Take care, but above all avoid this one :

http://newsfeed.time.com...g-on-subways-third-rail/

http://www.dailymail.co....ectric-railway-line.html

http://www.telegraph.co....g-on-Chicago-subway.html

Regards,

PJ

Lasse will be using a standard NZ 3 pin mains plug, but it wouldn't hurt to check the plug wiring on the transformer and the 60061 power supply, since NZ mains plugs would have had to be fitted at some stage to both devices.

I have a similar wiring setup to Lasse - common ground, with separate transformer feeding Viessmann decoders - and I've never had any shocks from the rails (unlike when using an analog transformer to power the rails....)

Nice to know, I stopped urinating on my Marklin tracks.

Gents,

Thanks for all the replies. I spend all evening investigating, which was rather interesting detective work, all though when I measured 170 volt between an outer rail and a copper pipe grounded in house I hurried to get my rubber sneakers on...

For sake of good order I dont have any boosters and only the CS is powering the layout. Majority of turnouts (and some signals) are powered from Viessmann decoders powered from a yellow bus from a Marklin transformer.

Anyway, below is the results which I would appreciate comments on, as I am not really sure what the norm is?

For those not interested in details. I had recently installed a new switch mode power pack 60061 which came from Germany with EU 2 pin plugs. As with the rest of my power supplies I install the NZ plugs my self and follow the NZ standard for wiring (live phase is brown and blue neutral). As recommended in this post I then swop the phases and my voltage potential from outer rails went from around 116V to 46V.

I am still not sure if this is normal, but as you can see from below test results I also did the testing when only wired to separate pieces of track on both my CS2 and CS3 and from a different house sockets. All gave results of some voltage potential. But the fact is that now I can’t feel any electricity when touching the rails and plugging in more users (including 2 Marklin transformers) did not increase the potential significantly.

Results:

A standard Multi meter used with black lead connected to our hot water copper pipe in garage from the water heater. Setting 0-200V AC. The red lead used to test outer rails on tracks.

1 test: CS3 connected to layout
CS3 on – 116V
CS3 off – (but house socket still on) 30V
CS3 off – 0V

2 test: CS3 wired to some test tracks only (no connection to layout)
CS3 on – 170V
CS3 off – (but house socket still on) 170V
CS3 off – 0V

3 test: CS3 wired to some test tracks only (no connection to layout) but powered from a different house socket
CS3 on – 170V
CS3 off – (but house socket still on) 170V
CS3 off – 0V

Above test was also done with my old CS2 and gave identical results.

I then swop the wiring in the plug for the switch mode power pack so blue was the active phase and brown neutral.

4 test: CS3 wired to some test tracks only (no connection to layout)
CS3 on – 60V
CS3 off – (but house socket still on) 60V
CS3 off – 0V

5 test: CS3 connected to layout
CS3 on – 46V
CS3 off – (but house socket still on) 46V
CS3 off – 0V

I then added the other consumers as follows and the voltage potential increased slightly:
2 x 12V DC supplies = 48V
Other DC supplies (for computer accessories etc) = 53V
Marklin transformers for yellow bus = 56V

I am no expert at all on electronics, but I do found it strange that I still measure a voltage potential when the central station has been powered off and it’s only when the house socket is switched off it disappears? Also interesting that a 2 meter longer test track you get significantly higher potential than when the CS is wired to my layout.

I did get a nasty shock when accidental touching the rails when I measured up to 170 volt. You could argue that it’s my own fault my installing the plugs my self, however the results would have been the same if I had just used an adaptor plug? So I am still worried that something is not quite right with my power supply to CS? Surely you can’t sell and market products like this if there is risk of getting electrical shocks? On the other hand I don't know if it's something with our house and were we are situated and having a high neutral ground as Dale mentioned?

Appreciate some feedback?

Thanks!

Bgds Lasse

According to what I understand, you have both a CS2 and CS3. I am not too familiar with them, but I know that the CS2 and CS3 are is designed to work with a DC input of 19V.
The 60061 power pack is designed to emit an output of 19V 60W DC.

If there is AC voltage in the rails, it should also be present in the output of the power pack. Have you tested the positive lead from the 60061 to see if it is emitting any AC voltage?
Did you have a different power supply for the CS2. What happens if you use that instead of the 60061? Did either CS come with the smaller wallmount plug in power pack?
I don't think that a CS3 would be generating AC voltage in any way, shape, means or form.

As somebody suggested, the problem may actually be that your ground is live and that when you touched the track, this is what created the spark.

I have heard stories of pets and people getting shocks when walking because sections of grass or pavement are "live" due to wiring issues of adjacent street lamps or electrical masts.
This can happen more frequently if copper ground wires have been purloined from the installations/equipment.

Never having been in NZ, I do not know what the plugs look like. Are the electrical outlets 3 prong (red/black and ground) or only two prong (red/black)?

Do you know if the main input to your building is two or three (or more wires)? Is it possible that there is some wiring issue with the mains?
Is your line in two or three phase AC and does it have a ground to the network?

The next suggestion that I would have is to run an extension cord from an outlet on a different circuit in your home to the layout and to run the test again and see whether you still get the same issue.
I would also wonder whether the power supply that you are using for accessories could be supplying live AC to the rails of the layout. Have you measured the voltage and watts (AC) of the brown and yellow outputs on that power supply/transformer? I would also test the layout (transformers unplugged) to detect any possible bleed from the yellow and brown to the rails. I do not think that any suitable AC transformer would be putting out more than 18V AC in any case.

Regards

Mike C

If you suspect a house grounding problem, then you really should your electricity retailer to check it out.. There was an article about this in Silicon Chip a couple of years ago (August 2014 edition) entitled, "Your Home Plumbing Could Electrocute You!".. It's not volts that kill you it is the current flow. In the article there is a clamp meter around the metal water meter inlet pipe showing 5.39A.

It also mentions AS/NZS3017 Test Sets(see www.emona.com.au).

This is not correct. The output of a transformer or a switch mode power supply should not have any potential related to the mains or ground.

This also means that the output of a CS should have no potential related to mains or ground.

But since the output of a CS is "floating" free, you sometimes can measure a voltage between the output and ground.

However, you shouldn't be able feel it, and you shouldn't be able to draw current.

It's like a static charge, annoying but harmless.

IF however, you can draw current, and as example make a small bulb light up, you have a problem, either in your house or your power supply.

Per.

Hi Lasse,

You mentioned in an earlier post that you were careful to wire the plug correctly according to the colours and this is definitely the correct thing to do.

This power pack reduces the voltage down to what the CS requires and the polarity is corrected within the Power Pack and CS combination.

So personally I think this unlikely to be the problem, but then I am at odds with Per on this and he may well be right. It would be weird for sure but there you have it.

BUT... you also mentioned a "Lighting Transformer" using a common ground.

1: Can you confirm that the ONLY two power sources for the entire layout are the 60061 and the Transformer? - what model is the Transformer? Blue or White plastic case (you should absolutely NOT be using any metal-case transformer in such a setup - some here argue not to use them at all, ever - but that's a different subject).

2: Assuming a plastic-case trafo, does it have an original molded plug on the cable or has it been replaced with one that can be unscrewed?

3: With nothing else changed, would you still get the shock (or measured high voltage) with the lighting trafo disconnected?

You should never be able to feel any electricity on a model railroad, and generally speaking, most people could not feel voltage below about 40v unless you had wet fingers or some other decreased resistance.

Having said that, I have had a zap a couple of times from a telephone wire but only when it's ringing - that is generally (and universally I think) around 48v and you can definitely feel that :-)

If you have a "phasing" issue, I would think it more likely to be that lighting circuit trafo, but don't take that as gospel because you have some other factors such as 3-phase wiring for example. Unlikely to be an issue, unless you have the 60061 and the lighting trafo connected to different wall outlets that 'happen' to be on separate phases but I'm going to assume you have both power units connect to the same outlet or a multi-strip.

The common-ground has its advantages, but I'm sure I've seen a previous posts over the years where the recommendation has been to eliminate any possibility of interference/crossover by not using a common ground and wire all lighting and accessories on a totally separate bus pair.

Of course with Turnouts if you have lighted lanterns and I think even some signals this can be a problem and leaves the only safe alternative to power everything from the single source which is ok if all lighting is LED and low power overhead but incandescent bulbs quickly add up. You might find a compromise by making all building & and street lighting separate and leave lanterns and signals powered off the CS?

Good luck with it and please do let us know the outcome. You may yet have to involve your sparky, you just want to make sure that he/(better say 'she' also) is able to think outside the square when taking the MR setup into account.

Steve

Hi Per,

Ok, I tested each pin on 60061 in relation to ground and it fluctuates up to around 0.5V.

Again when I test both pins I get 19.2V.

I also wired my multi meter i series with a wire connected from my iron bar in garden to cobber pipe in house. I get a potential difference of around 1.3 V.

Brgds Lasse

Did you remember to measure both DC and AC from the 60061 in relation to ground ??

If you did, everything looks OK.

Per.

They are not electrically connected, but they do have a potential. Free floating doesn't mean no potential. There is a charge on everything My finger is free floating to my cat's ear, but if I wear wool socks and scootch on the floor a bit, I'd bet the cat would disagree that there was no potential.

But yeah, the DC output side isn't conductivity connected to a reference on the AC side of the transformer coils. But it the voltages stay within a limit because air-gaps do allow electron travel, as does the transformer core, etc.

Gents,

Went to Dereck’s shop in town this afternoon (he is also on this forum and owns a very nice tile shop).

Bought along my CS3, power supply and crow bar and setup as I did at home.

Measuring in his place I got exact same reading as at home.

So I will send back the power supply to dealer and think it’s also worth while to drop Marklin an email about the issue.

Again - thanks for all the help. What a great forum being able to pull all this expertise from various trades etc.

Brgds Lasse

I don't understand how you don't get the same result when testing the power supply directly.
Have you tried either your CS2 or CS3 with another power supply?
If the power supply was generating such a voltage, it should be detectable when testing the output leads and the ground and not just through the CS.
Have you tried using a power bar with surge protection and voltage filter? That is also something that I would try.
I would also unpower the power supply and disconnect all other transformers and test the centre rail and rails with the prongs on the plugs to test for resistance (impedance) to see if somehow there is bleeding to one of the leads.
In any case, I would be concerned about the potential that in a derailment, or other accident, the rail and the centre studs could short, resulting in an AC surge into your decoders and CS that may be detrimental to prolonged operation.

Regards

Mike C

Hi Lasse,
I am not a sparky but it seems the switch mode power supply is faulty. They will often fail after a surge in the power line either following a blackout or with nearby lightning.I agree with Per .
This is a "double insulated" type without earth connection. It has a flyback high frequency transformer ( ferrite ring with primary and secondary windings) and these produce unwanted voltages that can " bleed" to the output.
Special capacitors are used to minimise this but if they break down some of the mains voltage can appear at the output. If the input plug is earthed this will usually throw the residual current interrupter on your main power board.
If the unit is not earthed, this voltage can appear superimposed on the outlet plug. I think this is the issue inside your unit or just perhaps a faulty board is allowing some bleed from the mains (about 50% often.)

Another power supply is the way to go.
Just my thoughts.
Regards,
Howard.

What safety checks. Look what the pricks puts into the baby food that the nz company Fontera ran in C...a.
Dereck

The German importer is responsible for making sure the power supply is compliant with EU regulations and directives. When Marklin incorporate it into their packaging they are then responsible for ongoing conformance.

This could be correct; but then what gave Lasse the electric shock ??

My point is basically that the CS doesn't and can't make 19 volts into 175 volts, so the fault must be somewhere else.

Per.

Some company imports these items into the EU with a EC sign - and that company is responsible for compliance with EU safety regulations.
Märklin buy them from a German company, so AIUI they (Märklin) are not responsible for EU compliance - except that they have to maintain their reputation.

Someone speculated that a short pulse of high voltage might have damaged the unit inside, leading to unexpected results.
OTOH this is not the first thread dealing with unexpected voltage on the outer rails.

If you suspect the Marklin PSU is faulty, why not borrow another Marklin PSU of the same type and use that, if you still get a shock or weird voltage results then its your house wiring or (non Marklin equipment) if not its your original PSU.

Seems you are spending hrs fault finding a number of possibilities when changing PSUs may be the quicker fault finding answer?

Thanks Mike,

On the new Marklin power supplies I did not fit any plugs myself.

One was bought locally and already came with fitted NZ plug and the other from Germany had the EU plug in which I use an adapter.

The interesting part is that if I rotate the EU plug the voltage potential drops 2/3 from around 170 to 60 V, which also lets me believe there is something going on with our 3 phase wiring.

Thanks for links.

Brgds Lasse

There seems to be many articles about this on the Internet (or at least by my reading).. Here is one example -> https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/281832/high-neutral-to-ground-voltage-of-switching-mode-power-supplies

This might also be a clue? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_ground

Perhaps this is a challenge for the Electronics Engineers on the forum?

We have rules out the plug adapter as a source of the issue right?