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Offline Alsterstreek  
#51 Posted : 06 February 2017 10:46:16(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,656
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jcrtrains Go to Quoted Post
Reverse loops in DC are a non-issue. These have been solved simply for ages using the following type of reverser. I have used them on previous layouts and they are less than 10$ as shown below

Atlas reverser


Märklin's own reverser (yes, there actually is one):
http://www.maerklinshop....sArticle/2/number/T66846


Euro 69.99 per piece (plus shipping).

And I would need seven of those in a 2 rail environment...
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Offline RayF  
#52 Posted : 06 February 2017 12:52:18(UTC)
RayF

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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,836
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I'm surprised this thread has received so much attention. Is this not yet another chapter in the endless argument of 2-rail vs 3-rail, AC vs DC, mfx vs dcc, etc?

The same old arguments always come up, and the results are always inconclusive.

My own opinion is that 3-rail AC pre-dates (generally) 2 rail DC and is still around because there is enough interest from existing users to keep it going, irrespective of whether it is better or worse. Most manufacturers phased out their 3-rail products years ago in favour of 2-rail versions (Trix, Hornby, Electrotren etc). Nevertheless they continue to satisfy demand by producing AC versions of their 2-rail DC locos.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline petestra  
#53 Posted : 06 February 2017 13:19:17(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
That's true, Ray. Why is this even being discussed here on the Marklin-users.net????? Yes, Marklin makes two rail and has for years beginning

with HAMO but most of us are 3 rail and that's why we're here. Peter.Confused
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Offline Rwill  
#54 Posted : 06 February 2017 13:41:42(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 777
Location: England, London
This thread is like the age old question:

Why do dogs (and cats) lick their bits?

Because they can.
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Offline Carim  
#55 Posted : 06 February 2017 14:14:20(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 648
Location: London
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post

Märklin's own reverser (yes, there actually is one):
http://www.maerklinshop....sArticle/2/number/T66846


Euro 69.99 per piece (plus shipping).

And I would need seven of those in a 2 rail environment...


Why wouldn't you just use some rail breaks and seven DPDT switches (@ about £3 each)?

Carim
Offline Carim  
#56 Posted : 06 February 2017 14:18:03(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 648
Location: London
If 3-rail AC is so easy to use from an electrical perspective, why did Marklin go for 2-rail DC for Z gauge? Was it that they couldn't fit the reverse units into such small locos?

Carim
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H0
Offline H0  
#57 Posted : 06 February 2017 15:05:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
If 3-rail AC is so easy to use from an electrical perspective, why did Marklin go for 2-rail DC for Z gauge? Was it that they couldn't fit the reverse units into such small locos?
They also chose two-rail when they relaunched 1 gauge.
Size was an issue with Z gauge 40+ years ago, but surely wasn't a problem for 1 gauge.

In Germany the H0 market seems to be about 50% two-rail and about 50% three-rail.
I wouldn't be surprised if the global H0 market would be about 90% two-rail and about 10% three-rail.
Does anyone know some statistics?

Three-rail AC is easy to use, but two-rail DC makes cheaper analogue locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline franciscohg  
#58 Posted : 06 February 2017 15:21:33(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,254
Location: Patagonia
And that is something i cannot understand, having many 3 rail versions of DC locos i think the overprize is too much for the extra work and parts.
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Goofy  
#59 Posted : 06 February 2017 17:57:25(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,957
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


Three-rail AC is easy to use, but two-rail DC makes cheaper analogue locos.


No...three rail is not easy if you want to add ballast and use water glue to fix the ballast.
It´s more difficult than two rail.
Two rail is more easy to use with flex track.
Who buys two rail analog locomotives of today when the market floats with the digital system and sound decoder??

Back to topic:
So long there is Märklinist in the world,three rail still produce.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Karl Gunnar Sjöqvist  
#60 Posted : 06 February 2017 19:04:01(UTC)
Karl Gunnar Sjöqvist


Joined: 07/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
If 3-rail AC is so easy to use from an electrical perspective, why did Marklin go for 2-rail DC for Z gauge? Was it that they couldn't fit the reverse units into such small locos?

Carim


Yes, probably in 1972 it was hard to produce a reverse unit that size. And for such small locos it was probably best to keep them as simple as possible. All Z locos are still analogue, which means power goes straight into the motor...

For gauge 1 the reason for using 2-rail was probably esteathic, difficult to hide the studs in 1:32 scale. But they kept AC power - that confuses me... In digital it doesn't matter any more.
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Offline Minok  
#61 Posted : 06 February 2017 20:46:25(UTC)
Minok

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Posts: 2,309
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
To be clear the difference between 3-rail and 2-rail have to do with the way the electrical conductors connect and how easily one can build up an arbitrary layout form a box of track. AC or DC is not really relevant as one can have a 3 conductor DC system or a 2 conductor AC system (even though 3 conductor is traditionally AC ).

With the 3 conductor solution you just connect up the track and your done. No other concerns about shorts and loops. This makes the solution ideal for temporary carpet layouts and youth/child entry.
No messing around with detection zones on reversing loop modules and needing to isolate track sections... that would be a big obstacle to the young and to quickly building a layout on the floor.

So the ability to market and sell to a select audience the capability to quickly and easily build a layout and get it running is an advantage.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#62 Posted : 06 February 2017 20:56:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,245
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
With the 3 conductor solution you just connect up the track and your done.
The three-conductor track is known as Trix Express and has problems with reversing.
If you want it simple you have to take the two-conductor three-rail track.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Minok  
#63 Posted : 06 February 2017 21:13:46(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
With the 3 conductor solution you just connect up the track and your done.
The three-conductor track is known as Trix Express and has problems with reversing.
If you want it simple you have to take the two-conductor three-rail track.



Terminology differences. Each rail is a conductor and the center pickups is another conductor - hence 3 conductor. How the conductors are connected up is a separate issue. (eg in Maeklin C-track where 2 of the rails are electrically connected by default, vs other solutions). By 3 conductor I mean a center conductor and return power on the outside rails (either or both ) The Trix Express, which if I understand it, is 3 conductors and each electrically separate so the two rails are not electrically equivalent (as they carry signals for differing trains ).. yeah there you still have the same reverse loop problems. When the left and right rails cannot be connected to each other, thats the problem that makes building a layout quickly and simply more problematic.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline dominator  
#64 Posted : 06 February 2017 21:51:06(UTC)
dominator

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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,194
Location: Kerikeri
With the 3 conductor solution you just connect up the track and your done. No other concerns about shorts and loops. This makes the solution ideal for temporary carpet layouts and youth/child entry.
No messing around with detection zones on reversing loop modules and needing to isolate track sections... that would be a big obstacle to the young and to quickly building a layout on the floor.

I think you have hit the nail on the head Thomas.



For me, it's was no-brainer since I was a kid...

Then I could take 2 M locos, place them front to front at some distance and crash them into eachother - very fun back then... Try that with analog DC... Crying Blushing Blink

Juhan, please dont tell our grandkids


Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline mrmarklin  
#65 Posted : 06 February 2017 23:22:41(UTC)
mrmarklin

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Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 889
Location: Burney, CA
IMHO 3 rail exists mostly for historic reasons.

Back in the 30s there were miniaturization problems with the motors and 3 rail ensured reliable electrical connections as well. Marklin, while called HO, was really OO scale as to the models, albeit run on HO scale track. This became and still is, the most popular train system in Germany. We have a parallel here in the US. Lionel O scale was the most popular train system in the first half of the 1900s. It is a 3 rail system for many of the same reasons Marklin became 3 rail. It is very popular to this day. Note also that Trix, the real HO pioneer, also began with a three rail system, albeit using DC protocol and a clever isolation system to run two trains independently on one track. Trix has tried to put this system out of business, but there is still enough base of users to keep making the occasional items.

Marklin and Lionel thus had after WWII a giant legacy of users that they could not make obsolete, so of course the virtues of three rails were touted(electrical pickup,ease of wiring etc), especially by Marklin.
Both systems remain popular, especially Marklin with over 50% of the German market and I assume, large percentages in neighboring countries.

I would assume that if both systems were to begin today with current technology, they would be two rail. So we don't need it, but the legacy is strong.

Personally, I migrated from US two rail to the Marklin system because of the operating reliability that the system had over the US systems extant in the early 1980s. I was unaware at the time of European two rail systems and their quality. Had I known, a different decision may have been made. In any event, I've been very happy with Marklin. And the European qualitative difference both two and three rail is still significant.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline TEEWolf  
#66 Posted : 07 February 2017 05:10:48(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post

And the European qualitative difference both two and three rail is still significant.


What is by Trix? I did not test it, but I think it is the same quality as Maerklin. For me it looks like that Maerklin will make Trix more and more to the "2 rail Maerklin system". Because all items offered by Maerklin gets more and more offered by Trix in 2 rail technique with DCC instead Maerklins mfx+.

I bought rolling material from Trix and I see no difference to Maerklin, except design, like color, etc. But this was the reason, I bought Trix. BigGrin
Offline H0  
#67 Posted : 07 February 2017 08:10:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,245
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Terminology differences. Each rail is a conductor and the center pickups is another conductor - hence 3 conductor.
Let's talk about M track. Where is the third conductor? Or is it four-conductor as we have a metal track bed?

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline H0  
#68 Posted : 07 February 2017 08:20:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,245
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I bought rolling material from Trix and I see no difference to Maerklin, except design, like color, etc.
With Trix rolling stock they sometimes cut off parts from the truck.
I assume they need more space, either for the large flanges or for the large couplers. So far I noticed this with 3xxxx numbers only, not with 2xxxx numbers.

Quite often Trix items have a Trix sticker that covers the engraved Märklin logo.
Sometimes Märklin items have a Märklin sticker that covers the engraved Trix logo.
Some items have been made with engraved Märklin logo or engraved Trix logo as needed.
The Tillig tank cars that came in a Märklin box have Märklin stickers at the bottom. The Fleischmann coaches and the Fleischmann loco that came in Märklin boxes have Märklin engraved at the bottom.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#69 Posted : 07 February 2017 10:33:59(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,657
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the global H0 market would be about 90% two-rail and about 10% three-rail.


100% Three-Rail in our club, none of this two-rail rubbish! WinkWink

With the exception of 1 Gauge and Z Gauge layouts, of course.
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#70 Posted : 07 February 2017 12:33:14(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
With the exception of 1 Gauge and Z Gauge layouts, of course.

So lots of two-rail rubbish then... wink
Offline MaerklinLife  
#71 Posted : 07 February 2017 12:42:31(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I did not test it, but I think it is the same quality as Maerklin. For me it looks like that Maerklin will make Trix more and more to the "2 rail Maerklin system". Because all items offered by Maerklin gets more and more offered by Trix in 2 rail technique with DCC instead Maerklins mfx+.

With regards to standard H0, Trix items are exactly the same as the Märklin items. The only difference is the slider underneath. On Trix models it is replaced with a clip that goes to the side of the wheels instead - and of course DC wheel sets.

Other than that, same model, Trix sticker slapped on and that is it. For some odd ball reason Märklin differs the decoders so Trix versions comes without mfx+. I don't know why they could not just make a DCC, mfx and mfx+ decoder to fit all their models. There is no technical reason for not doing this.

My guess is that Märklin tries to create some extra "value" over the 2-rail version. But that is a guess. Trix customers who have purchased the CS2 are missing out of some features.

The 36xxx models are all DC models by design. They have isolated wheel sets with a wire making the connection on the AC-version. To convert them to 2-rail, simply remove the slider, remove the wire connecting the two power pickups and dedicate one side's power pickups to replace the slider. Job's done, instant DC model. IMO most of the 36xxx models are available as better versions from other manufactuers, but that is my opinion. If someone wants a 36xxx model from Märklin, they can easily convert it. Lot of them are available as Trix though.

With Trix you get almost everything Märklin in a 2-rail world - if you want that. Some do, some do not. Some 2-rail users seems to think that Märklin is the worst thing ever. I mostly ignore that. Some 3-rail users seem to think that Märklin is the only thing that matters. I ignore them too. wink

Don't get me wrong, I love my Märklin collection, I just do not see a reason to be fanatic about a particular brand, digital system or electrical system. I just think it is a healthy thing to acknowledge that other people might have other needs and that there are competing manufacturers that do a pretty good job in making great models and digital systems.
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Offline H0  
#72 Posted : 07 February 2017 13:26:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,245
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
With regards to standard H0, Trix items are exactly the same as the Märklin items.
Sometime they cut off parts from the truck frames for the Trix versions.

Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
The 36xxx models are all DC models by design.
I don't think so. Just look at the BR 216 #36216. That one most likely has metal axles. I'd expect the same for some models of DHG 500/700.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#73 Posted : 07 February 2017 19:28:55(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Sometime they cut off parts from the truck frames for the Trix versions

I have not seen that. Do you mean with regards to the Trix Express versions? Because I did write "standard H0" by which I did not mean Trix Express. I see no reasons to cut parts away from standard 2-rail H0 models.

With regards to the 36xxx I should specify that I was thinking about the TRAXX, ER 20 and the Vectron classes specifically.
Offline mrmarklin  
#74 Posted : 07 February 2017 20:10:59(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 889
Location: Burney, CA
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post

And the European qualitative difference both two and three rail is still significant.


What is by Trix? I did not test it, but I think it is the same quality as Maerklin. For me it looks like that Maerklin will make Trix more and more to the "2 rail Maerklin system". Because all items offered by Maerklin gets more and more offered by Trix in 2 rail technique with DCC instead Maerklins mfx+.

I bought rolling material from Trix and I see no difference to Maerklin, except design, like color, etc. But this was the reason, I bought Trix. BigGrin


I meant the qualitative difference between American HO and European HO, both two and three rail in Europe's case.Mellow
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
Offline Minok  
#75 Posted : 07 February 2017 21:36:27(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,309
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Terminology differences. Each rail is a conductor and the center pickups is another conductor - hence 3 conductor.
Let's talk about M track. Where is the third conductor? Or is it four-conductor as we have a metal track bed?



I don't have M track and only know its metal body, has center conductor (and roadbed) with several (3?) variations.

The center pickup (the thing the loc's shoe rides on) is conductor 1.
One rail is conductor 2.
Other rail is conductor 3.

Now if the two rails are not electrically isolated in the track - say they all connect electrically via the metal roadbed or something, then I would classify it as 2 conductor (center and rails), but I get your point - that would be a 2 conductor solution that would not have an issues with a loop-back.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Karl Gunnar Sjöqvist  
#76 Posted : 07 February 2017 22:49:27(UTC)
Karl Gunnar Sjöqvist


Joined: 07/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Terminology differences. Each rail is a conductor and the center pickups is another conductor - hence 3 conductor.
Let's talk about M track. Where is the third conductor? Or is it four-conductor as we have a metal track bed?


It's not 3-conductor, but 3-rail! Two rails are as on almost every railroad the ones that the wheels roll on. The third rail is in the center. In M-track the metal railbed is also connecting the 2 outer rails electrically - so it is a 2-conductor track if you use that expression...
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Offline ixldoc  
#77 Posted : 07 February 2017 23:01:36(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Brisbane,Australia
Isn't semantics wonderful!
Howard.
Offline midwestbls  
#78 Posted : 08 February 2017 01:27:47(UTC)
midwestbls

United States   
Joined: 04/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
It may be handy, but all you need to do is add more straight tracks and the train comes back.


That's the answer to a reverse loop.

Am I missing something? Confused


Nope, but the tunnels under the oceans are expensive.
ETE - Swiss Era III - BLS - Brig Station
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DV
Offline H0  
#79 Posted : 08 February 2017 08:26:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,245
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Now if the two rails are not electrically isolated in the track - say they all connect electrically via the metal roadbed or something, then I would classify it as 2 conductor (center and rails), but I get your point - that would be a 2 conductor solution that would not have an issues with a loop-back.
I prefer the term "three-rail".
Saying that M track is mostly "two-conductor" while K track is mostly "three-conductor" makes things unnecessarily complicated IMHO.
Coming out of the controllers we have two conductors (red and brown).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline RayF  
#80 Posted : 08 February 2017 08:53:54(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,836
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I agree with Tom's assessment. The number of conductors remains two (Unless we are talking about the Trix-twin system with separate feeds on each rail and a common third rail). This discussion has become more complicated than it needs to be!

Critics of the 3 rail system should be aware that real life electric trains are (I believe) always 3 rail. The third rail is very often the catenary wire, but in many networks there is a physical rail to provide the power. This rail is very often on the outside of the running rails, but it can sometimes be found in the centre, such as on the London Underground. I can't think of any real system that provides the power through isolated running rails as in 2 rail model railways, though I'm sure that someone will prove me wrong! BigGrin

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline foumaro  
#81 Posted : 08 February 2017 08:54:24(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Maybe i am missing something,i am trying to understand the meaning of this topic,but i can't.Blink Woot
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Offline RayF  
#82 Posted : 08 February 2017 09:13:07(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,836
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Maybe i am missing something,i am trying to understand the meaning of this topic,but i can't.Blink Woot


It's very simple. There are many railway modellers who don't like the three rail system and wish that it would go away. They consider the look of the third rail or the studs to be unrealistic.

Most of these also firmly believe that there should only be one digital system and that this should be the NMRA DCC standard. It look like currently these "lobbyists" are getting their way on the DCC front, as Marklin has finally been persuaded to include the DCC functionality in their controllers and now also in their locomotive decoders.

There is also the issue of wheel standards, but that is a matter for another discussion...
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline foumaro  
#83 Posted : 08 February 2017 09:31:19(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,420
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
I prefer three rail system but i do not care if others prefer two rail,one rail or hundred rail.There are a lot of systems,anyone can choose the system he prefers.And everybody is huppy.BigGrin
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Offline TrainIride  
#84 Posted : 08 February 2017 09:49:13(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,890
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
I prefer three rail system but i do not care if others prefer two rail,one rail or hundred rail.There are a lot of systems,anyone can choose the system he prefers.And everybody is huppy.BigGrin


I totally agree !

Regardless of the rails number , the important thing is not to have a one track mind ! BigGrin

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Offline hxmiesa  
#85 Posted : 08 February 2017 13:20:04(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,518
Location: Spain
Well, I think that it is obvios that 3-rail still exist because of two main reasons;
1) The existing user-base, built up over several generations.
2) Märklins "grip" on said user-base, deliberatly separating them from the 2-rail world. -Making it easier to (almost) monopolize the sales and conjtrol the market.

Personally I like the slightly increased security in conductivity. (3 conductors are still 50% more cables than 2 conductors)
I like that I can use track-detection and trigger electrical events just by isolating one of the rails, and let the wheels do the signalling.
The already mentioned easier way to make complex track-circuits involving return-loops. -Even for more complex situations than just the simple isolated loop.

If you wanted to start a modelling railroad company TODAY, you wouldnt even CONSIDER doing 3-rail, unless there already was an established user-base for it. If Märklin hadnt existed, and none of the many other (now dead) 3-rail companies had existed ever, you certainly wouldnt be producing 3-rail. Actually I think that is so obvious that any attempt to answer it is redundant ;-)
Now, as it is, Märklin is (probably, I dont know about Lionel or others) the only existing 3-rail company that still lives on. Almost a hundred years ago, half of the manufactores used some kind of third rail. Also for DC-running. There were even a quite popular N-scale 3-rail system!
If you start up ANY new railroad modelling company today, you would do well in catering to both 2- and 3-rail segments, thanks to the huge established user-bases in both camps. So the 3-rail system is probably not about to go exstinct any time soon...
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline Minok  
#86 Posted : 08 February 2017 22:13:27(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,309
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
Maybe i am missing something,i am trying to understand the meaning of this topic,but i can't.Blink Woot


It's very simple. There are many railway modellers who don't like the three rail system and wish that it would go away. They consider the look of the third rail or the studs to be unrealistic.



I don't feel that would be a reasonable position for anyone to be in; its akin to you not liking my choice of wallpaper. What effect does it have on the DCC user base if someone wants to run Märklin 3-conductor solutions?

Warning, I'm going down a rabbit hole here... if you want to stay on track stop reading now.

Yes, in general, it would be better for us the consumers, if the world were unified around one standard in a small subset of sizes, but that isn't and won't likely be the case. There are rail gauge standards, but even within that group there are varying standards on the rail height and wheel shape. That's why running H0 scale trams on tram style rails produced in the US and other places is such a pain - Code 100 vs Code 83 vs... There are standards on coupler pockets at least, but the buffers are not standardized so we still have problems with cars into connecting up well and running between some manufacturers.

So we have a gauge - the space between the rails, that is standardized, but then the rolling stock that is on those varies in size as well. So Germany is different than Britain than the US, etc. If there was a smaller variation within the vehicle and rail scales the manufactures could produce to a smaller target set and consumers would have more choices for their chosen gauge/scale. But thats not changing I suspect.

Unrealistic? Again, why is someone so concerned about my wallpaper choice. Don't use it. The entire hobby is a selection of unrealistic elements - we individuals choose to focus our system on those aspects that are most important to us. One person may not like the pukos in Märklin track. I find the rail joiners and solder joints much more distracting looking. There are the rivet counters, who we will never satisfy, but I choose to tune them out. I like my Aral tanker car because its the brand of gas station I recall visiting with my grandfather to get gas in the 1970's in central Germany. I could care one iota about whether the car matches the form of railing or undercarriage of cars of that era.

I'd be happy if I could not have to think about compatibility and running issues between rolling stock from maker A vs maker B vs rail C, well before I think about how the signal is picked up from the track or the digital signalling system.

OK, I'll get off the soap box now. I do feel a bit better, thanks for asking.BigGrin
I should shut up and get to actually building my layout.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Jabez  
#87 Posted : 11 February 2017 02:01:46(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 636
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post

I am not acting as an agent provocateur, or trying to be antagonistic.


Stop, stop, stop. I never wrote or suggested this.


A belated reply, but I just want to assure you that my above exonerating declaration was not aimed at you or anything you wrote, it was a general assurance to all that my question was genuine and not an attempt at shit stirring or starting 'wars of religion' the term that your Modelbau-Wiki link uses to describe heated arguments about MRR systems.
Thanks for that link, and the others, very interesting and useful.
What I have got out of this discussion is pretty much what I thought at the beginning. There are no obviously killer advantages on either side and the Maerklin system's basic assurance of survival, even though it is a minority system worldwide, is the very large base of users, of which I am one, convinced of its reliability and quality who have chosen it over others.
I think Hxmiesa's post above puts it well.
Jabez
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline baggio  
#88 Posted : 11 February 2017 04:04:10(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
So the 3-rail system is probably not about to go exstinct any time soon...


I certainly hope so. I spent a fortune on Marklin trains! LOL
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Offline Goofy  
#89 Posted : 12 February 2017 09:28:18(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,957
There is some difference between two and three rail system.
TS did stand an question about why Märklin still produce three rail.
It´s just because Märklinist like three rail more than two rail. BigGrin
Märklinist are lazy too and means too much work with some few extra work by connect wires to the two rail. BigGrin
Ya ya ya
I like more two rail better than three rail,just because it´s more easier to build up layout and simulate prototype.
In fact did i had Märklin layout and did tested by found out K tracks rust and oxid.
It´s all taste of like and sure Märklinist are stuck with the three rail system while i found out two rail more interesting.
So long there is folk still interesting in three rail,Märklin still produce like other competitors.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#90 Posted : 12 February 2017 12:38:04(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I like more two rail better than three rail,just because it´s more easier to build up layout and simulate prototype.
In fact did i had Märklin layout and did tested by found out K tracks rust and oxid.
It´s all taste of like and sure Märklinist are stuck with the three rail system while i found out two rail more interesting.

I often wonder what your interest in this forum is. Confused

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Offline Goofy  
#91 Posted : 12 February 2017 16:20:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,957
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I like more two rail better than three rail,just because it´s more easier to build up layout and simulate prototype.
In fact did i had Märklin layout and did tested by found out K tracks rust and oxid.
It´s all taste of like and sure Märklinist are stuck with the three rail system while i found out two rail more interesting.

I often wonder what your interest in this forum is. Confused



Trix
Märklin support and produce two rail too.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Purellum  
#92 Posted : 12 February 2017 17:44:46(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,495
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Goofy, how many times have you changed from 2-rail to 3-rail and back ??

Reading your old posts, and your reasons for changing is quite funny:

One of the times from 2-rail to 3-rail:

https://www.marklin-user...orum/posts/t5146-Im-back

"So this time it will been Marklin forever."

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline petestra  
#93 Posted : 12 February 2017 19:22:19(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
There is some difference between two and three rail system.
TS did stand an question about why Märklin still produce three rail.
It´s just because Märklinist like three rail more than two rail. BigGrin
Märklinist are lazy too and means too much work with some few extra work by connect wires to the two rail. BigGrin
Ya ya ya
I like more two rail better than three rail,just because it´s more easier to build up layout and simulate prototype.
In fact did i had Märklin layout and did tested by found out K tracks rust and oxid.
It´s all taste of like and sure Märklinist are stuck with the three rail system while i found out two rail more interesting.
So long there is folk still interesting in three rail,Märklin still produce like other competitors.


I thought this was the Märklin users-net? Why are you here? PeterConfused
Offline H0  
#94 Posted : 12 February 2017 19:52:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,245
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
I thought this was the Märklin users-net?
Trix is a brand of Märklin. LGB is a brand of Märklin.

IMHO anybody who uses anything from the Märklin company qualifies for the forum.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#95 Posted : 12 February 2017 19:53:29(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,657
Location: New Zealand
It's like an old girlfriend which Goofy can't quite get over...
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Offline seatrains  
#96 Posted : 12 February 2017 20:19:01(UTC)
seatrains

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: Shoreline, WA
In our household between my son and I, we have N, HO and G with two rail DC, S with two rail AC, HO (mostly marklin) and O (mostly lionel) with 3 rail AC. Laugh

That being said I saw a post on a blog about Brawa HO loks being set up to run both on AC and DC. Does anyone have experience with this?
http://blog.lostentry.or...215-117-3-esu-31018.html

Also a topic at local NMRA group that was brought up was running HO scale with RC control. Does anyone have experience with this?
http://www.s-cab.com/
Seems like either concept could change the hobby?
Thom
European Train Enthusiast - Pacific Northwest Chapter
4th Division, Pacific Northwest Region, National Model Railroaders Association
Offline Goofy  
#97 Posted : 12 February 2017 20:28:05(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,957
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Goofy, how many times have you changed from 2-rail to 3-rail and back ??

Reading your old posts, and your reasons for changing is quite funny:

One of the times from 2-rail to 3-rail:

https://www.marklin-user...orum/posts/t5146-Im-back

"So this time it will been Marklin forever."

Per.

Cool


My mistake to try Märklin which was stupid.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#98 Posted : 12 February 2017 20:31:55(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,957
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
It's like an old girlfriend which Goofy can't quite get over...


Confused
This sentence was totally unnecessary!

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline baggio  
#99 Posted : 12 February 2017 20:37:54(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
This sentence was totally unnecessary!


I am sure no offence was intended, Goofy, just a bit of fun.BigGrin

In any event, why don't you have BOTH systems, that's what I do.

(When I was young I liked the idea of having two girlfriends at the same time, always handy to have a back up girlfriend. Wink )
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Offline Purellum  
#100 Posted : 12 February 2017 20:43:08(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,495
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post


My mistake to try Märklin which was stupid.



But according to yourself, you're still running Märklin.

And you didn't answer my question; how many times have you changed from 2-rail to 3-rail and back ??

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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