lady C is renowned for.


Thanks for the tip Mike. I have looked at their website but I have not been able to find a motor or kit for the 37015. I would prefer to spend the extra money to buy a high quality motor that will last the lifetime of the model rather than install another inexpensive motor. I have the Märklin replacement motor on order but I would be interested in eventually moving on to a better quality motor for my pretty S 2/6.

I have a Württemburg C with a Faulhaber motor BTW and it runs beautifully, just as the name suggests and I would certainly prefer that all of my locos ran that well. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline mvd71  
#13 Posted : 29 March 2020 20:18:49(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,230
Location: Auckland,
Hi Jim,

I fully understand what you are saying. For me Marklin has always been about quality and longevity, so I will also use the SB Modelbau option to get quality replacements if needed.

You could try emailing them and asking about the S2/6. It may be that as a newer model there has not been a requirement yet.

Cheers.....

Mike
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Offline dickinsonj  
#14 Posted : 29 March 2020 20:33:37(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,318
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post

You could try emailing them and asking about the S2/6. It may be that as a newer model there has not been a requirement yet.


Very true, and I do plan to email them and ask specifically about a motor for the S 2/6. Maybe they will have something available that I can use. ThumpUp

If I lived in Europe I would consider sending them several locos for motor upgrades which go beyond my metalworking skills, but postage from North American to Europe is crazy expensive anymore, and that is not a great option.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline mvd71  
#15 Posted : 30 March 2020 08:34:04(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,230
Location: Auckland,
I know it's expensive, and with the way our exchange rate dropped I won't be doing anything anytime soon, but my efforts installing a kit on my BR86 was well worth it. It's pretty much silent running now. Plans for my v36, v100, and e60 are in my mind.

Maybe in time to come when everything recovers we can both afford it

Cheers....

Mike
Offline dickinsonj  
#16 Posted : 30 March 2020 16:36:41(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,318
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
Maybe in time to come when everything recovers we can both afford it


That is my plan too - and that time will come. ThumpUp

I now have more budget for repairs and upgrades because I decided to not buy anything new until all of my best trains are working. When my VT 11.5 went down I cancelled my ICE4 order and made a firm vow to stop buying until all of my existing trains are once again fully operational.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline mvd71  
#17 Posted : 31 March 2020 02:48:58(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,230
Location: Auckland,
Good plan, I have a list of projects to work through too. Some are getting looked at now with our whole country being in isolation.

Cheers....

Mike
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 31 March 2020 08:49:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,709
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
I don't know what the failure rate with these cheap can motors will turn out to be, but I am concerned because I have a good number of them and it is definitely something to be aware of when spending what a Märklin loco costs today.
If I remember correctly there was an article in the Insider News about that topic. There they wrote that new loco models were taken through a 300 hour endurance test and that motors should last that long - at least normally.

Motors with production faults or if oil gets inside the motor will fail sooner than that.

Some folks have successfully opened those motors to replace the brushes - this requires filing brushes from a different motor to fit.

Brushes of Faulhaber motors usually last much longer than that.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#19 Posted : 31 March 2020 11:40:14(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,691
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Motors with production faults or if oil gets inside the motor will fail sooner than that.


On both motors I've had to replace the fault seemed to be caused by grease from the worm gear getting into the motor. On the replacement motors I applied the very minimum of grease to avoid this happening again.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline river6109  
#20 Posted : 31 March 2020 11:42:22(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,033
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Is marklin moving away from the dcm motors and will start using more pure dc coreless motors? I find these much smoother and quieter, not to mention more reliable.


It appears to be the case that Marklin are moving towards can motors, though not necessarily coreless motors in the cheaper models. The old fashioned flat motors (LFCM, SFCM and DCM) are indeed noisier and rougher in operation.


Some have the skill to modify these with ball bearings, but a lot of the noise comes from the gear trains anyway.


not entirely, my main aim was to stop oiling the motor, although it quietened the noise a bit but this was due to the brush plate holders being re-aligned., my current project with a conversion of the 3031 proves your point, its still noise as ever but it needs a closer inspection and see if I can reduce the noise considerable.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#21 Posted : 31 March 2020 11:50:24(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,033
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Motors with production faults or if oil gets inside the motor will fail sooner than that.


On both motors I've had to replace the fault seemed to be caused by grease from the worm gear getting into the motor. On the replacement motors I applied the very minimum of grease to avoid this happening again.


I've replaced 2 motors for a friend of mine (BR 94) and its exactly what you've described, I think Märklin placed a cap between the worm gear and the motor after many people had the same problem and it wasn't caused by customers who owned the loco but over greasing them in the factory.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline dickinsonj  
#22 Posted : 31 March 2020 18:00:16(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,318
Location: United States
After I replace the motor in my S 2/6 I will open it up and see if I can determine the cause of the failure. The gross signs of failure are a severe vibration from the motor, which I assume is caused by either defective bearings or brushes.

I have seen some of my can motor locos with a lot of grease on the worm gear from the factory so that could be a problem right from the start. Some come with grease on the cardan joints, while most do not, which seems odd to me.

I serviced one last week that had a lot of excess grease on one worm gear and none at all on the gear on the other bogie. I have maybe 40-50 hours of use on my S 2/6 tops and I have only greased it once. I have seen other locos where the worm gear has moved the grease out of the end of the gearbox, so maybe it can also move it into the motor and cause failures. The design of the worm gear causes it to pump grease longitudinally, like an auger, which seems like a poor design on Märklin's part.

I was surprised that the manual for my ESU V 200 said that it was made with high quality parts and did not ever need any lubrication, so this problem would probably not happen with their drivetrain design.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline mvd71  
#23 Posted : 31 March 2020 20:53:12(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,230
Location: Auckland,
My BR94 has had a motor replacement with the motor being supplied under warranty by Märklin. The fault was as described in this thread, grease getting into the motor.

With regards to the ESU locos, in theory some components can be made from high quality self lubricating materials, and as such not require lube. For an example (not necessarily a good one) Märklin use nylon bushes in the DCM motor, and the nylon is self lubricating. This means it is not designed for lube in this region, and the well documented effect of lube on brushes in a DCM shows what happens to these motors when we put oil in the wrong place. Using sealed ball bearings is an excellent way of getting around this problem, and is exactly what Hag did for years.

To sum up, it is important to lubricate our locos regularly per the manufacturers recommendations, but be wary of the urge to "just put a drop" somewhere the manufacturer has not recommended as the loco may be like ESU's newer offerings, with self lubricating components that will not benefit from our well intentioned efforts.

Gee.... This lockdown gives me lots of time to post on the users net!

Cheers...

Mike
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