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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 13 January 2020 13:07:18(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,124
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Hi, I wouldn't mind purchasing a new Märklin loco with sound and there are 2 examples come into my mind, SBB Ce 5/6 "Elephant", Ive got the Roco version but its pulling power as a freight loco up into the mountains is somewhat questionable, the other would be a SBB, the latest release from Märklin, (39520) Class Fc 2x3/4 "Köfferli". (Euro 435.00)
I don't think I ever bought a loco from Märklin with sound so it will be a challenge to part with a lot of money, if it ever will eventuate., mind you the sound decoders have dramatically improved over the years whereas the earlier ones just had a whistle and some sort of loco sound.

I don't think the price on these 2 models will come down in the foreseeable future but rather go up and I've noticed the SBB ICN 500 train set (5 parts) is advertised on ebay for around Euro 1100.00 and the supplementary set for around Euro 300.00, I bought mine (second hand but as new) for much less than half of this price.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
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5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline Copenhagen  
#2 Posted : 13 January 2020 14:26:29(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 56
There are lots of Märklin locomotives with sound that are far, far cheaper than the Köferli.
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 13 January 2020 15:09:42(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,792
Location: DE-NW
If Märklin offer models with and without sound, then the difference is about €60 RRP.
It seems models without sound do not sell well, so many variations are available with sound only.

The Köfferli is €580 RRP with sound. Without sound it would still be €520 RRP. Street prices will vary and people from outside the EU will save about 16% as the VAT is deducted.

Buy it if you think it is worth it.
It is not the sound that makes those models so expensive.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline David Dewar  
#4 Posted : 13 January 2020 16:49:13(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,952
Location: Scotland
Members who have bought the 39520 like it which is a good recommendation. Maybe somebody could confirm the pulling power for you. 435 euros looks not a bad price.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline hxmiesa  
#5 Posted : 13 January 2020 17:29:56(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,925
Location: Spain
It all depends... Are they made in China? ;-)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 13 January 2020 17:35:11(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,665
Location: Montreal, QC
With the rumours about a 2020 Be 4/6, perhaps you want to hold on your new purchase until you see exactly what they will be offering.
There is also the metal Insider RAm that might be worth considering.

The one that I am eagerly awaiting is the LSM RBe 540/RBe 4/4.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 13 January 2020 20:09:12(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,124
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
With the rumours about a 2020 Be 4/6, perhaps you want to hold on your new purchase until you see exactly what they will be offering.
There is also the metal Insider RAm that might be worth considering.

The one that I am eagerly awaiting is the LSM RBe 540/RBe 4/4.

Regards

Mike C


Mike, most of the Swiss and BLS locos are from Roco or HAG and I'm sure I've got a Be 4/6, I think I've got enough train sets like the ICE I, ICE 2, 2 sets of the ÖBB Trans Alpin, 1 SBB RABDe 500 (ICN), 1 Railjet.

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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 14 January 2020 08:49:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,792
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
It all depends... Are they made in China? ;-)
Does it depend?
We all know Märklin does not make anything in China. Wink

The question is "Do you get good value for your money?"

More than a dozen years ago I hesitated a long time before spending more than €200 for a single loco. Later on there were other thresholds: €300, €400, €500, €600, ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline HO Collector  
#9 Posted : 14 January 2020 21:04:08(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 142
Location: Just north of London
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I don't think the price on these 2 models will come down in the foreseeable future but rather go up and I've noticed the SBB ICN 500 train set (5 parts) is advertised on ebay for around Euro 1100.00 and the supplementary set for around Euro 300.00, I bought mine (second hand but as new) for much less than half of this price.

John


John
I bought some sets because I liked them and because I thought that they will not come down in the foreseeable future, guess what? They are now less than 50% of what I paid.
Trains as an investment or a financial anchor? Cursing Cursing Cursing
Offline river6109  
#10 Posted : 15 January 2020 02:46:15(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,124
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: HO Collector Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I don't think the price on these 2 models will come down in the foreseeable future but rather go up and I've noticed the SBB ICN 500 train set (5 parts) is advertised on ebay for around Euro 1100.00 and the supplementary set for around Euro 300.00, I bought mine (second hand but as new) for much less than half of this price.

John


John
I bought some sets because I liked them and because I thought that they will not come down in the foreseeable future, guess what? They are now less than 50% of what I paid.
Trains as an investment or a financial anchor? Cursing Cursing Cursing

investment: I've given up on that idea 20 years ago
it depends which items you thought after and suppose the numbers being produced.

John.

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Offline Marcus01  
#11 Posted : 15 January 2020 04:57:06(UTC)
Marcus01

Canada   
Joined: 10/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
It all depends... Are they made in China? ;-)
Does it depend?
We all know Märklin does not make anything in China. Wink

The question is "Do you get good value for your money?"

More than a dozen years ago I hesitated a long time before spending more than €200 for a single loco. Later on there were other thresholds: €300, €400, €500, €600, ...


2C27C733-08F8-49FC-83C2-750069844253.jpeg

Laugh “We know they don’t make in China” except when the brand new loco turns up with a Made in China Sticker attached. Mad Wasn’t impressed. The loco is a few years old (old new stock) so I hope Marklin have stopped this practice now...
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Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 15 January 2020 08:59:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,792
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Marcus01 Go to Quoted Post
Laugh “We know they don’t make in China” except when the brand new loco turns up with a Made in China Sticker attached. Mad Wasn’t impressed. The loco is a few years old (old new stock) so I hope Marklin have stopped this practice now...
This loco was not made by Märklin, they just bought it and resold it.
They still do not make items in China, but they still resell items made in the Far East.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Marcus01  
#13 Posted : 19 January 2020 06:46:21(UTC)
Marcus01

Canada   
Joined: 10/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Marcus01 Go to Quoted Post
Laugh “We know they don’t make in China” except when the brand new loco turns up with a Made in China Sticker attached. Mad Wasn’t impressed. The loco is a few years old (old new stock) so I hope Marklin have stopped this practice now...
This loco was not made by Märklin, they just bought it and resold it.
They still do not make items in China, but they still resell items made in the Far East.



That is the oddest comment. Since when can a manufacturer put something that is not their product in their branded box and sell it for a premium price? There are consumer laws that protect us from manufacturers passing off false products, I think what you may be referring to is that marklin pawned off and got a another toy factory to make this product on their behalf. But its still marklin despite where it was made.
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Offline jonas_sthlm  
#14 Posted : 19 January 2020 12:52:42(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
This loco was not made by Märklin, they just bought it and resold it.
They still do not make items in China, but they still resell items made in the Far East.


Do we know who made the G2000 for Märklin?

Maybe that was the reason why we first now get the Hectorrail version Huh
Large Swedish train collection / CS3+ / 2x 60175 Booster /TC9 Gold/RemoteCS2/ K, C-Tracks / Favorites Class littRa/ Scale from the 1980s / Homepagemodelltag.seandyoutube.com
Offline Mark_1602  
#15 Posted : 19 January 2020 22:03:40(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 698
Location: Luxembourg
Hi guys,

You might have seen it before, but have another look at Märklin TV Episode 75, released in December 2015. I could only find the German version, but about 5 minutes into the video, there's a scene filmed at Märklin's factory in Györ, which shows Hungarian workers from the handpainting department working on the SBB Cargo version of the G2000. It seems that not every version of this model was made in China ...

SBB G2000 production in Györ

Edited by user 23 February 2020 08:53:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin vintage models, but also digital locos & non-vintage rolling stock (focus on Denmark, era 5-6).
Offline jonas_sthlm  
#16 Posted : 19 January 2020 22:29:47(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
Ok, thx for the video link, my conclusion is that they use model from B-models

Can maybe be that they buy all parts and put them together in Hungarian...
Large Swedish train collection / CS3+ / 2x 60175 Booster /TC9 Gold/RemoteCS2/ K, C-Tracks / Favorites Class littRa/ Scale from the 1980s / Homepagemodelltag.seandyoutube.com
Offline David Dewar  
#17 Posted : 19 January 2020 23:24:41(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,952
Location: Scotland
I bought a radio recently which had a sitckers saying designed assembled in the UK from parts made in China. Most things I buy are not made in the UK or come from parts made in various countries. I have no problem where Marklin make or obtain parts as long as the product works and to date I have very few complaints.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 19 January 2020 23:52:44(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,232
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
Ok, thx for the video link, my conclusion is that they use model from B-models

Can maybe be that they buy all parts and put them together in Hungarian...


Why do you think they buy in parts from elsewhere? OK, we know that items like pantographs have been bought in from Sommerfeld and motors from Maxon and Faulhaber, but detail parts I would expect to be made by Marklin.

t doubt they buy any main body parts from other manufacturers as a kit set to assemble themselves.
Offline river6109  
#19 Posted : 20 January 2020 00:21:21(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,124
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
I bought a radio recently which had a sitckers saying designed assembled in the UK from parts made in China. Most things I buy are not made in the UK or come from parts made in various countries. I have no problem where Marklin make or obtain parts as long as the product works and to date I have very few complaints.


Were you able to listen to the radio and hear any foreigners explaining the instructions how to operate the radio ? LOL

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Offline river6109  
#20 Posted : 20 January 2020 00:27:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,124
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
Ok, thx for the video link, my conclusion is that they use model from B-models



doubt they buy any main body parts from other manufacturers as a kit set to assemble themselves.


sounds almost human, my wife is always looking for new body parts. LOL or are we talking about robots ?,

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5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline Mark_1602  
#21 Posted : 20 January 2020 07:09:28(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 698
Location: Luxembourg
After I posted that video link yesterday evening, I also wondered if the chassis and the die-cast metal parts had been made elsewhere and then assembled in Györ. That would explain the sticker on the box.

In my opinion, what matters more than the production site is the actual quality of MRR items. A lot of the warranty cases I've had were items produced and/or assembled in Hungary, some in China. I think Märklin's had a problem with quality control for a long time.

Another issue is new tooling. In the 1990s, Märklin focused on era I-II new tooling, in the early 2000s, era III took over. I personally don't mind if they make era I-III items, retro tin-plate editions or even fantasy locos as long as they can sell that stuff, but ten years down the road from now, customers probably won't buy that anymore. Märklin hasn't done enough new tooling of modern locos in the last 20 or 30 years, and customers in some export countries were offered era IV-VI versions of old tooling locos for decades, such as the Swedish Rc. Now Märklin is trying to come up with more modern locos, but I wonder if all of them have been designed by Märklin engineers ...

Edited by user 23 February 2020 08:53:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin vintage models, but also digital locos & non-vintage rolling stock (focus on Denmark, era 5-6).
Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 20 January 2020 09:14:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,792
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Marcus01 Go to Quoted Post
That is the oddest comment. Since when can a manufacturer put something that is not their product in their branded box and sell it for a premium price?
It's just a matter of negotiations. There are many OEMs in the world.
How much Märklin engineering was in the "Märklin" soldering station?

I have "Märklin"tank cars that were made "by" Tillig and that came in the typical Tillig box but with a Märklin logo. There were other rebranded items from Fleischmann, Brawa, Bemo, and others.

Pictures of "Märklin"'s Bay S 2/6 appeared on the site of Korean Brass some time ago. We do not know what that means.
Who made the moulds? Who owns the moulds and the rights? Who made the parts? We can speculate only because I do not think that Märklin insiders will share their knowledge.

Originally Posted by: Marcus01 Go to Quoted Post
But its still marklin despite where it was made.

Some "Märklin" products do not have a grain of Märklin knowledge or Märklin philosophy inside. Some of them are really good products, but for me they are not Märklin.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline river6109  
#23 Posted : 20 January 2020 10:11:53(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,124
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I think the whole model train world will change in a few years, I'm going to be 76 this year and have reduced my purchases in the last 10 years, looking at train videos the age around 30 is minimal and the top viewers are between 50-60 years of age., getting to my age it isn't so exiting anymore to get hooked on trains regardless how great they look, so will it make any difference a few years down the track where the locos will be produced. one would ask also is the demand still there or are the higher prices compensating the short fall on sales.
It may look good, the sales have gone up but this is most times, associated with profits and not numbers of units sold.

I don't think the Märklin believers would be happy if anything was made in China or other countries than Germany.

John
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Offline Agneaux  
#24 Posted : 08 February 2020 22:10:44(UTC)
Agneaux

Australia   
Joined: 16/03/2018(UTC)
Posts: 41
The only Marklin loco that I have been tempted by recently is the SNCF 241. its nice but 635 euros is not nice for me.
That isn't a "made in china" price. Maybe it should be to bring the cost down?

Given my current finances, I'm more likely to end up with the Liliput Era 1 SBB loco.
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Offline thing fish  
#25 Posted : 08 February 2020 23:54:56(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 144
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
... one would ask also is the demand still there or are the higher prices compensating the short fall on sales ...


John,

I think higher prices are compensating only one thing: greed!

Think of it, Marklin was around at times when radio was extreme luxury. Now we have the internet and all ... they are selling more stuff than they ever did. So, where is the "economy of scales"? How many new items they are introducing per year, and how many of them are they producing? Just do the math. Any price over EUR 200.- for a loco (digital, sound, no sound, what have you) is overpriced in my opinion. How many hours must one work to buy a loco with a price tag over EUR 500? This is getting absurd ...

My two cents ...

C.

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Offline David Dewar  
#26 Posted : 09 February 2020 13:22:20(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,952
Location: Scotland
Interesting to see what the increase in the price of materials and wages have been over the past few years. Also the prices of Faller kits have also increased considerably so it is not just Marklin. Our hobby is now at the luxury end of the toy market. Just looking at the cost of a sound decoder gives an idea of where the cost is in some locos. However there is PIKO who can produce some items at a lower price and I did buy a loco which is quite good but to be fair does not quite match Marklin but represents good value and I would buy others.
Anybody coming into the hobby and wanting to take it further must expect to pay a considerable sum over a number years if building a layout of a reasonable size with digital control. I don't think manufacturers or most dealers are making large profits and in the future many will no longer be able to continue. Here in the UK HO is not well represented and like myself most of us buy from Germany.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline river6109  
#27 Posted : 09 February 2020 13:47:10(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,124
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
99 % of us will never see the background how a model is made and what it takes to design one., there must be enormous costs involved just for the mould and maybe prices are going up. one would think Märklin has 1 supplier who does the moulds and it could be made in China., another example is the Wunderland in Hamburg when they design a new scene they're spending millions of dollars.
Firms or companies from the past stayed in business for much longer, today it could be a company drives the sales to a maximum and than either dells it or is bought out by another company, I don't think Märklin is any different, may be the owners are contemplating selling Märklin in the near future and the only way you can sell a company if the profits are there and if they sell Märklin its bad news for us as prices will go higher again to recoup the initial outlay.

John
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Offline Michael4  
#28 Posted : 09 February 2020 18:04:26(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 413
Location: England, South Coast
Costs of of designing and making moulds are very high but as I understand it the moulds can last a very long time (and can be modified up to a point). Indeed the sets of moulds themselves become a significant part of the company's assets. The rights to the moulds are vested in the company itself.

A problem arises if the moulds are held by a third part responsible for manufacture and the company itself that owns the moulds goes into liquidation owing the third party manufacturer money. A new owner might find it very difficult to get them back.

Offline Mark_1602  
#29 Posted : 09 February 2020 21:28:30(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 698
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Interesting to see what the increase in the price of materials and wages have been over the past few years.


Hi David,

In an interview given to the German newspaper "Stuttgarter Zeitung" in January 2019, Mr Sieber and his father said that in Györ, Märklin has had to pay wage increases of up to 15 per cent p.a. over the last few years, so price increases are unavoidable.

Märklin has made a profit every year since the takeover, Piko is also doing well, but Roco is losing a lot of money. Some smaller manufacturers might not be able to compete in future, but MRR is not dying IMO. There are still some people who spend a lot of money on model trains. As you've said, it's become a luxury hobby ...

Edited by user 23 February 2020 08:52:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin vintage models, but also digital locos & non-vintage rolling stock (focus on Denmark, era 5-6).
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Offline Mark_1602  
#30 Posted : 10 February 2020 11:50:35(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 698
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
may be the owners are contemplating selling Märklin in the near future and the only way you can sell a company if the profits are there and if they sell Märklin its bad news for us as prices will go higher again to recoup the initial outlay.

John


Hi John,

I don't think the new owners want to sell Märklin, though it's certainly true that they have made Märklin models more expensive to recoup their investment. It's a business, not a charity. In the interview I mentioned above, the Siebers admitted that they weren't very happy about the situation in Hungary, and made it clear that they actually regretted having invested so much money into a town close to the Austrian border, where it is very hard to find and keep good workers. Another statement they made is that if they were to build or expand a factory, they would not do so in Germany because of high energy costs.

There are actually rumors saying that the Siebers intend to set up a factory in Vietnam where they will be co-owners. I don't know if that is true, but one thing I've noticed is that Märklin has hired Roco's ex-product manager, Mr Reindl. He must have a lot of useful know-how ... A factory in Vietnam would heally help Simba Dickie Toys because it could not only produce MRR items, but also plastic toys that are increasingly expensive to make in China. Suppliers from China are less reliable nowadays, so Vietnam might be the solution.

Edited by user 23 February 2020 08:52:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin vintage models, but also digital locos & non-vintage rolling stock (focus on Denmark, era 5-6).
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Offline Copenhagen  
#31 Posted : 10 February 2020 20:02:56(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 56
I don't think it's fair to call the Märklin company greedy. Such a term could be more appropriate for multi-billion companies like facebook, google, apple etc.
It may be an expensive hobby, even more so in some countries around the world, but it is possible to have fun even with modest investments.
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Offline thing fish  
#32 Posted : 10 February 2020 20:26:08(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 144
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
I don't think it's fair to call the Märklin company greedy. Such a term could be more appropriate for multi-billion companies like facebook, google, apple etc.
It may be an expensive hobby, even more so in some countries around the world, but it is possible to have fun even with modest investments.


Any financial investor today is greedy by definition. They just care for making money with money, otherwise why should they care moving manufacturing to low income countries like Vietnam?

Anyway, no politics BigGrin

C.
User is suspended until 21/08/2020 21:50:24(UTC) TEEWolf  
#33 Posted : 10 February 2020 20:54:03(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,441
Originally Posted by: thing fish Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
I don't think it's fair to call the Märklin company greedy. Such a term could be more appropriate for multi-billion companies like facebook, google, apple etc.
It may be an expensive hobby, even more so in some countries around the world, but it is possible to have fun even with modest investments.


Any financial investor today is greedy by definition. They just care for making money with money, otherwise why should they care moving manufacturing to low income countries like Vietnam?

Anyway, no politics BigGrin

C.


Oh no - this definition is totally wrong. Otherwise you can say, everybody who wants to get paid for work is greedy by definition.

The Sieber family are not financial investors. They do not make money with money. They make money with building electrical toys like locomotives, wagons, controllers, tracks, etc., etc..

They bought Maerklin with their own money (the Simba-Dickie Group is not the owner) for themselves as an investment with a high financial risk, because they were obligated by the liquidator to guarantee all jobs for 5 years. Can you imagine as expensive it is to guarantee jobs for about 1.600 people? All right these 5 years are over now, but meanwhile Maerklin looks a like to be financially on the right path. Only by doing profit you will survive. All other cases are leading back into insolvency.

I have seen their production plant in Goeppingen personally. And yes, they urgently needed a new production plant manager. If you have seen this production you are wondering why Maerklin can offer its models so cheap.BigGrin
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Offline Copenhagen  
#34 Posted : 10 February 2020 21:26:01(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by: thing fish Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
I don't think it's fair to call the Märklin company greedy. Such a term could be more appropriate for multi-billion companies like facebook, google, apple etc.
It may be an expensive hobby, even more so in some countries around the world, but it is possible to have fun even with modest investments.


Any financial investor today is greedy by definition. They just care for making money with money, otherwise why should they care moving manufacturing to low income countries like Vietnam?

Anyway, no politics BigGrin

C.


You should get your definitions right. Märklin is not a financial investor. Märklin is a company that employs thousands of people in Germany and abroad and Märklin is constantly developing, producing and creating products. If it wasn't taken over by an investment group in 2006 it might not have existed today. If some of the production wasn't done overseas or in countries with lower costs the products would be even more pricey than what you already think they are.

I can see that TEEWolf also have responded - and with more details than I have.
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Offline thing fish  
#35 Posted : 10 February 2020 22:38:53(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 144
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I have seen their production plant in Goeppingen personally ... If you have seen this production you are wondering why Maerklin can offer its models so cheap.BigGrin


Been there, done it ... and I'm still wondering why new models are so expensive, and later why they are so cheap. I'm just not willing to pay the premium when a model gets first introduced, I can always buy one later at a fair price.

Wow man ... we had only one Lutz back then Flapper

C.
Offline Copenhagen  
#36 Posted : 10 February 2020 23:24:26(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by: thing fish Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I have seen their production plant in Goeppingen personally ... If you have seen this production you are wondering why Maerklin can offer its models so cheap.BigGrin


Been there, done it ... and I'm still wondering why new models are so expensive, and later why they are so cheap. I'm just not willing to pay the premium when a model gets first introduced, I can always buy one later at a fair price...


If that is the case then everything is good for you and you have no reason to complain. I'm just not convinced that what you say is generally true. New models from Märklin are usually produced in a limited number and when they're sold out from the factory it's up to the local dealers if they want to sell at a discount or not. Having a small model railroad shop isn't a gold mine these days.
In my country I'm lucky to have a few shops that sell stuff at a bit lower rate than the officially listed prices for some items - but apart from that prices rarely go down.
Offline applor  
#37 Posted : 11 February 2020 03:05:01(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,511
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Yeah Marklin have re-used a nearly 50 year old mould for their new BR 92 (Prussian T13) and added a sound decoder and want 350 euro for it!

I am always on the hunt for era3a models but I just can't stomach that, especially with the silly front headlight 'pedestals'.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline river6109  
#38 Posted : 11 February 2020 03:43:38(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,124
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Well guys thanks for all the responds, I've come to the conclusion it is a matter of liking an item and paying the price and not the other way around, furthermore I think it is fair to say the owners of Märklin would like to see a higher return on their manufactured products but it is not totally clear whether they will make a move to Vietnam, so on one hand they're happy with the sales results and the profit they're making but on the other hand they would like to see more profits and maybe new tooling to be introduced., does this mean they are restricted going further ahead with their current production facility and wage structure. You don't mind me saying but there have been numerous occasions whereas the same model came out in different or fantasy items. (crocodile) but at the same time enthusiasts were eager to buy these items. it is also interesting to read: who owns the moulds as an example the saga with ESU back than.
Another oddity I've noticed was the DB BR 360, for some unknown reason everybody seem to produce this model along with BR 194, 193, E 93/94, another one I can think of is the DB BR 103., Märklin looks like was the only one who produced variant of the crocodile in vast numbers.
I was surprised to see Märklin producing the SBB Ce 5/6 "Elephant" and going for the newer model, the forerunner of the crocodile (Köferli = SBB Fc 2x3/4),
I've watched a Märklin video how to program 2 trains automatically, it was new to me this was possible without any other electronic gadgets. it started the loco in 1 track, turned the turnout and set the signal to green, increased the speed than approaching the siding of track 1 again decreasing the speed and returned into track 1 with another turnout switching automatically and stopping and than starting the loco on track 2 with the same procedure and programming, very impressive. it didn't show the technical side of it but apparently this option didn't leave the sound on in the siding.



John

Edited by user 11 February 2020 09:14:47(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline H0  
#39 Posted : 11 February 2020 08:48:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,792
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Märklin is a company that employs thousands of people in Germany and abroad [...]
Do you have current figures?
I found that Märklin employed 441 persons in Germany (2017/2018), but found no figures for Hungary or other countries.
There were times when they employed thousands of persons in Germany.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#40 Posted : 11 February 2020 09:14:27(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,124
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
for argument say if they move to Vietnam and are able to produce more moulds at a cheaper price, cheaper wages will this mean we have a choice of even more models to buy and put the long awaiting holiday again on hold and sell the current car to an imported Vietnamese model ? all you need than is a Vietnamese wife, Vietnamese food and you life has turned a full circle for the better and while you conquer all these new experiences you may can afford a holiday to Vietnam and for good measures learn a view Vietnamese words, like: mô hình xe lửa or Ở ĐÂU LÀ CỬA HÀNG ĐÀO TẠO MÔ HÌNH NHẤT.

tận hưởng thế giới mơ ước của bạn BigGrin

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Copenhagen  
#41 Posted : 11 February 2020 11:19:58(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Märklin is a company that employs thousands of people in Germany and abroad [...]
Do you have current figures?
I found that Märklin employed 441 persons in Germany (2017/2018), but found no figures for Hungary or other countries.
There were times when they employed thousands of persons in Germany.



Sadly I couldn't find any numbers so the figure could very well be closer to "thousand" than "thousands" when you add up the figures in Germany and other countries. The main point was to emphasize that Märklin isn't just an investment company.
User is suspended until 21/08/2020 21:50:24(UTC) TEEWolf  
#42 Posted : 11 February 2020 17:31:10(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,441
Laugh Laugh Laugh Why taking the long and winding road, when the direct lane is the easiest connection?

https://www.maerklin.de/...hmen/karriere/ueber-uns/

Maerklin writes as per 31.12.2019 (not so long ago) they had 1.130 employees and 2 production plants: Goeppingen and Gyoer (Hungary)

https://www.maerklin.de/de/unternehmen/standorte/

And almost everybody of us is speaking Hungarian (unfortunately I don't BigGrin )Flapper Love

https://www.maerklin.de/...any/maerklin-in-hungary/

https://www.maerklin.de/...nehmen/maerklin-im-bild/

the intersting part are these 2 videos

https://www.maerklin.de/...ia-unser-werk-in-ungarn/

https://www.maerklin.de/...-werk-in-ungarn-folge-2/

All right enough for today.Smile

P-S. of course, if you do not understand this schwäbischen (Swabian) slang of Mr. Gräßle, please feel free asking for support.Wink
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Offline Purellum  
#43 Posted : 11 February 2020 17:53:23(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,226
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: thing fish Go to Quoted Post
Wow man ... we had only one Lutz back then Flapper


LOL Laugh LOL Laugh LOL

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Mark_1602  
#44 Posted : 11 February 2020 18:44:26(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 698
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

I found that Märklin employed 441 persons in Germany (2017/2018), but found no figures for Hungary or other countries.


Hi Tom,

Does the job guarantee for Märklin workers only apply to Göppingen? If that's the case, Märklin might open a factory in Vietnam or some other country where they can find qualified workers more easily than in Hungary and eventually give up Györ if things work out better in Asia.

Do you know if Roco is happy with the results of its Vietnamese factory?

Edited by user 23 February 2020 08:52:07(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin vintage models, but also digital locos & non-vintage rolling stock (focus on Denmark, era 5-6).
Offline thing fish  
#45 Posted : 13 February 2020 13:01:14(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 144
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: thing fish Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I have seen their production plant in Goeppingen personally ... If you have seen this production you are wondering why Maerklin can offer its models so cheap.BigGrin


Been there, done it ... and I'm still wondering why new models are so expensive, and later why they are so cheap. I'm just not willing to pay the premium when a model gets first introduced, I can always buy one later at a fair price...


If that is the case then everything is good for you and you have no reason to complain. I'm just not convinced that what you say is generally true. New models from Märklin are usually produced in a limited number ...


I never complain; if the figure is high for me I just pass it. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just check eBay and see for yourself. New models old models, production numbers is always limited whether it is 500 or 10.000 doesn't matter, still limited. And this limited number still holds when they produce the same model from the same moulds the next year, and the year after, and the year after ... maybe, just maybe, in a different livery.

If you're happy with paying EUR500 for a 20cm. zamac and a 5 euro motor, I'm happy for you too. Don't sweat it.

C.

Offline David Dewar  
#46 Posted : 13 February 2020 17:26:56(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,952
Location: Scotland
Cem. We would all like to pay less for Marklin and I do not buy a lot of locos (maybe one and at times two per year) I do buy a lot of Faller kits and it can be a shock when you see what you get for your cash but it does take time to build some of these so there is value there. For value in Locos PIKO looks not bad and they are OK but not Marklin so it is a matter of choice.
Good to see you back posting.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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