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Offline applor  
#1 Posted : 05 April 2017 04:43:56(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hi Gents,

I am trying to find out the manufacturer and part numbers for the cabling troughing that you see lineside, particularly around station areas as it is used for cabling to signals, points etc.

I see a lot of stummi layouts with those accessories but can't seem to find them, nor do I know the correct german word for it to do a search on stummis.

I thought someone here may know, though I know most marklin users don't go to that level of detail. Though it is possible everyone scratch builds them but I find that unlikely.

Thanks.

Edited by user 06 April 2017 23:56:05(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline applor  
#2 Posted : 05 April 2017 07:03:02(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
As is usual after posting here I have now found them on my own accord:

Weinert 7208

https://www.modellbahnsh...-gb-p-0/ein_produkt.html

These are the ones for point mechanical interlocking though, I wonder if there are alternatives.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline kimballthurlow  
#3 Posted : 06 April 2017 03:39:44(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Eric,
Given the limited length you are likely to require, it may be easier to score regularly across a 6-7mm wide styrene strip.
Even better, if you can get a U channel to place upside down, will give it depth. Plastruct does this.
Scratch building also gives flexibility in placement to make it more realistic.

Paint a dull concrete colour, and weather.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 06 April 2017 19:20:09(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Kabelkanal (cable canal) ala
http://www.auhagen-shop....aele--schaltkaesten.html
http://www.erbert-signal...cken_zub/db_dr/db_dr.htm

others just hand make them from balsa wood or as mentioned styrene and then paint it concrete grey
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Jabez  
#5 Posted : 06 April 2017 20:11:59(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 636
Location: Brussels
The Joswood laser-cut cable racks might be of interest.
http://lasercut-shop.de/...ops/22270/Products/40136
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline applor  
#6 Posted : 06 April 2017 23:17:56(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Thanks for the replies. Some of those appear to be more suitable for later eras though. The Balsa/Styrene is a good idea too and thanks for giving me the correct german Minok.

This topic however has lead me down a deeper path, something I have not previously understood and I am now trying to learn.

That is the topic of switching, namely the usage of weichenspannwerk and signalspannwerk - turnout and signal cable tensioning/force units.

I understand their usage is from the days of mechanical interlocking through the use of cable tensioners for mechanical force.
What I am not sure about is where they are placed, at what time were they phased out with electromechanical interlocking and whether they were still required for electromechanical interlocking
ie. is it electrical control to the tensioner or replaced with motors?
the Wikipedia article simply states:
'The name is due to the fact that these control elements are set electrically , but the dependencies of the control elements and driveways in the interlocking mechanism themselves are partially mechanically produced'

I found this PDF from Weinert late yesterday but it is in German of course and the translator loses the images and the text placement it corresponds to.
https://weinert-modellbau.de/wm_pdf/stellwerk.pdf

electromechanical interlocking was introduced at the start of the 20th century, so would be applicable for my main station and intend to represent that.
I do however have a smaller branch station which I had planned to be manual control only, however there is a small interchange with 3 signals.
This junction I would not think to use interlocking though but would still need to be set from a nearby signal structure - in this application I am not sure whether signalspannwerk units are a necessity of operation for this signals or not.
FYI this is Nochs item of what is referred to as signalspannwerk - https://www.modellbahnsh...-gb-p-0/ein_produkt.html
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 07 April 2017 08:24:07(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
I understand their usage is from the days of mechanical interlocking through the use of cable tensioners for mechanical force.
I think the mechanical cable force technology is still in use today.
Operating costs are higher with mechanical operation (more people needed). I have no idea how the interlocking is done.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline kimballthurlow  
#8 Posted : 08 April 2017 02:30:04(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mechanical remote control of turnouts was done with rodding (30mm diameter) carried intermittently on rollers (200mm diam), with angle cranks at changes of direction.
I would believe this worked for up to 200 metres, but required quite physical activity of levers by the signalman.

Signals were actuated mechanically by wire, where the weight of the mecahanism on the post always reset the signal to danger.
The wires were carried on small pulleys hung on posts about 500mm high.
Again it required some physical effort on the part of the signalman to set the signal to off, in other words GO.

As regards modelling, I would not even try to show these mechanism in HO scale - I would go mad doing so.
It has been done however, by a few.

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline applor  
#9 Posted : 11 April 2017 01:05:40(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I understand their usage is from the days of mechanical interlocking through the use of cable tensioners for mechanical force. I think the mechanical cable force technology is still in use today.


Yeah I understand that it is mechanical and I do know it is still used in some locations. I model 1954 Germany so still prevalent then and I wish to model this system for my branch line station.
My question is in the specifics of the setup and application in the real world so I can model it accurately.
The station area is covered for example in the Auhagen PDF that I linked but I am not sure as to when and where the line tensioners are used (signalspannwerk)

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Operating costs are higher with mechanical operation (more people needed). I have no idea how the interlocking is done.


The interlocking is done inside the signal tower, so is of no concern as far as modelling goes.


Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Mechanical remote control of turnouts was done with rodding (30mm diameter) carried intermittently on rollers (200mm diam), with angle cranks at changes of direction.
I would believe this worked for up to 200 metres, but required quite physical activity of levers by the signalman.

Signals were actuated mechanically by wire, where the weight of the mecahanism on the post always reset the signal to danger.
The wires were carried on small pulleys hung on posts about 500mm high.
Again it required some physical effort on the part of the signalman to set the signal to off, in other words GO.

As regards modelling, I would not even try to show these mechanism in HO scale - I would go mad doing so.
It has been done however, by a few.

regards
Kimball



Thanks for the information Kimball. These cables/rollers etc. are available from manufacturers and as above, I do want to use them for my branch station under mechanical control.
Are you able to tell me the application of the signalspannwerk and weichenspannwerk?

For example, you mention a distance limit of 200m, I am guessing that means without using the spannwerk? What is the distance limit when spannwerk is used?
Where are the spannwerk installed in relation to the turnout or signal?
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline kimballthurlow  
#10 Posted : 11 April 2017 03:34:41(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
.....

Thanks for the information Kimball. These cables/rollers etc. are available from manufacturers and as above, I do want to use them for my branch station under mechanical control.
Are you able to tell me the application of the signalspannwerk and weichenspannwerk?

For example, you mention a distance limit of 200m, I am guessing that means without using the spannwerk? What is the distance limit when spannwerk is used?
Where are the spannwerk installed in relation to the turnout or signal?


Hi Eric,
My explanation is based purely on my observations in railway yards in Australia.

The signal box levers were placed at a high level, to enable the lower lever length to be such that distance to the turnout or signal was mechanically operable.
As you say, line tensioners (called nodding donkeys) would be required in some installations in order to prioritize (make default) the signal position.
I can only surmise that these nodding donkeys were used only on wire operated mechanisms.
I would believe (without definite knowledge) that some of these parts available from Weinert and others come under the general term spannstellwerk.
I also believe that the head of the nodding donkey always faced the direction of the mechanical origin, so that when the signal was operated, the head moved towards the signal.

I may be wrong, but I am unable to see how turnout control could be successfully operated by wire. In my limited experience, that was always done by rodding.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline DB Fan  
#11 Posted : 11 April 2017 04:46:39(UTC)
DB Fan

United States   
Joined: 01/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 265
Location: Colorado
Here is a link to the MIBA website what explains some of the functions and maybe can answer some of your question. It is in German so maybe you can have it translated through google. The link is http://www.stellwerke.de/. Maybe this will help.

Robert
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Offline Robert Davies  
#12 Posted : 11 April 2017 23:01:20(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the replies. Some of those appear to be more suitable for later eras though. The Balsa/Styrene is a good idea too and thanks for giving me the correct german Minok.

That is the topic of switching, namely the usage of weichenspannwerk and signalspannwerk - turnout and signal cable tensioning/force units.

I understand their usage is from the days of mechanical interlocking through the use of cable tensioners for mechanical force.
What I am not sure about is where they are placed, at what time were they phased out with electromechanical interlocking and whether they were still required for electromechanical interlocking
ie. is it electrical control to the tensioner or replaced with motors?
the Wikipedia article simply states:
'The name is due to the fact that these control elements are set electrically , but the dependencies of the control elements and driveways in the interlocking mechanism themselves are partially mechanically produced'

I found this PDF from Weinert late yesterday but it is in German of course and the translator loses the images and the text placement it corresponds to.
https://weinert-modellbau.de/wm_pdf/stellwerk.pdf

electromechanical interlocking was introduced at the start of the 20th century, so would be applicable for my main station and intend to represent that.
I do however have a smaller branch station which I had planned to be manual control only, however there is a small interchange with 3 signals.
This junction I would not think to use interlocking though but would still need to be set from a nearby signal structure - in this application I am not sure whether signalspannwerk units are a necessity of operation for this signals or not.
FYI this is Nochs item of what is referred to as signalspannwerk - https://www.modellbahnsh...-gb-p-0/ein_produkt.html

The system that kimballthurlow describes is the 'British' way of doing things in which points are pulled or pushed by a rod and signals are set to clear by pulling a wire. Signals return to danger when the wire is released because they have a heavy counterbalance weight at the far end of the wire which pulls the wire back.

However this was not generally the 'German' way. In Germany (and in those other countries that used signalling based on the same general principles), signals and points were worked on the "double wire" system, in which one continuous wire ran from the lever in the signal cabin to the signal or point and back to the signal cabin. In simple terms, pulling the lever pulled on one end of the wire and caused the points to move in one direction (or the signal to move to the clear position), pushing the lever back to its starting position pulled on the other end of the wire causing the points to move in the other direction (or the signal to return to danger). Double wire systems are dead easy to recognise because the levers in the signal box 'turn over' by about 180 degrees whereas with rod-driven systems the angle of movement of the levers is much less and is rarely more than 45 degrees.

The problem with both systems is the effect of heat which causes wires to go slack and rods to expand. On the rod-driven system, things called 'compensators' are used to take up the expansion and contraction of rods and wire adjusters are provided in signal boxes which the signalman turns to take up slack in signal wires. However this approach does not work well with double wire signalling, hence the wires are run via spannwerk which keep the wires in tension when they expand and contract simply by using the weight in one end of the balance arm to pull up on the wires running over pulleys at the other end. There are lots of different-looking versions of spannwerk but I believe they all work as I have just described as they all have to do the same job.

Interlocking is a completely different thing. Signals and points are interlocked with each other in two basic ways - mechanically and electrically - although mechanical interlockings are very often complemented by electrical equipment. Also, it is not necessary to have a mechanical interlocking to still have mechanical signals. There was a whole generation of German signalling which kept mechanical signals but which were controlled by electrically interlocked switch panels. Much of this is still in service and in these cases the signals and points are operated by electric motors and all the lineside wires and the spannwerk are unnecessary. Bf Hanau is a lovely example of this (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=...D7MfqjyAKv1&index=97) and I intend to use this approach for my layout as I can have mechanical signals (Formsignale) but without having any lineside clutter which I think is impossibly hard to model, quite apart from being very easy to damage.

So, to summarise, if you have colour-light signals, you don't need any lineside wires or spannwerk. If you have mechanical signals, you can choose whether you want to go to the trouble of having lineside wires and spannwerk or not. However, if your branch station is old-fashioned then it probably would still have wires and spannwerk.

This is a very simplified explanation of how things work but I hope that it is helpful.

Edited by user 12 April 2017 15:33:26(UTC)  | Reason: Remove incorrect content

Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline applor  
#13 Posted : 12 April 2017 01:49:29(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hi Robert and thanks for your contribution.

I have been doing research and I am understanding things better. Details such as canals are used in station areas to protect people, otherwise open cabling is used where no danger is present.

So is it correct that electromechanical operation means replacing the dual cable pulley system with electric motors?
This is my intention to represent my main station.
I have been looking through all my German railway books that show my period and in stations there is no troughing/canals visible in the majority of photos despite the use of semaphore signals - which would indicate they are using electromechanical interlocking with motors to drive the semaphores?

One would therefore only see spannwerk and canals in use for purely mechanical operation?

I do still need further details on spannwerk however, to determine if/where they are required for my branch station area.

Final_plan_branch.jpg

Here you can see my layout plan of my branch line area (shown in orange). The blue is the main line and is at a lower height.

I am looking to have a signal tower probably to the south-east area of the branch station. I need to know if weichenspannwerk would be used for the far west turnout and if weichen and signal spannwerk would be required for the 2 turnouts/3 signals to the east.
I have also wondered whether a signal tower here could conceivably control the 2 sets of signal system on the main line below.
The set of signals to the east lead into the main station though so I would think the main station signal tower would be controlling those through interlocking.

If I am to model spannwerk in any of those situations, how far from the turnout/signal would the spannwerk be located?
Would they have dual cables feeding into one end and back out the other to the signal/turnout?
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline applor  
#14 Posted : 12 April 2017 02:39:49(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
draft plan with no spannwerk:

Stellwerk_branch.jpg
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Robert Davies  
#15 Posted : 12 April 2017 12:29:36(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
So is it correct that electromechanical operation means replacing the dual cable pulley system with electric motors?

Yes - exactly.

Quote:
This is my intention to represent my main station.
I have been looking through all my German railway books that show my period and in stations there is no troughing/canals visible in the majority of photos despite the use of semaphore signals - which would indicate they are using electromechanical interlocking with motors to drive the semaphores?

Probably, although signal wires are sometimes put in ducts particularly where there are lots of tracks to cross, so they may not always be visible.

Quote:
One would therefore only see spannwerk and canals in use for purely mechanical operation?

Yes

Quote:
I do still need further details on spannwerk however, to determine if/where they are required for my branch station area.

Final_plan_branch.jpg

Here you can see my layout plan of my branch line area (shown in orange). The blue is the main line and is at a lower height.

I am looking to have a signal tower probably to the south-east area of the branch station. I need to know if weichenspannwerk would be used for the far west turnout and if weichen and signal spannwerk would be required for the 2 turnouts/3 signals to the east.

You need a set of spannwerk for every wire-operated device i.e. every set of points and every signal.

Quote:
I have also wondered whether a signal tower here could conceivably control the 2 sets of signal system on the main line below.
The set of signals to the east lead into the main station though so I would think the main station signal tower would be controlling those through interlocking.

One of the good things about wire-worked points is that they can be operated at much greater distances from the signalbox than rod operation will allow. All the points on your layout would be within range of a single signal tower placed where you have in mind.

Quote:
If I am to model spannwerk in any of those situations, how far from the turnout/signal would the spannwerk be located?
Would they have dual cables feeding into one end and back out the other to the signal/turnout?

I don't know if there is a specific standard for this but unlike compensators in rod-driven systems which have to be placed in exactly the right position, spannwerk can be put anywhere to achieve the desired result. I have often seen them grouped together not far from the signalbox but I think you have free choice.

To go back on what I said in my original post, I have just come across this http://www.km-1.de/html/spannwerke.html . From this it is clear that there is a difference between signalspannwerke and weichenspannwerke - my apologies - although they both work on the same principle. (I have edited my original post accordingly.) Whether this is to do with needing higher tension in point wires or what to do if a signal wire breaks, I don't know. Basically, the two wires enter from the left, go round two of the bottom pulley wheels, then up and over the pulley wheels attached to the arm with the weight, then back down and round the other two wheels at the bottom and go off to the right.

Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline Robert Davies  
#16 Posted : 12 April 2017 12:37:53(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
draft plan with no spannwerk:

Stellwerk_branch.jpg


If I understand this correctly, this is the drawing showing the wire runs, so should be the draft plan with spannwerk

If I am right, then the layout of the wires looks fine, as does the positioning and type of signals. However, you need an Einfahrsignal (Hp0/Hp1/Hp2) to enter the station with an associated Vorsignal. If the station is a dead-end (i.e. none of the brown tracks continue to the left), then I am not sure if the Vorsignal would be worked or just fixed in the Vr0 position.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Robert Davies
Offline Robert Davies  
#17 Posted : 12 April 2017 15:41:43(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
I have just found this page which shows a nice set of wire runs, troughs, ducts, spannwerke etc
http://rgebhard.de/seite885.htm

and looking further at this, the whole website has lots of pictures which are excellent for modelling details
http://rgebhard.de/seite65.htm
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Robert Davies
Offline applor  
#18 Posted : 13 April 2017 01:28:35(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
[You need a set of spannwerk for every wire-operated device i.e. every set of points and every signal.


Interesting because I see many examples where no spannwerk is visible which is also shown in the Weinert guide - in these cases though I believe the spannwerk is contained in the lower floor of the stellwerk (signal tower), with the interlocks on the upper floor with the operators. Is that correct?
If so, then it must mean that single story signal towers would typically have external spannwerk for all lines and the larger two story signal towers would typically not have any external spannwerk - unless the signal tower was 'full' with no room for them internally and may then have lineside spannwerk?


Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post

I don't know if there is a specific standard for this but unlike compensators in rod-driven systems which have to be placed in exactly the right position, spannwerk can be put anywhere to achieve the desired result. I have often seen them grouped together not far from the signalbox but I think you have free choice.


I guess this question arises based on the product offering from Noch:
http://www.noch.com/en/p...y-bracket-set-13610.html

Here you can clearly see the cables connected from the weichenspannwerk to the turnout, however there is no visible connection on the other end of the spannwerk.
Is this a lack of detail from the Noch example, or would one assume the cables from the signal tower to the spannwerk would be run in underground troughing either straight under the platform or at a right angle perhaps to a signal tower off screen to the left?


Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post

To go back on what I said in my original post, I have just come across this http://www.km-1.de/html/spannwerke.html . From this it is clear that there is a difference between signalspannwerke and weichenspannwerke - my apologies - although they both work on the same principle. (I have edited my original post accordingly.) Whether this is to do with needing higher tension in point wires or what to do if a signal wire breaks, I don't know. Basically, the two wires enter from the left, go round two of the bottom pulley wheels, then up and over the pulley wheels attached to the arm with the weight, then back down and round the other two wheels at the bottom and go off to the right.


I find that website to be contradictory to the other models I have seen presented. I think they have labelled the signal and weichen spannwerk the wrong way
Ie. the spannwerk and weichenspannwerk are opposites to what is shown from Noch and Weinert:

Signalspannwerk:
https://www.modellbahnsh...-de-p-0/ein_produkt.html
https://www.modellbahnsh...-de-p-0/ein_produkt.html

weichenspannwerk:
https://www.modellbahnsh...-de-p-0/ein_produkt.html
https://www.modellbahnsh...-de-p-0/ein_produkt.html

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline applor  
#19 Posted : 13 April 2017 01:38:04(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
draft plan with no spannwerk:

Stellwerk_branch.jpg


If I understand this correctly, this is the drawing showing the wire runs, so should be the draft plan with spannwerk

If I am right, then the layout of the wires looks fine, as does the positioning and type of signals. However, you need an Einfahrsignal (Hp0/Hp1/Hp2) to enter the station with an associated Vorsignal. If the station is a dead-end (i.e. none of the brown tracks continue to the left), then I am not sure if the Vorsignal would be worked or just fixed in the Vr0 position.


I said no spannwerk because I have not indicated any external spannwerk on the plan, only troughing. This relates to my previous post regarding when spannwerk is used and so whether or not I have visible spannwerk will depend on whether I use a single floor signal tower or a two story signal tower with internal spannwerk.

In regards to the entry Einfahrsignal (Hp0/Hp1/Hp2), my branch station has local control with no signals with exit signals only required as it clears entry onto the approach track from one of three directions. I had thought with the plan that since there is only one approach track which the train would already have signal clearance to enter, he would then have a clear route either into the station or off to either branch?



Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
I have just found this page which shows a nice set of wire runs, troughs, ducts, spannwerke etc
http://rgebhard.de/seite885.htm

and looking further at this, the whole website has lots of pictures which are excellent for modelling details
http://rgebhard.de/seite65.htm


This is fantastic thanks! A great example of real world application and it seems that my post about external spannwerk for single floor signal towers is shown true here.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Robert Davies  
#20 Posted : 13 April 2017 13:42:33(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
[You need a set of spannwerk for every wire-operated device i.e. every set of points and every signal.


Interesting because I see many examples where no spannwerk is visible which is also shown in the Weinert guide - in these cases though I believe the spannwerk is contained in the lower floor of the stellwerk (signal tower), with the interlocks on the upper floor with the operators. Is that correct?
If so, then it must mean that single story signal towers would typically have external spannwerk for all lines and the larger two story signal towers would typically not have any external spannwerk - unless the signal tower was 'full' with no room for them internally and may then have lineside spannwerk?

You answered this question for yourself in the later post, and thank you for doing so. It is a fact that I had never noticed before but it makes complete sense now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post

I don't know if there is a specific standard for this but unlike compensators in rod-driven systems which have to be placed in exactly the right position, spannwerk can be put anywhere to achieve the desired result. I have often seen them grouped together not far from the signalbox but I think you have free choice.


I guess this question arises based on the product offering from Noch:
http://www.noch.com/en/p...y-bracket-set-13610.html

Here you can clearly see the cables connected from the weichenspannwerk to the turnout, however there is no visible connection on the other end of the spannwerk.
Is this a lack of detail from the Noch example, or would one assume the cables from the signal tower to the spannwerk would be run in underground troughing either straight under the platform or at a right angle perhaps to a signal tower off screen to the left?

I think this is Noch not knowing what they are doing. Very often done when it come to signalling!

Quote:
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post

To go back on what I said in my original post, I have just come across this http://www.km-1.de/html/spannwerke.html . From this it is clear that there is a difference between signalspannwerke and weichenspannwerke - my apologies - although they both work on the same principle. (I have edited my original post accordingly.) Whether this is to do with needing higher tension in point wires or what to do if a signal wire breaks, I don't know. Basically, the two wires enter from the left, go round two of the bottom pulley wheels, then up and over the pulley wheels attached to the arm with the weight, then back down and round the other two wheels at the bottom and go off to the right.


I find that website to be contradictory to the other models I have seen presented. I think they have labelled the signal and weichen spannwerk the wrong way
Ie. the spannwerk and weichenspannwerk are opposites to what is shown from Noch and Weinert:

Signalspannwerk:
https://www.modellbahnsh...-de-p-0/ein_produkt.html
https://www.modellbahnsh...-de-p-0/ein_produkt.html

weichenspannwerk:
https://www.modellbahnsh...-de-p-0/ein_produkt.html
https://www.modellbahnsh...-de-p-0/ein_produkt.html


I have to admit that I don't know what the rod thing on the front of the spannwerk does. My guess is that it is some kind of ratchet device that stops the weights falling too far if a wire breaks but why it should be configured differently for signals and points and which one is which I cannot say.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
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Offline Robert Davies  
#21 Posted : 13 April 2017 13:59:53(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
draft plan with no spannwerk:

Stellwerk_branch.jpg


If I understand this correctly, this is the drawing showing the wire runs, so should be the draft plan with spannwerk

If I am right, then the layout of the wires looks fine, as does the positioning and type of signals. However, you need an Einfahrsignal (Hp0/Hp1/Hp2) to enter the station with an associated Vorsignal. If the station is a dead-end (i.e. none of the brown tracks continue to the left), then I am not sure if the Vorsignal would be worked or just fixed in the Vr0 position.


I said no spannwerk because I have not indicated any external spannwerk on the plan, only troughing. This relates to my previous post regarding when spannwerk is used and so whether or not I have visible spannwerk will depend on whether I use a single floor signal tower or a two story signal tower with internal spannwerk.

Ok - I understand now about the plan and we have now reached an understanding about where the spannwerke might go.

Quote:
In regards to the entry Einfahrsignal (Hp0/Hp1/Hp2), my branch station has local control with no signals with exit signals only required as it clears entry onto the approach track from one of three directions. I had thought with the plan that since there is only one approach track which the train would already have signal clearance to enter, he would then have a clear route either into the station or off to either branch?

I don't think that that arrangement is very likely, although you may have a prototypical example in which case I stand corrected. My belief is that if you need signals to exit the station on to the single line, you would have an entry signal leave the single line and enter the station. If when you say "the train would already have signal clearance to enter" you mean that there is a (hidden) entry signal at the station out of sight, then fine but if you mean that the signal is at the other end of the single line controlled from somewhere different then there is nothing to stop an approaching train from entering the station even if the points were not set correctly.

An alternative, if this station is very little used, would be not to have signals at all and just use stop boards and hand points but that rather defeats the objective of wanting to model signalling!!




Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Robert Davies
Offline applor  
#22 Posted : 14 April 2017 02:48:31(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post

I don't think that that arrangement is very likely, although you may have a prototypical example in which case I stand corrected. My belief is that if you need signals to exit the station on to the single line, you would have an entry signal leave the single line and enter the station. If when you say "the train would already have signal clearance to enter" you mean that there is a (hidden) entry signal at the station out of sight, then fine but if you mean that the signal is at the other end of the single line controlled from somewhere different then there is nothing to stop an approaching train from entering the station even if the points were not set correctly.

An alternative, if this station is very little used, would be not to have signals at all and just use stop boards and hand points but that rather defeats the objective of wanting to model signalling!!



I have been going back through my planning stages as I did originally have a signal in the position you described, though it was then later removed.

Here is my signal thread which I also ended up posting on Stummis forum:

https://www.marklin-user...al-design-for-new-layout

I didn't receive any further comments on either forum about the final branch station design so considered it be acceptable.

I can see from your logic that you are likely correct. I should have another signal, likely just before the turnouts. This signal would control access to any of the 3 directions.
The annoying part is this means I need to buy another signal and decoder (since I have already used the exact ports available)
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Robert Davies  
#23 Posted : 14 April 2017 13:45:22(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

I can see from your logic that you are likely correct. I should have another signal, likely just before the turnouts. This signal would control access to any of the 3 directions.
The annoying part is this means I need to buy another signal and decoder (since I have already used the exact ports available)

I know that feeling only too well!! I have prepared many diagrams of the signalling for my proposed layout and the requirements always go up, never down. At the moment the signal count (all types) stands at 117, with 52 k83's and 28 s88's. Somebody lock me up please!
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
Offline jcrtrains  
#24 Posted : 14 April 2017 16:23:37(UTC)
jcrtrains

Canada   
Joined: 31/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 597
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Thanks so much for this thread folks. It is very informative and I will refer back to it for an additional line side detailing project.

I will continue on with catenary and then add this 'very carefully ' afterwards.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by jcrtrains
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