4 Pages<1234> Go to Page...

Why does 3-rail AC still exist? Share  Email this topic  LinkBack Topic URL  Retweet this Topic  Share Topic on Google+  Like this Topic  Share on Facebook  Digg this Topic  Reddit this Topic  Share on Tumblr Options  Watch this topic  Print this topic View » Normal Threaded

Previous Topic Next Topic

baggio		#101 Posted : 12 February 2017 20:51:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,730 Location: Toronto		Originally Posted by: Purellum And you didn't answer my question; how many times have you changed from 2-rail to 3-rail and back ?? Maybe it's timer to back off? Besides, what difference does it make if it's 1 or 100?
		Toronto Model Trains Fun Club
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Minok		#102 Posted : 12 February 2017 20:53:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		Originally Posted by: Goofy I like more two rail better than three rail,just because it´s more easier to build up layout and simulate prototype. In fact did i had Märklin layout and did tested by found out K tracks rust and oxid. I don't see how it is easier to build with the 2 rail system as there is more work and electronics needed to build 2 rail solutions. The nature is any track performance in whatever climate conditions you use them has no bearing on 2 vs 3 conductor systems.
		Toys of tin and wood rule! --- My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4 My YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@intercity134
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Purellum		#103 Posted : 12 February 2017 21:03:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: baggio Originally Posted by: Purellum And you didn't answer my question; how many times have you changed from 2-rail to 3-rail and back ?? Maybe it's timer to back off? Besides, what difference does it make if it's 1 or 100? The reason why I ask how many times Goofy have changed system, is because no matter which system he uses, the opposite system is always "crap" and the users are "stupid". Statements like that, coming from a guy who changes his mind once a year, make me laugh; but I also find it important to inform new users of this forum, to put things in perspective. Apart from that you're right, it's not nice to highjack a topic like this, so MAYBE I'll back off a little. Per.
		If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
6 users liked this useful post by Purellum		baggio, Bigdaddynz, petestra, Roland, Joe Meiring, GlennM
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

TEEWolf		#104 Posted : 12 February 2017 21:55:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: Purellum Goofy, how many times have you changed from 2-rail to 3-rail and back ?? Reading your old posts, and your reasons for changing is quite funny: One of the times from 2-rail to 3-rail: https://www.marklin-user...orum/posts/t5146-Im-back "So this time it will been Marklin forever." Per. Thank you for this hint to Goofy's post as "Einsteinkiller" from August 12th, 2006 - yes 2006! Now I know, why he chooses for himself the avtar name Goofy. I prefer the Micky Mouse, although I met them both very funny, happy and relaxed in Orlando, Florida.
		WWW
1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf		petestra
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

TEEWolf		#105 Posted : 12 February 2017 22:03:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: RayF I'm surprised this thread has received so much attention. Is this not yet another chapter in the endless argument of 2-rail vs 3-rail, AC vs DC, mfx vs dcc, etc? The same old arguments always come up, and the results are always inconclusive. My own opinion is that 3-rail AC pre-dates (generally) 2 rail DC and is still around because there is enough interest from existing users to keep it going, irrespective of whether it is better or worse. Most manufacturers phased out their 3-rail products years ago in favour of 2-rail versions (Trix, Hornby, Electrotren etc). Nevertheless they continue to satisfy demand by producing AC versions of their 2-rail DC locos. Yes I agree with Ray. But what was never mentioned: how do you handle a railway triangle in a 2 rail DC system? Same as with the reverse loop? This occurs quite often. E.g. if you do just an 8 layout within a simple oval. You got 2 railway triangles already.
		WWW
1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf		petestra
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

TEEWolf		#106 Posted : 12 February 2017 22:08:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: baggio Originally Posted by: Purellum And you didn't answer my question; how many times have you changed from 2-rail to 3-rail and back ?? Maybe it's timer to back off? Besides, what difference does it make if it's 1 or 100? Oh - there is a big difference. One time it can be an error only. 100 times he must have gotten bloody fingers from building and destryoing over and over again all his layouts, tracks, signals, etc.
		WWW
1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf		petestra
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

H0		#107 Posted : 12 February 2017 23:02:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,463 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: seatrains That being said I saw a post on a blog about Brawa HO loks being set up to run both on AC and DC. Does anyone have experience with this? http://blog.lostentry.or...215-117-3-esu-31018.html That's ESU, not Brawa. It seems to work fine, at least with C track and presumably also with K track. For the Hobby range with plastic axles, Märklin use the same wheel sets for both two-rail and three-rail. With certain parameters for wheel width and wheel spacing you get wheel sets that work both on two-rail and three-rail. I know someone who modified a Märklin BR 185 for both two-rail and three-rail operation. Not as comfortable as ESU: after removing the centre-rail sliders you have to change some plugged connections inside the loco. The ESU locos do this automatically when the slider is removed. AFAIK ESU was not the first company to do this. I would like it if more companies would offer universal locos for two-rail and three-rail in the way ESU do. But maybe two-rail users don't like this as they have to pay for centre-rail sliders they don't need. But maybe manufacturers can say that special two-rail versions without slider would be more expensive than universal locos with slider.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
1 user liked this useful post by H0		seatrains
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Jabez		#108 Posted : 13 February 2017 01:48:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC) Posts: 636 Location: Brussels		Originally Posted by: TEEWolf I prefer the Micky Mouse, although I met them both very funny, happy and relaxed in Orlando, Florida. Perhaps you haven't heard of the circumstances of Minnie Mouse's petition for divorce from Mickey, but I'm afraid I can't repeat it here, even in the joke thread. I'll PM it if you wish. Jabez
		I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

dickinsonj		#109 Posted : 13 February 2017 02:05:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,809 Location: Crozet, Virginia		Originally Posted by: H0 AFAIK ESU was not the first company to do this. I would like it if more companies would offer universal locos for two-rail and three-rail in the way ESU do. I agree. My new ESU V 200 is amazing and with just the removal or the installation of the slider it is ready for either system. What could be better than that? I have too much invested into three-rail to consider changing at this point in time. I'm not sure what I would select if I had to start all over again, since they both have their pros and cons.
		Regards, Jim I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains! So many trains and so little time.
1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj		seatrains
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

seatrains		#110 Posted : 13 February 2017 06:36:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 676 Location: Shoreline, WA		sorry Tom, I meant ESU and said Brawa.....does anyone have experience with RC control for HO that was mentioned in the other thread as it would make the whole 2 rail - 3 rail discussion irrelevant?
		Thom European Train Enthusiast - Pacific Northwest Chapter 4th Division, Pacific Northwest Region, National Model Railroaders Association
		Facebook
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#111 Posted : 13 February 2017 09:19:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,289		Originally Posted by: Purellum The reason why I ask how many times Goofy have changed system, is because no matter which system he uses, the opposite system is always "crap" and the users are "stupid". Statements like that, coming from a guy who changes his mind once a year, make me laugh; but I also find it important to inform new users of this forum, to put things in perspective. Apart from that you're right, it's not nice to highjack a topic like this, so MAYBE I'll back off a little. Per. It was the old system made of Märklin with old mfx decoder and i was not alone to present like crap and stupid. Märklin do now offer better decoder and it´s big difference! It´s also big difference between two rail and three rail tracks. Märklin still produce K tracks which oxid a lot and my understand is to avoid Märklin tracks.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#112 Posted : 13 February 2017 09:26:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,289		Originally Posted by: Purellum But according to yourself, you're still running Märklin. And you didn't answer my question; how many times have you changed from 2-rail to 3-rail and back ?? Per. No i´m not running Märklin. I did tested with severals between Märklin and two rail,but did found that two rail wins. Märklin still produce three rail so long Märklinist support the system in the market,but i don´t. I buy wagons and need just change the wheels to DC.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Purellum		#113 Posted : 13 February 2017 10:32:33(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: Goofy No i´m not running Märklin.......... I buy wagons and need just change the wheels to DC.......... I think I spot a bit of contradicting information in your statement here. I also read yesterday that you consider yourself a Märklin-user because you have TRIX, has this changed ?? And reading your posts on the Danish forum "Baneforum" makes things even funnier; because just 4 weeks ago you were teaching people there, that K-track now is made of nickel-silver and do not rust. https://baneforum.dk/vie...=2129&p=12440#p12440 Have you sold your fantastic Märklin G12 ( 37588 ) ?? Per.
		If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
1 user liked this useful post by Purellum		Bigdaddynz
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

hxmiesa		#114 Posted : 13 February 2017 12:57:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,597 Location: Spain		Originally Posted by: Purellum And reading your posts on the Danish forum "Baneforum" makes things even funnier; because just 4 weeks ago you were teaching people there, that K-track now is made of nickel-silver and do not rust. About RUST; It is true that older K-track pieces can rust. But it is never the nikkel-silver rails; Those have always been good. (And the same goes for the ancient 21xx code track with rolled sheet-metal for rails. -as used in M-tracks too). The rust problem exist in the copper-tongues that connects the center-studs. Those rusted like hell! BUT... They were changed to phosphoriced copper around the year 2000 (methinks), so that is no longer a problem. Still, the iron center studs can rust; They are protected by black paint except for the running surface (where the pickup-slider passes), which WILL rust if not used for some time. The rust is usually light and not a problem. Personally I am using some old K-track pieces -some of which has been used in several "permanent" layouts, washed with water and soap several times to remove ballast. Cut, soldered on, etc. And they are NOT rusting, despite sitting for the last 10 years in my cold basement. The trick is to keep room humidity around 55%. Higher humidity increase chance for rust. Lower increase static electricity and general discomfort.
		Best regards Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain") http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
		WWW
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

H0		#115 Posted : 13 February 2017 13:10:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,463 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: hxmiesa But it is never the nikkel-silver rails Please note that K track has rolled tin-plate rails (rust is a problem) or steel rails (rust should not be a problem). Contact lids between track pieces is a different story. The centre-rail studs are always tin-plate and rust can be a problem with M track, K track, and C track. Run your trains often to keep them clean (or fast to get them clean). Märklin C track also has steel rails. Trix C track has nickel-silver rails. So you are absolutely right: it is never the nickel-silver rails that cause problems with Märklin K track. And I think that's why Per linked to Anders’ post.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
1 user liked this useful post by H0		petestra
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Roland		#116 Posted : 13 February 2017 15:55:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 09/11/2013(UTC) Posts: 336 Location: Toronto, Canada		Originally Posted by: Purellum ...I also find it important to inform new users of this forum, to put things in perspective. I fully agree. Too often, opinions are posted as "facts" and this can be misleading (and discouraging) to new or uninformed users who are trying to learn and research. I wonder if this forum system has the ability to enable up-voting and down-voting of posts, minimizing those which are voted by the community to be misleading/false/offensive. This would help inform newer users of which posts to take seriously and which to disregard.
		My Layout Build | Märklin CS3+ | K-track | Merkur | Viessmann | LDT | iTrain | Modeling primarily DB EpIV-VI
2 users liked this useful post by Roland		sjlauritsen, dave55uk
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#117 Posted : 13 February 2017 17:56:07(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,289		Originally Posted by: Purellum I think I spot a bit of contradicting information in your statement here. I also read yesterday that you consider yourself a Märklin-user because you have TRIX, has this changed ?? And reading your posts on the Danish forum "Baneforum" makes things even funnier; because just 4 weeks ago you were teaching people there, that K-track now is made of nickel-silver and do not rust. https://baneforum.dk/vie...=2129&p=12440#p12440 Have you sold your fantastic Märklin G12 ( 37588 ) ?? Per. No i did wrote spring connection,not the rail! Yes i did sold G12. What about if Märklin decides to produce three rail scale 1? I´m sure you certainly had begun to appeal immediately. You two rail scale 1 lover!
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

TEEWolf		#118 Posted : 13 February 2017 18:57:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: Goofy What about if Märklin decides to produce three rail scale 1? Well, I heard the rumor too. And the tracks shall be in Platin. Absolutely no rust shall be expected. The bad thing is. It will be only for billionairs.
		WWW
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

TEEWolf		#119 Posted : 13 February 2017 18:58:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: Jabez Perhaps you haven't heard of the circumstances of Minnie Mouse's petition for divorce from Mickey, but I'm afraid I can't repeat it here, even in the joke thread. I'll PM it if you wish. Jabez Yes please, let me know. Thanks in advance.
		WWW
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Purellum		#120 Posted : 13 February 2017 19:15:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: Goofy What about if Märklin decides to produce three rail scale 1? Scale 1 don't need a third rail, we can have two rails and still have two sliders / pickup shoes: Per.
		If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
3 users liked this useful post by Purellum		Bigdaddynz, hennabm, Moritz-BR365
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#121 Posted : 14 February 2017 06:26:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,289		Originally Posted by: Purellum Originally Posted by: Goofy What about if Märklin decides to produce three rail scale 1? Scale 1 don't need a third rail, we can have two rails and still have two sliders / pickup shoes: Per. Two rail slider replaces the wheels as contact. It has nothing to do about with three rail which stud contact is the third contact.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

river6109		#122 Posted : 14 February 2017 07:01:07(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,878 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: Webmaster For me, it's was no-brainer since I was a kid... Then I could take 2 M locos, place them front to front at some distance and crash them into eachother - very fun back then... Try that with analog DC... Nowadays I prefer the 3-rail since it's easier to wire, also in digital, since you know what you get - The logical "+" in the middle and the "-" in the rails... And - digital is not AC, it's DC with overlaid signals at constant +/- levels... It's an own kind of current/voltage - "Digital DC voltage"... Off topic and there were others who looked after their trains and never would have attempted crashing locos together. (quote from someone), I wasn't one of them. we had races with a flat 4 axle freight carriage (391/1), and the winner was who was able to push the car as long down the track with a 180° curve without falling off the track. and than there was the reversing spring by altering the tension, one was able to run the loco at 24 volts without the loco being able to reverse (3001), both are still in my collection. as a kid, you knew the only train you would receive is at Christmas and this is 12 month apart so in meantime you had to find ways to entertain yourself with other options to make your life more interesting just in case you seem to get bored at any stage. you wouldn't put a pin a football because this would have defeated the purpose playing with it, so the trains had been the obvious choice of getting a bit of a systematical treatment without completely ruining them and it looks like I wasn't able to do it with several attempts and getting more locos and rolling stock for Christmas it slowly sank in you suppose to play with them in an ordinary matter and enjoy the hobby for a few more years and I'm still at it, racing against the time to finish a layout which was build back in the 80's to have fun one more time John
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
		WWW
5 users liked this useful post by river6109		Pmare4, RayF, Danlake, Herrfleck, baggio
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

RayF		#123 Posted : 14 February 2017 09:57:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,871 Location: Gibraltar, Europe		Originally Posted by: river6109 Originally Posted by: Webmaster For me, it's was no-brainer since I was a kid... Then I could take 2 M locos, place them front to front at some distance and crash them into eachother - very fun back then... Try that with analog DC... Nowadays I prefer the 3-rail since it's easier to wire, also in digital, since you know what you get - The logical "+" in the middle and the "-" in the rails... And - digital is not AC, it's DC with overlaid signals at constant +/- levels... It's an own kind of current/voltage - "Digital DC voltage"... Off topic and there were others who looked after their trains and never would have attempted crashing locos together. (quote from someone), I wasn't one of them. we had races with a flat 4 axle freight carriage (391/1), and the winner was who was able to push the car as long down the track with a 180° curve without falling off the track. and than there was the reversing spring by altering the tension, one was able to run the loco at 24 volts without the loco being able to reverse (3001), both are still in my collection. as a kid, you knew the only train you would receive is at Christmas and this is 12 month apart so in meantime you had to find ways to entertain yourself with other options to make your life more interesting just in case you seem to get bored at any stage. you wouldn't put a pin a football because this would have defeated the purpose playing with it, so the trains had been the obvious choice of getting a bit of a systematical treatment without completely ruining them and it looks like I wasn't able to do it with several attempts and getting more locos and rolling stock for Christmas it slowly sank in you suppose to play with them in an ordinary matter and enjoy the hobby for a few more years and I'm still at it, racing against the time to finish a layout which was build back in the 80's to have fun one more time John I used to have a whale of a time with a "figure of eight" layout. Start two locos at random points on the "Eight" and make them both run until one hits the other at the crossing. The one that falls over is the loser! It was great fun watching the near misses until one loco hit the other. Another game was to load my wagons with Airfix soldiers and run the train around faster and faster until they fell off! One game I tried unsuccessfully a few times was to try to imitate my HotWheels track with my trains. It's quite hard to make a vertical loop with M-track, but somehow I managed it. I think I had to throw away a few sections of track afterwards, but I had loads so I didn't mind! Unforunately the poor 3000 loco that was my Guinea Pig would only get about a third of the way around the loop before falling over backwards. How it survived I'll never know! Oh Happy days!
		Ray Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
8 users liked this useful post by RayF		Bigdaddynz, Purellum, river6109, Danlake, Herrfleck, baggio, Pmare4, Chook
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

kiwiAlan		#124 Posted : 14 February 2017 17:03:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,509 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Originally Posted by: Goofy What about if Märklin decides to produce three rail scale 1? Well, I heard the rumor too. And the tracks shall be in Platin. Absolutely no rust shall be expected. The bad thing is. It will be only for billionairs. And we haven't even reached April 1 yet ...
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Jabez		#125 Posted : 14 February 2017 19:21:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC) Posts: 636 Location: Brussels		Originally Posted by: RayF Another game was to load my wagons with Airfix soldiers and run the train around faster and faster until they fell off! Sounds uncannily like the closing paragraph of Emile Zola's La Bête Humaine where the driverless troop train is hurtling through the night carrying soldiers to the Franco-Prussian war. Here is an English translation. What did it matter if a few people were killed as it went on its way? Was it not travelling towards the future? Why worry over a little spilled blood? The train ran on without a driver, on and on, like some mindless, unseeing beast, let loose on a field of carnage, with its burden of cannon-fodder, the soldiers, dead with fatigue, drunk and singing at the top of their voices. Today, with sound decoders, you could have them singing too Jabez
		I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
3 users liked this useful post by Jabez		RayF, michelvr, Jimmy Thompson
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Tex		#126 Posted : 15 February 2017 03:15:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 276 Location: Houston, Texas		It exists so I can continue to operate and enjoy my Marklin digital layout. Tex
4 users liked this useful post by Tex		dickinsonj, Johnvr, Minok, sjbartels
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Moritz-BR365		#127 Posted : 15 February 2017 10:58:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC) Posts: 683		Originally Posted by: Purellum Originally Posted by: Goofy What about if Märklin decides to produce three rail scale 1? Scale 1 don't need a third rail, we can have two rails and still have two sliders / pickup shoes: In USA, there is still a big market of 3-rail scale 0: http://shop.atlasrr.com/c-6-002.aspx http://3.bp.blogspot.com...mg_right__C_O_4_1200.jpg
		Modellbauhütte - Modelleisenbahn und mehr My crafting projects My MRR video collection
2 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365		Minok, Jimmy Thompson
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Jon V		#128 Posted : 02 November 2020 06:40:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 02/11/2020(UTC) Posts: 1 Location: Jawa Barat, Bekasi		Good day to all as a 56 year old man in Jakarta talking to his 84 year old dad back in Australia who started him then me on this lifetime love of MMR back in 1963 - still running gear from back in 1963..... the tech details aside -why would I look elsewhere . Remarkable kit! Regards Jon
6 users liked this useful post by Jon V		kimballthurlow, Bigdaddynz, davo_vespa, Jimmy Thompson, river6109, Munich 1860
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Bryan		#129 Posted : 02 November 2020 21:20:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia		Dear All There is a big difference between stud 3 rail current collection and 2 rail current collection. It is basically a physical property. With the Marklin 3 rail stud contact you are always wiping the centre studs which cleans them. On a 2 rail system you have a rolling contact as the wheels rotate that is not self clean situation. A 2 rail pickup on a loco can be just 3 insulated wheels on one side of the locomotive. With 3 rail you have a self cleaning contact on many spikes to get a very sound electrical contact. The basic difference is the wiping as against the rolling contact, wiping is far better. Marklin were right in continuing with 3 rail, it is a better system. Many years ago manufactures went from 3 rail to 2 rail and it was purely for looks, nothing to do with better current collection. Another important point about 3 rail is the traction tires. They in 3 rail do not have the electrical limitations as when used on 2 rail. With the current collection focused on the centre spikes the return current is on all the wheels. With 2 rail leaving some wheels with non conducting wheels does corse problems in 2 rail, never 3 rail. In the end it is all about electrical contact ability, 3 rail stud contact cannot beaten. Thank goodness Marklin stayed with 3 rail stud contact. Regards David
		WWW
5 users liked this useful post by Bryan		michelvr, David Dewar, Martti Mäntylä, Joe Meiring, Alsterstreek
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

michelvr		#130 Posted : 03 November 2020 00:33:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,320		Märklin 3 rail - all the others 2 rail = Number one on the electrical conductivity scale!
6 users liked this useful post by michelvr		river6109, seatrains, Joe Meiring, TrainIride, Alsterstreek, Webmaster
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

river6109		#131 Posted : 03 November 2020 04:52:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,878 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		I've used 3 rail for 65 years and haven't gone off the rail yet and having a layout for over 40 years I couldn't see 2 rail would have survived, my other 3rd rail is the overhead system and there have been many who said you can't use the overhead system with a digital system: wrong, wrong, wrong, I've used it successfully for 40 years. John Edited at: by user 03 November 2020 13:49:41(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
		WWW
8 users liked this useful post by river6109		seatrains, PJMärklin, dickinsonj, michelvr, GLI, Joe Meiring, TrainIride, sgtb
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

cookee_nz		#132 Posted : 05 November 2020 05:02:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 4,000 Location: Paremata, Wellington		Because discerning modellers like us keep buying it
		Cookee Wellington
		WWW Facebook Google+
5 users liked this useful post by cookee_nz		PJMärklin, David Dewar, michelvr, Roland, dickinsonj
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

vmsysprog		#133 Posted : 05 November 2020 05:12:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 09/09/2010(UTC) Posts: 63		Originally Posted by: Carim If 3-rail AC is so easy to use from an electrical perspective, why did Marklin go for 2-rail DC for Z gauge? Was it that they couldn't fit the reverse units into such small locos? Carim You can run a DC lok on three rail if you remove the reverse unit electronics and use a DC motor. Nothing says 3 rail has to be AC. Conversely, you can use AC on 2 rail so long as the motor is AC. An example would be American Flyer S gauge. They used AC motors up to the 1980’s (not 100% sure on that). They then went with DC motors and still used AC transformers. The AC got rectified to DC in the lok. 2 rail DC Z gauge. A DC motor is a lot simpler and smaller and cheaper than an AC motor. Steve
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

mvd71		#134 Posted : 05 November 2020 08:26:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,934 Location: Auckland,		We still have three rail AC because it’s the best!!!
4 users liked this useful post by mvd71		Johnvr, David Dewar, river6109, sgtb
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

hxmiesa		#135 Posted : 05 November 2020 10:41:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,597 Location: Spain		Originally Posted by: mvd71 We still have three rail AC because it’s the best!!! Ah! -NOW I understand everything! Good argument!
		Best regards Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain") http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
		WWW
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

stockerta		#136 Posted : 05 November 2020 10:55:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/07/2018(UTC) Posts: 52 Location: Gyor-Moson-Sopron, Sopron		On a local MRR group in FB the topic of AC vs DC came up recently (again) and of course we had the arguments that: - Märklin is the apple of the mrr world and only fanboys and idiots are buying it - it is obsolete because it doesn't implements the newer NEM standards for rails instead using its own. - metal bodies can't have the same detail than plastic ones so Marklin is sh*t. etc. Conclusion: people haven't seen a Marklin model in 40+ years. My youngest loc is 30+ years old and is plastic... And you can't argue with them because we are fanboys and don't know what we are talking about. I think I will leave that group, it is getting old fast.
1 user liked this useful post by stockerta		Alsterstreek
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

michelvr		#137 Posted : 05 November 2020 14:27:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,320		Originally Posted by: stockerta Conclusion: people haven't seen a Marklin model in 40+ years. My youngest loc is 30+ years old and is plastic... You hit the nail on the head! From my experiences (pre-COVID-19) with Canadian train aficionados visiting my layout, and I’m talking those rivet counters with their keen eyes! They all think my layout is 2 rail until I show them the middle puko’s! SURPRISE!! And then when I mention I collect Märklin! I get the “Oh, I Thought Märklin was three rail?”
1 user liked this useful post by michelvr		Webmaster
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

JohnjeanB		#138 Posted : 05 November 2020 15:27:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,578 Location: Paris, France		Hi The key thing about Märklin 3 rails is operation. No other system provides such qualities: - symmetric current pick-up allowing all track figures not requiring any electrical gimmick , - reliable current pick-up and self cleaning studs, - easy, reliable and simple presence/occupation detection detecting every single axle without fancy needs as current measurement, resistor axles, - easy switch operation not requiring fancy frog connection, - durability of all-metal locos and trains Yes the system is not perfect but it has so many qualities that the choice is evident for operation. Yes if this is about pure landscaping those discreet studs are really an annoyance especially at switches Here is my tribute to the Märklin system: PS I have used a 2 rail system in N scale and really there is nothing to compare Cheers Jean
		My layout videos latest vid marshalling yard My Layout
5 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB		bph, michelvr, Webmaster, dickinsonj, river6109
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

stockerta		#139 Posted : 05 November 2020 16:12:06(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/07/2018(UTC) Posts: 52 Location: Gyor-Moson-Sopron, Sopron		Oh and I forgot the "M only supports its own digital protocol and not the standard dcc" argument, but it is a bit better than the other I got that it isn't digital. Facepalm
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

hxmiesa		#140 Posted : 05 November 2020 16:44:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,597 Location: Spain		Originally Posted by: stockerta Oh and I forgot the "M only supports its own digital protocol and not the standard dcc" argument, but it is a bit better than the other I got that it isn't digital. And now it DOES support DCC too, finally! I know that River6109 (John) has a nice story about a guy NOT visiting his train-show, because of the 3rd rail...
		Best regards Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain") http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
		WWW
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

TEEWolf		#141 Posted : 05 November 2020 22:55:50(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465		Originally Posted by: mvd71 We still have three rail AC because it’s the best!!! Indeed, if anybody wants to use two rail DC - all right, he has the choice! Just buy TRIX. But three rail AC makes hobby-life much easier. No thoughts about polarity building a triangle and/or "a simple reverse loop track" in real life, not only as a plan. See another thread here.
		WWW
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

river6109		#142 Posted : 06 November 2020 05:54:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,878 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Originally Posted by: stockerta Oh and I forgot the "M only supports its own digital protocol and not the standard dcc" argument, but it is a bit better than the other I got that it isn't digital. And now it DOES support DCC too, finally! I know that River6109 (John) has a nice story about a guy NOT visiting his train-show, because of the 3rd rail... Some weird argument or bet, drove 250 km to see the layout, paid the entry fee and asked if it was 2 rails, when I told him it was 3 rail he left the building and I assume drove 250km back to Perth (Western Australia) , I never found out the reason but it was one of a rare incident. John
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
		WWW
5 users liked this useful post by river6109		PeFu, stockerta, Gregor, TrainIride, petestra
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

TrainIride		#143 Posted : 06 November 2020 15:25:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC) Posts: 2,061 Location: FRANCE		Originally Posted by: river6109 Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Originally Posted by: stockerta Oh and I forgot the "M only supports its own digital protocol and not the standard dcc" argument, but it is a bit better than the other I got that it isn't digital. And now it DOES support DCC too, finally! I know that River6109 (John) has a nice story about a guy NOT visiting his train-show, because of the 3rd rail... Some weird argument or bet, drove 250 km to see the layout, paid the entry fee and asked if it was 2 rails, when I told him it was 3 rail he left the building and I assume drove 250km back to Perth (Western Australia) , I never found out the reason but it was one of a rare incident. John this fellow had to have a one track mind Joël
		Marklin HO - M track & C track - Analog mode - https://www.marklin-users.net/TrainIride - my channel : https://www.youtube.com/user/2mes2mains
		WWW
2 users liked this useful post by TrainIride		David Dewar, Joe Meiring
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

petestra		#144 Posted : 06 November 2020 18:52:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 5,862 Location: Leesburg,VA.USA		If people don't like 3 rail AC all I can do is to think of that old song by The Doors, "People Are Strange". Cheers! Peter.
		Facebook
3 users liked this useful post by petestra		Alsterstreek, Joe Meiring, TrainIride
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

1borna		#145 Posted : 06 November 2020 21:15:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/12/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,500 Location: Hrvatska		I read everything in this topic and did not find one important + for Marklin and that is the behavior of locomotives that with built-in gearboxes mimic the real ones (each can drive differently than the others) while DCs are all dependent on polarity on the rails! Today with DCC this is no longer the case but there are still a lot of those with only DC.
		BLOG
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

river6109		#146 Posted : 07 November 2020 06:31:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,878 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: TrainIride Originally Posted by: river6109 Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Originally Posted by: stockerta Oh and I forgot the "M only supports its own digital protocol and not the standard dcc" argument, but it is a bit better than the other I got that it isn't digital. And now it DOES support DCC too, finally! I know that River6109 (John) has a nice story about a guy NOT visiting his train-show, because of the 3rd rail... Some weird argument or bet, drove 250 km to see the layout, paid the entry fee and asked if it was 2 rails, when I told him it was 3 rail he left the building and I assume drove 250km back to Perth (Western Australia) , I never found out the reason but it was one of a rare incident. John this fellow had to have a one track mind Joël forward and reverse
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
		WWW
1 user liked this useful post by river6109		Joe Meiring
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

kimballthurlow		#147 Posted : 07 November 2020 07:13:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,765 Location: Brisbane, Australia		The simple answer to the original question in my view is: Märklin have so much respect for their customers that almost everything they make is backward compatible. Hence they still use the 3 rail system. Couplers from the 1940s will still couple to the latest Märklin rolling stock. Wheels from the 1940s are still compatible with the latest Märklin track. You can drive the latest digital locos on the old Märklin tinplate track from pre-1940. If Hornby Dublo had stuck with their 3 rail track in the UK and the British Commonwealth, maybe (??) Hornby Dublo would still be being made. regards Kimball
		HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
		WWW
6 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow		Alsterstreek, Joe Meiring, David Dewar, TrainIride, Martti Mäntylä, dickinsonj
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

RayF		#148 Posted : 07 November 2020 11:06:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,871 Location: Gibraltar, Europe		Every rules has at least one exception, and I believe Marklin to be the exception to the widely held rule that scale model railways have to be 2 rail to be realistic. There are two problematic aspects of 3 rail that need to be taken into account, the studs in the centre of the track and the slider on the locomotives. In my opinion on C track the studs are hardly visible, especially when they've worn down a bit. You soon learn to ignore them anyway. The sliders can be very visible on some locos and not visible at all on others, so careful choice of loco is important if you want to avoid the shiny metal thing stuck under the loco!
		Ray Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
9 users liked this useful post by RayF		river6109, Joe Meiring, David Dewar, michelvr, TrainIride, Bigdaddynz, Martti Mäntylä, PJMärklin, dickinsonj
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

river6109		#149 Posted : 07 November 2020 13:03:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,878 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: RayF Every rules has at least one exception, and I believe Marklin to be the exception to the widely held rule that scale model railways have to be 2 rail to be realistic. There are two problematic aspects of 3 rail that need to be taken into account, the studs in the centre of the track and the slider on the locomotives. In my opinion on C track the studs are hardly visible, especially when they've worn down a bit. You soon learn to ignore them anyway. The sliders can be very visible on some locos and not visible at all on others, so careful choice of loco is important if you want to avoid the shiny metal thing stuck under the loco! There are so many different aspect why you have a model railway or layout and most of us started quite a while ago and those days I didn't think it was an issue not that I'm saying its an issue now., its a bit like a marriage, some people end their marriage to change the environment around them others stay with the same partner a life long period, so we got used to the centre stud and slider (long or short) , we could also say why do we have castles, Victorian or Edwardian houses, saved steam locos, I think it is something from the past we appreciate and like to preserve, its never given me a headache, it has never been difficult to put together, it never failed, its operational, you have to ask yourself the question: why do layout designers and producers chose the Märklin system and not 2 rail ? unless there is a future design whereas the slider will be obsolete and replaced by a rotor and the sleeper will be the middle contact. John
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
		WWW
2 users liked this useful post by river6109		petestra, hxmiesa
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

kiwiAlan		#150 Posted : 07 November 2020 23:27:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,509 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: RayF In my opinion on C track the studs are hardly visible, especially when they've worn down a bit. You soon learn to ignore them anyway. A number of times I have had to point out to people that centre studs on C track, because they haven't realised they are there. Originally Posted by: RayF The sliders can be very visible on some locos and not visible at all on others, so careful choice of loco is important if you want to avoid the shiny metal thing stuck under the loco! It is a shame that they haven't done anything to blacken the pickup shoe, instead of having a bright nickel plating on the top and edges. The spring could do with being blackened as well, but that may result in electrical conductivity issues.
1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan		RayF
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Users browsing this topic

Guest

4 Pages<1234> Go to Page...