Tom has this to say:

Happy customer of Roco, Piko, Fleischmann, ESU, Brawa, Liliput, Rivarossi, Lima, ... - and will happily continue to buy locos that run well out of the box. I'm also happy with 95% of my Märklin items, but will avoid a few cost-optimized items made 2011 or later.

and the late part of his likes explains, will avoid ...... Märklin items made later than 2011.
Now this is interesting because I'm pretty sure I've done the same thing but I can't remember why, may be the mfx issue but I think they came out before that.
to put it into a nutshell it was obvious with me, mfx wasn't a thing for me (closed protocol) to some considerable degree the design detail of a loco has increased (for the good) but again the different motor type has taken its toll by going forwards and backwards,
All I'm saying are there any issues with current sound decoders and are they programmable ?
the only issue I have with Roco is they've changed the supplier for their decoders and now using Uhlenbrock and Zimo sound decoders which again are not compatible to program with an ESU system (sound slots) and Zimo is producing their own sound decoders, e.g. Rh 1010, Rh 1110, Rh 4010, Rh 1043, Rh 1040, Rh 1070 and more.

John

I am no fan of MFX either, but that is a choice based on preferences. What truly pisses me off is they have DCC already in their decoders and chose to block it. It would be nice to have that option and the option of turning off MFX. But alas, this is yet another case of "Our way or the highway". This attitude dates back several decades. I never expect them to change.

I too have stopped buying lokos. I am only getting one this year and it is because I have wanted one for years- a second generation Be 6/8. I have always wanted one with the extra counterbalance arm swinging around. I skipped the two loko set because the brown was not my era and I wanted one that represented the majority of the rebuilds-one set of doors welded shut. It will get a LokSnd V4 installed immediately after I confirm it works okay. So no three pole motor issues for me, it will have a good decoder.

I've found that DC wheels from Roco, Fleischmann, and Trix work fine on Märklin C track.
With Piko cars I normally install the appropriate AC wheel sets from Piko.
Minimum radius for me is C track R2. Some third party rolling stock is not compatible with C track R1.

It's a well-known fact that Märklin couplers do not work with scale models from other brands. The Roco Universal coupler is a good replacement between loco and first car (I also use it for all freight cars that come without suitable short coupler).
Between passenger coaches I normally use Roco Short couplers.
IMHO it's great that NEM coupler pockets allow to use rolling stock from many different brands.

I spent hours treating my Märklin Ommi freight cars with a small knife and a key file to get them run freely as they should. Märklin said it was a design flaw, but their locos were strong enough.

I've added wires to Märklin items to save the return trip to the company. They did it again with the Re 4/4 II recently.
I installed parts they didn't install at the factory or even disassembled Märklin locos to remove grates and assemble them properly or the right way around.

I had a few locos go back because the decoders were not programmed properly. We know that every Märklin loco gets a test run at the factory. At that day they must have had a deaf person do the sound checks (the sound project had been partially loaded only and the loco sound was stuttering).

Other locos had to go back because the wheels were not properly quartered.

All these problems so far were unique to Märklin in my experience.

I had a few Märklin items go back with dead decoder, dead speaker, dead LEDs and such. Not unusual, also happens with other brands.

All my locos with Compact C Sine had to go back: electronics had a design flaw.

So all in all in my experience Märklin items have a rather high return rate because out of the box they often do not work as expected.
It's so very dissatisfying to know that you cannot take a single word from the product description for granted. Missing flywheels, yellow LEDs while warmwhite LEDs were advertised, ...

Mike's buyer's experience with the SBB Lion loco was not fully satisfying yet, Jonas' Dm3 special series appears to be incorrectly assembled.

I'm sorry to say that my trust in Märklin is impaired. Smart German engineering, but a language barrier between engineers and assembly staff and a QA/QC problem.

Ray, my point was and when I read Toms avatar conclusion I thought I add my bit to it and I just wanted to know what other defects or other reasons members or Märklin fans had not buy any more locos after 2011.
I'm not talking about members., like you, which have been satisfied with all Märklin gear, I was curious why members have stopped buying stuff from 2011 onwards. Matt for instance pointed out mfx and as Tom explained the unfortunate experiences he had with his purchases and my own conclusion about mfx.
Interesting to know that sounds or decoders with updates have to go back to Germany but I assume this would depend on whether the decoder in question can be safely separated from the circuit board like a 21 pin decoder.
I also combine these above facts with the possibility of returning or having to return locos and the cost involved. so its the uncertainty about the state of a loco may it be the design, design fault, dead decoder or any other misfortune the question has to be asked how much is this loco costing me in case of any fault.
One could also assume the amount of stock is sold by Märklin what percentage is being returned and are they one off occurrences.

it is fair to say, buying anything today has its risks and this is not just in the model train area but many other items offered for sale.it may be a good and save idea to wait what other model train enthusiasts think or report about a loco regardless who is the manufacturer and therefore limiting the risk of finishing up with a dud.

John

Ray in a sense it is but the key point was not buying Märklin locos from 2011 onwards. I myself haven't had any issues with Märklin locos because I haven't bought any and the ones I have bought had been reproductions of older moulds such as the DB BR 194 class.

John

Ray,

suppose it would be a major factor of buying newer locos with new tooling and even better details and i must say it took Märklin a while to wake up there are hooks and hoses at the front of a loco and not just imitations, besides this, a complete look through of a steam loco frame is now possible and saw the other day even the inside cylinder was recreated and I'm sure the 5 pole motor had been an issue as well as I found out today (different topic) under digital. one would have thought a 5 pole motor is the answer but I'm slowly having doubts about them and it would be a disaster if I have to change them all because of their mix match performance, I hope not, if I don't get satisfactory results I may try to add ball bearings to the internal cogwheels as well.

John

You can look at it that way, from a non Marklin-users point of view, or from a Marklin-users point of view. There are two standards. You choose the one you like, but all those who insist on the standards developed for 2 rail DC should stick to DC, in my opinion, and leave Marklin alone.

No wait! You want the best of both worlds? Then you have to acknowledge there are differences between Marklin/3 rail/AC and everybody else.


This deleted post was restored by moderator.
Please don't delete posts because this disturbs the 'flow' of the forum.

Edited by moderator 12 April 2014 19:08:31(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hi,

I have only a few locos that are from the year 2011 or newer and no problem with mfx in these as they work ok. I have found out that Märklin used different wheels in their older locos and rolling stock before and they sometimes do short circuits on my outer main line wide radius turnouts. No problem with normal turnouts. We have discussed from this subject with my Finnish Märklin dealer and he confirmed me about this issue with old Märklin wheels (from the time before C-track). Roco wheels are good with Märklin C-track and there are no problems with them.

I have to stop buying locos too as there really are enough now. I will just quit using eBay for a while after I have finished all the newest purchases. When not using eBay there are no temptations and the main thing even when using eBay is to not put many items in the "watch list" as otherwise there are too many temptations. I will just enjoy from the items that I have now. Many models I have dreamed of for around 10 years have been bought recently like 37450 BR 45, 37605 VT 11.5 and 39821 V 200.1. Better for my wallet also to have a break .

Cheers,
Janne

Hi,
I don't usually say too much on this forum, and I certainly don't usually "spill my guts" as we say in Australia.

Anyway, to get down to tin-tacks, two (2) of my Insider models failed this week for some reason.
One is still under warranty, and the other is well out of it. Both are MFX.
Neither of them respond correctly to my 60212 controller, although I get different responses.
One races off uncontrollably, the other just issues the standard chuff sounds but does not move.

Anyway, to prove a point, here is my positive attitude to the Marklin brand.

1. I phoned Marklin service, explained the problem, and he suggested I place both locos separately, on another controller, and see if there is a different response. Which I did, no luck there, as the MFX did not register.
My point? What other toy or model manufacturer in the world, has this free and open capability to respond first hand to their customers, direct at the factory?
Not even Mercedes Benz does that.

2. I will pack both locos off to Marklin service in the post, that will cost me very little in relation to my overall hobby expenses.

3. One loco will cost me nothing for repairs (under warranty), the other will cost me probably less than 100 Euros. To my way of thinking, that is good value. Both locos have had about 10 hours of use, so I have had my fun with them anyway.

4. Considering I have about 30 Marklin locos, it is a small proportion. I have had failures in other 2 rail brands over the last 10 years, some like 100% (2 out of 2). A local model train retailer (doesn't sell Marklin) was telling me today that some of the quality control from products made elsewhere, is currently as bad as he has ever seen.

5. I have one other 3 rail digital loco made by Liliput. It is a lovely runner, but there is one slight incompatability with my Marklin C track wide radius turnouts, which I can avoid.

6. Most of my other models are 2 rail DC or DCC of various brands. Some I appreciate in terms of value for cost, some I certainly don't. I seem to have a consistent liking for all of my Marklin products.

7. Considering the number of parts in a modern Marklin loco (over 300) compared to my 1940s Hornby Dublo (about 22 parts, like early Marklin I guess), I can appreciate the failure rates will be completely disparate.

regards
Kimball

Edited by user 11 April 2014 23:32:38(UTC)  | Reason: Added Point #7.

Yes, thanks Miguel, I had not thought of that. They are both still registered on my 60212, so I will see if I can do that.
Although, I have my doubts, as neither was responding.

Anyway, my wife has just made a new batch of scones, and that is eminently more important to me.
The engines can wait for a few days!

regards
Kimball

My topic wasn't intended to dick into any manufacturer or spill my gut over a purchase, nor was my intention to open up a battlefield just a topic to hear reasons or experiences someone had, not for or against Märklin, we all have a choice of point of view and you choose the one you like whether it is 2 or 3 rail whether is mfx or analog.

being curious doesn't mean the answers member write about it, if any, some choices can be married with Märklin and other manufacturers, such as a Roco silent slider (recommendable for C-track) an ESU M4 decoder (open protocol) and if it is just Tom and myself, so be it, I'm not trying to prove who is right or wrong, who is guilty or not guilty and we all set standards from our own interpretation what we perceive as good value and design.
If you ask me which manufacturer would I choose when it comes to steam locos and my answer is Märklin, why, because I would have to buy 2 locos from Roco or Liliput to get the same performance to carry x amount of carriages.

another choice and conversion I've made with Märklin steam locos (plastic housing) to insert a smoke generator from Seuthe, Märklin doesn't produce them, If I convert a motor with ball bearing, Märklin doesn't produce one, if I add a telex coupling (or similar) to a Märklin loco with out one (Roco electrical coupling) I like to improve it for my own satisfaction, there is no mention from me as a non Marklin-users point of view, or from a Marklin-users point of view or from a Märklin or none Märklin enthusiast.
My interest lies in model trains and layouts and it happen to be I grew up with Märklin and while growing up I've learned other things beside Märklin and Juhan has given us the opportunity to share our likes and dislikes experiences from time to time

John

Maybe this will get Marklin's attention.



The picture above is the MFX decoders I have replaced so I can run my lokos with DCC. All but eight were replaced with ESU LokSnd V4s at a cost of $130 US each. The other eight were no sound lokos like the 30210 that got replaced with LoPi V4 decoders. This by the way is not all of them. At some point I started to just throw them in a box and not put them back in the individual loko boxes. The image above represents real dollars spent, not some pie in the sky "If I had this money I would do...", but an actual outlay of money. More than $6000 US in expenditures is shown. I am not the only one who replaces MFX decoders so we can run Marklin lokos in DCC. This is money that could have been spent on Marklin products and not ESU decoders. All Marklin have to do is unlock the DCC format that already exists in their decoders and I would have sent the money their way and not ESU's. The sad bit is it would cost Marklin nothing to earn this money, like I said above, the format already exists in their decoders. The model railroad market is shrinking with each passing day us old guys get older. The kids today have very little, if any interest in this hobby. Why in a shrinking market you would let money that would have landed in your pocket go just so you can control the digital format used to operate your lokos makes no sense to me. Free money that they apparently neither want nor need. People expect choices today. Limit their choices and they will start to look elsewhere. Control freaks, what they do not understand is the tighter they try to hold us, the more we slip through their fingers.

I can't imagine there will be many people who will spend that much money just to change from one digital standard to another one. Why don't you just go with another manufacturer and stick to 2 rail?

Still, it's your money....


This deleted post was restored by moderator.
Please don't delete posts because this disturbs the 'flow' of the forum.

Edited by moderator 12 April 2014 19:10:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Both were replies I expected and what happens when two parties do not understand the motivations of each other. None the less, Marklin must not want my money. I thought the desire to have money was universal. Especially with a manufacturer who has stockholders to answer to. I must be wrong.

And the last word goes to...Ray.

Ray wrote: so it's not hard to understand that they don't want to promote a rival system.

Yes Märklin did, under their brand they've produced a digital system, the motorola system and yes Märklin introduced ESU decoders into their locos including MFX until the day came when they've decided to take ESU to court but it never eventuated and if I remember right they were using a well known and state of the art electronic firm to help them with their new digital system or is this still in the pipeline.

How were the scones? I wouldn't mind one myself!

Hi Ray,
if you are ever near Brisbane, Australia, please give me a call and you can try some.

My wife is an inveterate explorer of all things cuisine, so each week tries a new scone recipe.

Tonight, she used the tried and true recipe with sour cream instead of milk. The scones are delicious, and I helped myself to at least 3 (maybe more, but I'm not telling).

regards
Kimball

I am sorry to see Ray delete his posts from this thread. Once you put forth an idea or opinion people, you invite discussion, pro and con.

I deleted my posts because the thread "owner" asked me by PM to keep out of "his" thread.

PLEASE DO NOT RECOVER AND RESTORE THE DELETED POSTINGS>

Hi Ray,

Marklin-users is an open forum, intended to share the fun of Marklin and model railroads and such.
It is totally absurd if one member asks another member to stay out of 'his' thread.

I have already restored the deleted posts because they disturbs the flow and readability of the thread.
I'm certainly not going to deleted them again, because someone have said you're not welcome in his thread.
And please do not delete them again yourself.

Marco

Huh? Nothing at all! If somebody asked me to butt out, I would be so damned that I´d write another message right away. -Just to prove my point! ;-)
Anyway... this posting is totally off-topic, and I´ll accept moderation, -but only by the appropriate authorities!

HI All,

I too am a fan of the MFX system, the reason we are were we are with it is because our much praised ESU were/are a bunch of crooks basically, and originally, delivered Marklin a cripled version of the CS1.
The Marklin management of the day were held to account for what was probably a very loose set of specifications for the CS1
Then using the huge some of money Marklin probably paid them, they developed the Ecos alonside and produced it with all the features the CS1 should have come with in the first place.
They then went on to charge us CS1-R owners a not inconsiderable sum to upgrade our CS1's to were the Ecos was.
You cannot blame M for creating a new controller and subsequently another form of MFX decoders
I can and do blame them tho, for giving us cheap three pole can motors that in some examples of some models, do not perform as nicely and smootly as we came to expect after the SDS powered units.

Funds permitting I will try a CS2 for it's MFX+. I have ordered the Insidser E93, and may be I'll go for the 39008 '01 as it could fill a place in my roster as well as the facination of it's functions with MFX+
Apart from that, I'm reluctant to spend my hard earned on possibly indifferent performing Loks with three pole motors, and will fill out my collection with SDS models, the non sound examples where possible so I can fit a V4M4 ESU decoder.