CS2 60214 - what's that smell...

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cookee_nz		#1 Posted : 23 April 2019 11:33:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington		We probably should have a "gosh darn it" thread - I can cover it with three letters, two f's and an an s!! Not looking too healthy... Needless to say, it's completely non-compos-mentis
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Bigdaddynz		#2 Posted : 23 April 2019 12:50:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand		That's the main track output chip. How to remove and replace it and what chip it is was covered in a recent thread - Kiwialan has replaced one of these. Because there is a solder pad underneath the chip as well as all those pins you need specialist soldering gear to remove and replace it. Not sure if the guys at work have that sort of kit, but I can ask. Previous thread is here: https://www.marklin-user...m/posts/t41078-Blown-CS2
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Bigdaddynz		#3 Posted : 23 April 2019 12:58:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand		Must admit I hate that smell. I got a waft of it yesterday but couldn't see anything wrong, at least until I found one of my Viessmann 5211 K83's wasn't working. Opened it up and found an electrolytic capacitor had popped and what looks like a small surface mount resistor had cooked. No where bad as a CS2 though.
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cookee_nz		#4 Posted : 23 April 2019 13:36:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington		Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz That's the main track output chip. How to remove and replace it and what chip it is was covered in a recent thread - Kiwialan has replaced one of these. Because there is a solder pad underneath the chip as well as all those pins you need specialist soldering gear to remove and replace it. Not sure if the guys at work have that sort of kit, but I can ask. Previous thread is here: https://www.marklin-user...m/posts/t41078-Blown-CS2 Hi Dave, Thanks but it's packed and ready to be shipped down to Dion tomorrow. I'm glad I bought it from him, I'd feel guilty as if I'd got one somewhere else and then wanted his help The big fear is damage to the solder pads on the PCB - if they are fubar, then I suspect I'll be talking to my Insurance Co (accidental damage is covered under contents and there's no way you'd do this on purpose), but I have great faith in Dion, so let's wait and see. Power of positive thinking and all that I did remark to Dion wondering if I should be surprised that there is not better isolation protection in the circuitry for events like this? Having done a similar thing to my Intellibox almost 10 years ago I am WELL AWARE of the risk of stray wires - I just had a complete blond moment when I did what I did - although to be honest, probably more of a 'senior' moment than blond.
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kiwiAlan		#5 Posted : 23 April 2019 15:20:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,480 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Hi Dave, Thanks but it's packed and ready to be shipped down to Dion tomorrow. I'm glad I bought it from him, I'd feel guilty as if I'd got one somewhere else and then wanted his help The big fear is damage to the solder pads on the PCB - if they are fubar, then I suspect I'll be talking to my Insurance Co (accidental damage is covered under contents and there's no way you'd do this on purpose), but I have great faith in Dion, so let's wait and see. Knowing where Dion works for his day job (I assume he is still there) I beleive he will have access to suitable equipment like I have. In the absence of proper suitable equipment there is a Youtube video that originated somewhere in Asia of someone using a halogen car head lamp to heat a PCB to remove such chips. Putting a new one on is a little trickier as it really needs to be done to a proper soldering heat profile. The one I did had several burnt pads, but they were all unconnected, so I just cleaned the PCB with some isopropyl alcohol after removing the faulty chip. Then when putting the new chip on I didn't put any solder paste on those pads. Check with my pictures on the other thread and see if yours has 'erupted' in the same spot on the chip. If it has then you are most likely safe. Thanks BigDaddy for looking out the link to the previous page.

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TEEWolf		#6 Posted : 24 April 2019 18:23:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: cookee_nz We probably should have a "gosh darn it" thread - I can cover it with three letters, two f's and an an s!! Not looking too healthy... Needless to say, it's completely non-compos-mentis Thanks cookee_nz for the pictures. May you tell us (well, if possible in regular, non idiomatic words for non native English speakers, please) what had happened to achieve such a "desease" for your CS 2 1. version? What have you done that this short circuit (and for me it looks like a short circuit) could have happened? Do you think, it has something to do with its electronic design? https://www.electronicde...ior-isolation-protection Cheers TEEWolf
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Dave Banks		#7 Posted : 25 April 2019 00:09:33(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,042 Location: Gold Coast, Australia.		Well I can tell you mine blew when my BR52 condenser tender #37171 crossed my double slip & derailed causing a short circuit. The system should have handled that but did not so rendering my Central station useless with the most disgusting smell to signal its ending. AU$100.00 postage fees later I got a replacement from Marklin no doubt out of a starter set & I sold it promptly on Ebay & that is why I have an ESU Ecos #50200 & I have never looked back. My two cents worth.
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cookee_nz		#8 Posted : 25 April 2019 01:01:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington		Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Originally Posted by: cookee_nz We probably should have a "gosh darn it" thread - I can cover it with three letters, two f's and an an s!! Not looking too healthy... Needless to say, it's completely non-compos-mentis Thanks cookee_nz for the pictures. May you tell us (well, if possible in regular, non idiomatic words for non native English speakers, please) what had happened to achieve such a "desease" for your CS 2 1. version? What have you done that this short circuit (and for me it looks like a short circuit) could have happened? Do you think, it has something to do with its electronic design? https://www.electronicde...ior-isolation-protection Cheers TEEWolf Well, in short (pun intended) I accidentally allowed an exposed and powered Analogue wire to come in contact with the track on my CS2 powered layout resulting in 16vac being fed back into the output of the CS2. Under normal circumstances this would not happen, but it could certainly be a risk for anyone with a combined digital/analogue layout, or even when the layout is powered digitally, but accessories are still powered by analogue which we often see here being done or suggested to avoid drain on the digital circuit. In my case, I simply forgot to hit the big STOP button to shut off the layout whie I was doing my other task. About 7 years ago while in Melbourne a similar thing happened to my old Intellibox where a stray wire from the Trafo came in brief contact with the track output - fortunately that one I could repair myself. You just can't be too careful when these two electrically opposing systems are in proximity to each other.
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xxup		#9 Posted : 25 April 2019 01:34:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,594 Location: Australia		So the question on my mind is: Is the CS3/Plus susceptible to the same problem or has Marklin incorporated some addition protection?
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applor		#10 Posted : 25 April 2019 02:47:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,768 Location: Brisbane, Queensland		I think Dave was just very unlucky or something failed that prevented the short circuit protection from working. I have had a lot of short circuits on my layout before and after I fried my chip and never had problems with it activating (FYI I blew my chip by bridging 2 power supplies - different cause). Cookee certainly fried his good and proper, hopefully those tracks aren't damaged beyond repair.
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Rwill		#11 Posted : 25 April 2019 13:34:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC) Posts: 777 Location: England, London		I keep things in old coffee tins - M plugs and sockets, turnout motors that have failed and other bits and bobs. One tin has a couple of old K83's that have been abused and burnt out. I label the tins with self adhesive labels which fall off after a while. So looking for something involves opening tins and Murphy's law always wins in that it is the last one that contains what you are looking for. Now when I open the k83 tin nostalgic aromas fill my nostrils even though the incidents were four or five years ago.

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rbw993		#12 Posted : 25 April 2019 18:43:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,051		From the outset I knew my layout was going to require a number of boosters so I decided to isolate the track power by only using it to power about 6 m83's. All track is only connected to the boosters. So far, so good.
		Modeling Immensee, mile/km 0 on the Gottard. SBB Era V.


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TEEWolf		#13 Posted : 26 April 2019 02:14:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Well, in short (pun intended) I accidentally allowed an exposed and powered Analogue wire to come in contact with the track on my CS2 powered layout resulting in 16vac being fed back into the output of the CS2. Under normal circumstances this would not happen, but it could certainly be a risk for anyone with a combined digital/analogue layout, or even when the layout is powered digitally, but accessories are still powered by analogue which we often see here being done or suggested to avoid drain on the digital circuit. In my case, I simply forgot to hit the big STOP button to shut off the layout whie I was doing my other task. About 7 years ago while in Melbourne a similar thing happened to my old Intellibox where a stray wire from the Trafo came in brief contact with the track output - fortunately that one I could repair myself. You just can't be too careful when these two electrically opposing systems are in proximity to each other. Thanks for the information. I am lucky, because while I restarted with a MRR, I made the decision to use digital current at my layout only. Although at theses days I had no idea yet, what may happen and even about the differences of AC and digital current.
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Bigdaddynz		#14 Posted : 27 April 2019 12:18:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand		Not only have I had trouble with K83's cooking, I've had some other bits of 'cooking' fun. In my house I have lights in the hallway and up the stairs, with 4 light switches at various points, any one of which can switch the lights on and off. Several weeks ago the lights came on all by themselves about 2am in the morning. I was able to get a switch combination whereby the lights were off, so I went back to bed. The last few days things got to the point where I couldn't turn the lights off at all, the only way was to throw the circuit breaker. Today, one of our club members who is an electrician came up to have a look. He tested all the switches and they all seemed OK - he actually replaced a couple but there was no difference. At one point he got the switch combinations such that the lights started to flicker real bad and almost went out. That was accompanied with an electrical burning smell. Short story is that after whacking a few holes in the walls and ceiling we found what had happened. A mouse had got into the wall cavity through some vent holes drilled in the upstairs gas water heating cupboard floor and proceeded to munch on the wires. Looks like it had stripped one of them bare of insulation and the other was quite far gone, which accounts for the burning smell. Once we whacked the holes in the ceiling I could see an electrical flash when we put the power on. View from below. The mouse was hanging out of the hole on the right side. Cooked mouse! Wall upstairs above the hole where the mouse was. We are going to have to trace where the wires go and run new replacement ones. The badly burnt one is hanging on by one wire only.
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Dave Banks		#15 Posted : 27 April 2019 12:31:07(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,042 Location: Gold Coast, Australia.		[David the movie "Mouse Hunt" comes to mind instantly: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119715/?ref_=vi_close
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Bigdaddynz		#16 Posted : 27 April 2019 12:37:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand		Have caught 5 of the beggars in traps this year already, this one makes 6. Last year it was about 20 I caught - they come up when it's cold from the bush that's down below the houses across the road. There are cats around, but mine died about 3 years ago so maybe that's why there's so many.
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Purellum		#17 Posted : 27 April 2019 12:57:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz A mouse had got into the wall cavity through some vent holes drilled in the upstairs gas water heating cupboard floor and proceeded to munch on the wires. As electrician I've seen this quite often. The reason is that the mouse wants to go true the hole, probably due to a "nice smell" on the other side. Removing the plastic is easier than removing the material in which the hole was made, not that mice likes plastic. A very easy solution is to close the hole using expandable PU foam, it will block the hole well enough to prevent the mice from smelling what's on the other side, and even though the mice easily could chew through the foam, they never attempt to do so. I was quite surprised how well this works when I was living in the countryside and tried this myself, having mice in the house, every night trying to expand tiny screw-holes in the back of my kitchen cupboards to get to the food. Per.
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kiwiAlan		#18 Posted : 27 April 2019 13:56:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,480 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Not only have I had trouble with K83's cooking, I've had some other bits of 'cooking' fun. In my house I have lights in the hallway and up the stairs, with 4 light switches at various points, any one of which can switch the lights on and off. Several weeks ago the lights came on all by themselves about 2am in the morning. I was able to get a switch combination whereby the lights were off, so I went back to bed. The last few days things got to the point where I couldn't turn the lights off at all, the only way was to throw the circuit breaker. Today, one of our club members who is an electrician came up to have a look. He tested all the switches and they all seemed OK - he actually replaced a couple but there was no difference. At one point he got the switch combinations such that the lights started to flicker real bad and almost went out. That was accompanied with an electrical burning smell. Short story is that after whacking a few holes in the walls and ceiling we found what had happened. A mouse had got into the wall cavity through some vent holes drilled in the upstairs gas water heating cupboard floor and proceeded to munch on the wires. Looks like it had stripped one of them bare of insulation and the other was quite far gone, which accounts for the burning smell. Once we whacked the holes in the ceiling I could see an electrical flash when we put the power on. .... View from below. The mouse was hanging out of the hole on the right side. .... Cooked mouse! ..... Wall upstairs above the hole where the mouse was. We are going to have to trace where the wires go and run new replacement ones. The badly burnt one is hanging on by one wire only. Well, that sounds like you had a lucky escape from a full house fire

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dickinsonj		#19 Posted : 27 April 2019 14:45:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Crozet, Virginia		Originally Posted by: Purellum A very easy solution is to close the hole using expandable PU foam, it will block the hole well enough to prevent the mice from smelling what's on the other side, and even though the mice easily could chew through the foam, they never attempt to do so. Yep - I have been successful using that same approach. I had an area which mice were using as a freeway into the heated room in my barn and I sprayed that foam into the hole and wall cavity behind it and that was the end of my mouse problem. Too bad there is not an easy solution to the burnout in that CS2!
		Regards, Jim I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains! So many trains and so little time.

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Purellum		#20 Posted : 27 April 2019 15:56:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Too bad there is not an easy solution to the burnout in that CS2! Maybe it's time to try the old tricks ?? http://www3.telus.net/bc...iumph_registry/smoke.htm Per.
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kiwiAlan		#21 Posted : 27 April 2019 17:09:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,480 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: Purellum Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Too bad there is not an easy solution to the burnout in that CS2! Maybe it's time to try the old tricks ?? http://www3.telus.net/bc...iumph_registry/smoke.htm Per. haha, maybe I should get some of that to use at work when we blow up some ICs ...


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Bigdaddynz		#22 Posted : 27 April 2019 22:58:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand		Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Well, that sounds like you had a lucky escape from a full house fire Yep, somewhat rather thankfull at the moment!
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Bigdaddynz		#23 Posted : 27 April 2019 23:00:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand		Originally Posted by: Purellum As electrician I've seen this quite often. Yes, my electrician friend told me he'd also done a similar job at our club President's house - that was caused by a rat getting into the ceiling.
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PJMärklin		#24 Posted : 28 April 2019 06:51:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia		Hello David, An interesting and familiar story. I have an acquaintance who had a similar story with one alleviating exception. The mouse in the wall had caused the electrical problem but had been electrocuted in the process. In due course the malodour of the mort mouse lead to localisation and explanation of the problem (poor Mickey !) Regards, Philip

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Bigdaddynz		#25 Posted : 29 April 2019 02:45:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand		What happens when mice get into your wiring....
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dominator		#26 Posted : 04 May 2019 00:31:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,202 Location: Kerikeri		Same thing happened in my shop some years ago. Rats ate through the wires to some lights. Best outcome was those wires now are the main feed bus wires on my layout. Dereck
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Bigdaddynz		#27 Posted : 04 May 2019 10:23:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand		My electrician friend is a electrical engineering tutor at the local polytech. He took the burnt out wires to the polytech and put them on display on a display board, to show students what can happen. He said it was the worst rodent affected incident he'd ever seen.
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