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Offline frankNL  
#1 Posted : 19 November 2011 12:47:00(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Hello !
We are from the Netherlands and we are interested to learn everything about the Marklin LNER R 700 with tender from 1937 or 1938/1939. Grandfather is the proud owner of an original example with which he has played as a child.
His intention is to give his grandson a great start in this spectaculair trainworld-hobby.
So we opened a topic on the dutch internetforum 3railforum.nl the special topic is to be seen at this link:

http://forum.3rail.nl/index.php?topic=32930.0#bott
Here you will find also some photographs.
We would like to get in contact with interested collectors.

Looking forward to your reply,
Greetings from Holland
Frank


Online cookee_nz  
#2 Posted : 19 November 2011 14:12:45(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: frankNL Go to Quoted Post
Hello !
We are from the Netherlands and we are interested to learn everything about the Marklin LNER R 700 with tender from 1937 or 1938/1939. Grandfather is the proud owner of an original example with which he has played as a child.
His intention is to give his grandson a great start in this spectaculair trainworld-hobby.
So we opened a topic on the dutch internetforum 3railforum.nl the special topic is to be seen at this link:

http://forum.3rail.nl/index.php?topic=32930.0#bott
Here you will find also some photographs.
We would like to get in contact with interested collectors.

Looking forward to your reply,
Greetings from Holland
Frank




Wow Frank (and welcome), that is indeed a beautiful and very rare item.

How 'gentle' is your Son?, this is an item which while it is relatively solid for its time, it is also over 70 years old and clearly has been well cared for from new, but it would not tolerate much in the way of rough handling before its present pristine (and valuable) condition would quickly suffer.

With original boxes, and a proven 'provenance' makes it all the more desirable.

If it holds no particular value for your Dad (or your wife's Dad), then it is probably not an ideal 'toy' for a child. You would be better selling it at auction and putting some of that money into a new set, and use the left-over to pay off your mortgage!! Seriously, I would not be surprised if you should get some considerable money for that item (possibly thousands of Euro's).

On the other hand, if your Son were to develop a real passion for Marklin, and he stayed with the hobby into his adult years, if he then learned that he had the chance to own one of these and it was taken from him, well it might just bring a tear to his eye. With that in mind, if it were held 'in trust' for him for a more mature age, it will acquire value far beyond any $. I am sure there are many of us here that would be thrilled to own an old Marklin item previously owned and played with by our own Grandfather - that is a rare honour indeed. I have one of my Father's Engines, and it will never be sold by me - even if none of my children or grandchildren have an interest in model trains as such, it would not take up much space on a display shelf.

If there is no actual need to sell the train, I would hold on to it - the value is only going to go one way - UP!

Perhaps spend 200 Euro to buy your Son a shiny new Marklin set and see how he respects it, how long it holds his interest etc. If he really enjoys the hobby, the LNER can be brought out for special occasions for a short excursion (Xmas time etc).

Of course you should really take it across the channel and run it in its 'home' country BigGrin

But, at the end of the day, it was originally purchased as a toy, and at the time it was around 8 Marks, the same price as the standard R700 and the LMS version 700.

His Grandfather enjoyed it as a child and he clearly took care of it so who is to say that your Son cannot also play with it, and look after it just as carefully. Money is not everything.

Of course, that is easy for me to say, I don't have it.

I look forward to the comments of others on this forum, there are some with a much better idea of current value.

Good luck with it.

Regards

Steve
Melbourne
Australia
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
Offline frankNL  
#3 Posted : 19 November 2011 14:41:40(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Hello Steve,
Wow, All the way to Australia, Grandfather will enjoy this very much!
In Holland we were also advised to seek contact with an Auction House.
This is a complete new world for us, so we start with collect a lot of information at first.
You have got a very good point in saying that maybe as an adult the value for our son would get far beyond any dream. We think that at the moment the value is already sky high!
We are looking for a very serious collector, who offers a reasonable price and by whom the train will really be taken good care of.
We hope our search comes to a very good end.
Regards from the other side of the globe!
Frank
Offline Webmaster  
#4 Posted : 19 November 2011 18:42:23(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#5 Posted : 19 November 2011 18:57:32(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,590
Hello,

Welcome to the forum and you certainly have started off with a very nice train. Unfortunately many collectors and enthusiasts are often "fooled by the book." The KOLL book, other price guides, and even auction house appraisals are usually far off from the actual market values (sometimes they are two or three times too low or too high).

The most important thing is that your locomotive is 100% original and not a repaint or a fake. The packaging materials for the other items suggest that it is from around 1940, but KOLL argues that it is from 1938. I would think it is from more in the time of 1939/1940 because of how the paint looks slightly orange on the frame. The ones from the earlier years have a more dark red coloring. With the British livery locomotives, the dating can be quite difficult. I have even seen British livery locomotives that have couplers which did not even exist in full production at the time. There are many different versions with all different kinds of stamps which are not even addressed in KOLL.

As for the evaluation, 5000 EUR is, probably as you know by now, too high, but it is a nice place to start. I have seen these sell on eBay.de from between 1400 EUR and 5900 EUR. The true price exists somewhere in between. If you would like detailed pricing info, let me know. I have about 20 auction results / eBay results for this locomotive all with varying prices.

With regard to the possibility of selling the locomotive, it is entirely up to you, but here are my observations. On eBay.de there are simply too many fakes. In the past several years I have seen probably 2-3 British livery trains which were actually original and not messed with in some way or completely fake. Surprisingly the fakes sometimes get even more interest. A similar model to yours as a reproduction (repainted) recently sold for almost 2000 EUR while an original could be acquired for just a little bit more and yet on eBay.de right now there is an R700LNER for Buy-It-Now which has received almost no attention (except for one offer made on it that was declined -- which was from me!). The auction houses are a little bit better in this field and might be a little more enjoyable (despite the fees). I would stay away from any auction house which charges an appraisal fee or a commission of over 15%. There is, however, a whole new strategy with auction houses which can be quite difficult and rather risky (you might end up selling the locomotive for much less than you want).

That being said, the British livery locos and trains from Marklin are my absolute favorite, so my first advice to you is to keep the locomotive. Put it in a display case for the grandson to view and carefully run it around the track on special occasions for him to admire. One day he will realize the value of the locomotive and probably sell it himself! BigGrin (which has its benefits too).

Best regards,

Paul
Offline drstapes  
#6 Posted : 19 November 2011 19:13:51(UTC)
drstapes

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 764
Location: Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk
FrankNL,

What a lovely engine to own. It looks pristine in its box. I agree with others,it is far to valuable to let small Grandchildren play with it. Keep it on display in a safe place, it will only go up in value. If you must sell it take to a specialist Auction house. Personally I would keep it as an heirloom.
Regards

Geoff (UK)

marklin HO from the 50's and 60's
Offline frankNL  
#7 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:10:56(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Ok here are a few photos from the engine and waggons
frankNL attached the following image(s):
opas loc en wagons1.jpg
Offline frankNL  
#8 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:14:24(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
and another
frankNL attached the following image(s):
opas loc en wagons 6.jpg
Offline frankNL  
#9 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:16:25(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
and yet another
frankNL attached the following image(s):
opas loc en wagons 5.jpg
Offline frankNL  
#10 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:19:54(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
and the last one for now
frankNL attached the following image(s):
opas loc en wagons4.jpg
opasloc en wagons3.jpg
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#11 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:20:36(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,590
Hello again Marklin friends,

I am sorry I think I have been too rash in saying that the locomotive is "100% original" before seeing all the photos and looking carefully. I have noticed two additional things: the tender is actually for an SLR 700/800 LNER and not the R 700 LNER (note the red strip versus the gold stripe). This changes all my dating analysis because the pieces are from different years. So anywhere from 1937 - 1940. I cannot say whether the side frame (orange paint) is original or not without inspection, but since it does not quite match the red buffer paint, I would suspect repainting.

Regards,

Paul
Offline Webmaster  
#12 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:21:55(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
Looks like a lovely specimen... Only very minor "wear&tear" as seen by the pics so far... Would surely bring some cash if sold... BigGrin

The wagons seem to be in great shape too...

I am not an expert, so I think we will have to rely upon what Paul says...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline Webmaster  
#13 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:29:15(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
Paul, since this is a "childhood set" within the family, is it possible that M used what they had in stock to produce this model in about 1940? Thinking of the tender deviation here...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#14 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:36:19(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,590
Hi Juhan,

It is certainly a possibility...I was thinking what might have happened too. The wagons are telling me the story of 1937/1938 (possibly up to 1940) and some of the boxes I saw were from 1940. Since British versions were produced in such small quantities anyway, I suppose it is possible that Marklin matched an SLR tender for the R 700. It is more likely, however, that the dealer in the Netherlands made this switch. It is possible that all the items were bought in 1940 and the dealer had leftover stock (perhaps British versions weren't very popular in the store?). The possibilities are endless and the British version trains have been confusing me lately...I've been seeing some really strange combinations.

Regards,

Paul
Offline Webmaster  
#15 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:41:36(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
I must say that I have not seen wagons from that era in such good condition earlier... ThumpUp

Not even on Ebay.de... Most are scruffier items that go for ridiculous prices there...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#16 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:46:10(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,590
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
I must say that I have not seen wagons from that era in such good condition earlier... ThumpUp

Not even on Ebay.de... Most are scruffier items that go for ridiculous prices there...


That is very true...usually the ones coming out of Europe and thoroughly used ...I am lucky over here in the US because most Marklin trains broke very early or the owner needed replacement parts and never got around to getting them. The trains then show up after 70-80 years in mint condition because they were never used!

Paul
Offline frankNL  
#17 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:49:13(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Thanks for all your replies!

We already know that the set of engine and waggons, given as a present for grandfathers birthday, is a composed one from new items (at the time). It was in their town not possible to buy complete sets because of the wartime. The set was given in 1940.

The waggons on the photos are the 367 Talbot, the 382 Fyffes bananas and the 342 Mitropa Speisewagen, for the other numbers please look at the dutch site I stated before.

Again thank you all!
Frank


Offline Webmaster  
#18 Posted : 19 November 2011 21:53:43(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
Frank, as you can see - you get a real international view of things here, and I hope you appreciate it.

Since this forum is global and your items are of great interest worldwide, please keep us updated with what is posted in the Netherlands forum too... Smile
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline frankNL  
#19 Posted : 19 November 2011 22:07:18(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Ofcourse we will try to translate if you don't understand what is posted on the dutch 3rail forum. When there is enough time next to your train hobby my wife offers to teach you the dutch language. It's not as difficult as you might think; we use all day....Laugh
regards
Frank
Offline Webmaster  
#20 Posted : 19 November 2011 22:13:46(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
Dutch is quite easy to read, it's almost like Swedish - mixed with a bit of German, Anglosaxian and Roman languages... Much harder to understand when spoken, though... BigGrin

What I meant was that you might get a bigger & knowledgeable audience here in case you decide to sell, need advice or such... Smile
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Online cookee_nz  
#21 Posted : 19 November 2011 22:29:36(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: CCS800KrokHunter3 Go to Quoted Post
Hello again Marklin friends,

I am sorry I think I have been too rash in saying that the locomotive is "100% original" before seeing all the photos and looking carefully. I have noticed two additional things: the tender is actually for an SLR 700/800 LNER and not the R 700 LNER (note the red strip versus the gold stripe). This changes all my dating analysis because the pieces are from different years. So anywhere from 1937 - 1940. I cannot say whether the side frame (orange paint) is original or not without inspection, but since it does not quite match the red buffer paint, I would suspect repainting.

Regards,

Paul


Frank/Paul, if I may make some more observations....

On the Dutch forum which Frank refers to and has placed some photos, I noted the two plain brown boxes. Or more specifically I noted the labels. We have...

1 x "2St 430" (2 pieces, 430)
1 x "1St 2682M/2" (1 piece, 2682M/2)

Now these are interesting in themselves, especially the 2682.

"430" are Telephone poles, "2682" is a Station Trolley and trailer with Porter and both loaded with two Milk Cartons (catalogue images below).

Personally, I find item 2682 almost as captivating as the Loco. These are EXTREMELY hard to find, complete and with original carton.

2682 was available in the 1937 catalogue but not 1938. 430 was in the 1938 catalogue but not the 1937 one. In 1937 there is a similar item "2402" but this is 25cm high, the 430 is 10 cm high which would suit H0. 25cm implies either 0 or 1 gauge. 2682 may be an 0 gauge item.

Either way, I would be paying closer attention to these items as well.

But it raises obviously the question of the label for the LNER box and of course the other items.

At this stage I can only suggest two things.

1: A FULL inventory of what there is
2: Photos of everything - the items and their boxes, particularly the labels.

We would love to see them of course, but it will also help with confirming dates and values.

I also note your comment that Grandfather (your Dad or your Grandfather?) received these as a child, and from what you says, they were played with for a bit and then put into the attic.

This being the case, if there were left undisturbed over this time, the possibility of any repainting as Paul suggests is less-likely. If the Tender and Loco do not match any documented examples, it could have been a factory or dealer error. And given that these were gifted in 1940, and we all know of the turmoil that must have been going on then, really nothing is beyond possibility.

I think if Grandfather were to state without question that these items are un-altered since new (apart from play-wear) then that needs to be accepted in good faith and the known facts altered to fit the item rather than the item questioned to fit known information (if that makes sense) BigGrin

Sometimes it is 'attic finds' just like this that introduce a new variant.

This is absolutely NO criticism of Paul, he is bang on with many observations and is highly respected here. He also has some information regarding other overlooked markings on carton labels which may narrow the items down even further - hence the request for more photo's (apart from curiosity).

Fascinating topic and thanks for sharing Frank.

Cheers

Steve (actually an N.Z. Kiwi here 'under duress' while the lovely Nadine does her overseas role)
Melbourne
cookee_nz attached the following image(s):
2682M2-1937.jpg
430-1938.jpg
2682M2.jpg
R700LNER-1937.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#22 Posted : 19 November 2011 22:49:45(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,590
Thanks for your comments, Steve. I agree with you the other items are worth looking at...an R 700 LNE box would be quite the find although I don't see one in the collection photos. The other two items 430 pole and the milk cart trolleys are nice too.

I agree that "attic finds" suggest originality, but over 70-80 years of existence lots of things could have happened to them and the paint not matching the buffer is usually a sure sign of repainting. I mention "usually" because I find it very odd that I have discovered an R 700 LMS with the same discrepancy (not to mention the paint, but also the tender)!

Yes, it has the orange side striping, red painted buffers, and even the wrong (or correct) SLR 700 LMS tender.

....

So I must change my mind again and say that your locomotive is probably original in all respects. The orange paint threw me off because I knew I remembered seeing it somewhere and so it most definitely means a later version of the British version (perhaps even 1940). I believe we have discovered yet another version which KOLL has neglected.

Paul

Edited by user 10 April 2012 05:11:43(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Bayer  
#23 Posted : 19 November 2011 22:59:59(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi,

I don't fully agree with you Paul regarding the tender. Isn't the tender for the SLR 700/800 locomotives more streamlined?
I think i have read in Mikados that the golden line actually appears on some R 700/800 LMS/LNER tenders, it is however rarely seen.

Kind regards,
Thor
Online cookee_nz  
#24 Posted : 19 November 2011 23:09:40(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: CCS800KrokHunter3 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for your comments, Steve. I agree with you the other items are worth looking at...an R 700 LNE box would be quite the find although I don't see one in the collection photos. The other two items 430 pole and the milk cart trolleys are nice too.

I agree that "attic finds" suggest originality, but over 70-80 years of existence lots of things could have happened to them and the paint not matching the buffer is usually a sure sign of repainting. I mention "usually" because I find it very odd that in my collection I have discovered an R 700 LMS with the same discrepancy (not to mention the paint, but also the tender)!

Yes, it has the orange side striping, red painted buffers, and even the wrong (or correct) SLR 700 LMS tender.

So I must change my mind again and say that your locomotive is probably original in all respects. The orange paint threw me off because I knew I remembered seeing it somewhere and so it most definitely means a later version of the British version (perhaps even 1940). I believe we have discovered yet another version which KOLL has neglected.

Paul


I also meant to make mention of the tricks that can be played by lighting and cameras, and colour variations that can occur simply from exposure to sunlight.

Some here will know that my 'other' modelling hobby passion is the FALLER AMS (Auto Motor Sport) Slotcars from the 60's & 70s'. That section of my homepage is as yet undeveloped but it's not far off.

Faller made a wide range of vehicles during their production life from 1963 until the late 70's when they dropped their own vehicles in favour of Aurora racing cars.

When you take into account all the different models, and the documented colour variants produced at the factory, there are almost 1,000 possibilties. Some of the very rare ones fetch hundreds of Euro's (for a single slot car)!.

On top of that, you have items which have been left in the sun and where the colour becomes bleached to something quite unusual, (or is sometimes done deliberately). If it is accidental, a constant exposure without movement usually alters just one side that becomes discoloured, the other side (and the inside) remains closer to the original tint.

The really serious collectors arm themselves with a Pantone / RAL Colour chart or swatches and will compare the colour of the item against a known and verified colour code. Only then do you know how close the colour is to original.

I am surprised that as yet, no one appears to have done this with Marklin, however that may also be because the variants are not so wide-ranging, and there are sufficient original examples that a serious collector quickly spots an 'off-colour' example.

The Red/Orange stripe on the Loco running board may be quite subjective depending on the original image, your monitor, your eyes - etc. BigGrin

Cheers

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#25 Posted : 19 November 2011 23:11:32(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,590
Originally Posted by: Bayer Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I don't fully agree with you Paul regarding the tender. Isn't the tender for the SLR 700/800 locomotives more streamlined?
I think i have read in Mikados that the golden line actually appears on some R 700/800 LMS/LNER tenders, it is however rarely seen.

Kind regards,
Thor


Hi Thor,

You're absolutely correct...I was referring to the red/gold striping on the tenders only. The SLR versus R tenders are very different as you have noted (especially in the coal tender area). The SLR is more streamlined whereas the R coal tender area is more "boxy"

Mikado usually is more specific / detail-oriented than KOLL so I agree with what they have to say that sometimes the gold line appears on the R series 700/800 locomotives (as in this case).

Regards,

Paul
Offline frankNL  
#26 Posted : 19 November 2011 23:35:17(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Hello everybody,

We are reading all of this with great interest!

We do know Koll catalogue, is MIKADO also a catalogue (sorry for our ignorance)?

Grandfather is the father of my wife, he is 76.
We asked him again the whole story of the train.
He has played with it for several years and than it was stored all together, with a railroadcrossing and rails in an old cardboard butter box from the local super(?)market.

We have been asked by the museum steam railway to donate this butterbox as historic storage museum material. But this ofcourse is for you not so interesting.

What Grandfather also told us is that this box was taken with him when he married Grandmother and when they bought their house it was placed in the attic. This was in the early 60-s. and it remained in the butterbox in a cupboard until the first week of november 2011.

Grandfather has only painted his house in his life and never changed or repaired or fixed or thought about a thing like that, because the train was in the butterbox in the cupboard at the attic.

this is the story of Grandfather.

To be continued!
Frank
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by frankNL
Offline Bayer  
#27 Posted : 20 November 2011 00:05:12(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi Frank,

Mikado is also guidance catalog with prices and descriptions. Personally I prefer this catalog because, as Paul already said, it is more specific and has better descriptions with more details.

By the way, thank you very much for sharing this great locomotive and it's story.

Regards,
Thor
Offline frankNL  
#28 Posted : 20 November 2011 16:18:31(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Hello all, especially Paul and Steve,

I am going to post some photos, please note that I'm not a photographer. I hope you can see all that you want to see, if not, please send a message.
Enjoy!

regards,
Frank

frankNL attached the following image(s):
LNER R700 1.jpg
LNER R700 2.jpg
LNER R700 3.jpg
LNER R700 4.jpg
LNER R700 5.jpg
LNER R700 6.jpg
LNER R700 7.jpg
LNER R700 8.jpg
railwaycrossing 1.jpg
Marklin boxes.jpg
marklin box detail.jpg
342 Mitropa.jpg
365 or 363.jpg
382 Fyffes 1.jpg
367 Talbot 1.jpg
Offline Webmaster  
#29 Posted : 20 November 2011 21:07:48(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
Frank, you have excellent historical items here... Even the "cotton top" on the 365 flatcar is in almost pristine condition, as well as the flatcar itself... I wonder if the whole shebang would not fetch a really really nice price if sold as a lot on auction... Seems we are looking at a rare version of the loco...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Online cookee_nz  
#30 Posted : 21 November 2011 04:51:33(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: frankNL Go to Quoted Post
Hello all, especially Paul and Steve,

I am going to post some photos, please note that I'm not a photographer. I hope you can see all that you want to see, if not, please send a message.
Enjoy!

regards,
Frank



Hi Frank, thanks for the extra photo's.

If that is the total of it, then it seems like you have NO original boxes for the Loco or Wagons?

And you don't have the items for the two boxes you do have, is this correct or are there some items/boxes you did not photograph? - (I don't want to make any wrong assumptions here).

Even without boxes, the items of course are in superb condition, there's no question about that but the value is not (quite) as high as it would be with original packaging. Drool

Is this following summary correct? (based only on images seen);

1 x R700 "LNER" Loco and Tender
1 x 342 Mitropa Speisewagen
1 x 363 Covered Wagen "Marklin"
1 x 367 "Talbot" ballast wagen
1 x 382 Banana Wagen
1 x 458EM Railway Crossing
Quantity assorted Track?
Controller?
** All above items without original boxes??

1 x Carton for 2682M/2 - no contents?
1 x Carton for 430 - no contents?

Cheers

Steve

Edited by user 21 November 2011 21:50:05(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline jvuye  
#31 Posted : 21 November 2011 10:58:38(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: South Western France
Hello Frank and all
Picking this up...I am amazed.
Been collecting and repairing Märklin (including "professionally") for over 60 years, never seen something like this.
I speak Dutch too, so I read the whole story and the inputs from our Dutch/ Vlaamse colleagues, and it is all good advice!
Do no sell via an auction house.
These trains, if sold could fetch a really nice capital for the little guy and give him more than a headstart in life!
If sold, then let them go to real connoisseurs who will cherish and take care of them for the next generation.
I feel we do not really "own" these objects, rather we are the temporary "custodians" and our responsibility is to hand them over to the next generation, and in perfect shape.

I will just add that in case you need any help, advice or part(s) to make sure these are in perfect working condition I'll be more than happy to help.

Met vriendelijke groeten
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline frankNL  
#32 Posted : 21 November 2011 11:02:01(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Hello Steve,

I'm a little confused here: No we don't have boxes from the wagons.
Grandfather has never possessed the items that were intentionally meant for the boxes he does possess, but according to his memory (70 years ago)the loc and tender were placed in these boxes Confused.
Controller is still at the attic, number of tracks is 13 curved and 1 straight (M track typ 3 with 4 (I switch to german) 'hellbeige Papp-Isolierlaschen'.(see picture)
The rest is correct.

regards,
Frank
frankNL attached the following image(s):
M gleis typ3.jpg
Offline Webmaster  
#33 Posted : 21 November 2011 20:51:38(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
Even the tracks look pristine... Simply wonderful... ThumpUp

Listen to Jacques & Paul - at least they know very well what they are talking about...
It is kinda out of my league to suggest anything further.. Wink
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Online cookee_nz  
#34 Posted : 21 November 2011 21:48:37(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: frankNL Go to Quoted Post
Hello Steve,

I'm a little confused here: No we don't have boxes from the wagons.
Grandfather has never possessed the items that were intentionally meant for the boxes he does possess, but according to his memory (70 years ago)the loc and tender were placed in these boxes Confused.
Controller is still at the attic, number of tracks is 13 curved and 1 straight (M track typ 3 with 4 (I switch to german) 'hellbeige Papp-Isolierlaschen'.(see picture)
The rest is correct.

regards,
Frank


Hi Frank,

I suspected that may be the case. At a guess, I would suggest that somehow the Loco and Tender came to be in the two brown boxes, perhaps this was done at the shop, it is hard to say. If the shop did not have the original boxes they must have wanted to put them in something for protection.

It's all guesswork now but at least we have solved the mystery, I'm surprised no one else noticed (or commented) on the boxes, I must be getting picky in my old age BigGrin BigGrin

Keep the Loco in the boxes, they are at least the correct era, and it the label were removed no one would know any different (but don't remove the labels, someone with the contents, especially the Milk-Cart might offer you a tidy sum for it. Perhaps someone even has a correct box for the Loco - they do come up from time to time although that will be a rarity for sure!

MfG

Steve
Melbourne
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#35 Posted : 21 November 2011 23:50:56(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,590
The boxes are definitely not correct for the LNER...the original boxes are vary rare and on their own can be worth nearly the price of the locomotive. I would sell off the two boxes without their contents separately (they are not even for the same gauge so they no bear importance to your LNER). An original box (which has not been faked) for the R 700 LNER would be almost impossible to find on it's own. I have in the past 5-6 years never seen one come up on eBay or auction. An original box for this locomotive (export to UK) would have been produced in the fourth quarter of 1937 when almost all of the LMS and LNER boxes were produced for the 700 series. The boxes were plain brown, had orange and white labels, and stamped in blue "LMS" or "LNER."

I would tend to agree with Jacques about not selling through an auction house. There are many things going on behind the scene which only the very experienced consigner would be aware of. You are much less likely to get burned by selling to a private collector if some appropriate terms of sale are set in place. It would also be a more personal transaction because you are dealing with the buyer instead of dealing with an auctioneer and an anonymous bidder.

Regards,

Paul
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by CCS800KrokHunter3
Online cookee_nz  
#36 Posted : 22 November 2011 07:17:03(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Even the tracks look pristine... Simply wonderful... ThumpUp

Listen to Jacques & Paul - at least they know very well what they are talking about...
It is kinda out of my league to suggest anything further.. Wink


Sometimes I know what I'm talking about too Sad (but you have to listen very carefully) Blushing
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline frankNL  
#37 Posted : 22 November 2011 10:46:42(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Quote:
An original box (which has not been faked) for the R 700 LNER would be almost impossible to find on it's own.

Hello Paul

Is this an original box(It's only a photo and that particular loc is not for sale, but nevertheless)?

http://alte-modellbahnen...17443f2-karton-st-M.html


regards
Frank
Online cookee_nz  
#38 Posted : 22 November 2011 11:47:39(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: frankNL Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
An original box (which has not been faked) for the R 700 LNER would be almost impossible to find on it's own.

Hello Paul

Is this an original box(It's only a photo and that particular loc is not for sale, but nevertheless)?

http://alte-modellbahnen...17443f2-karton-st-M.html


regards
Frank


Hi Frank,

I read your query on the link above, and note you asked this...

RE: 1st carton. 2682M / 2
# 4 by frank68 , Yesterday, 11:21

Hi Thomas,
Many thanks for reply!
Was this helpful picture?
One more question about it: what was inside
, greet
Frank


In my response on the 20th, I already answered this with images... - perhaps there has been some much info going back and forth that you missed it?

"2st 430" means "2 pieces" (2 Stücke) so there would normally be two telegraph poles in that box.

Hope this helps - images of your boxes and images of what should be inside them follow.....
cookee_nz attached the following image(s):
2682M2-ovp.jpg
2682M2.jpg
2st-430-ovp.jpg
430.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#39 Posted : 22 November 2011 14:33:12(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,590
Originally Posted by: frankNL Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
An original box (which has not been faked) for the R 700 LNER would be almost impossible to find on it's own.

Hello Paul

Is this an original box(It's only a photo and that particular loc is not for sale, but nevertheless)?

http://alte-modellbahnen...17443f2-karton-st-M.html


regards
Frank


Hello Frank,

Yes that is an original box, everything coming from elaphos is usually 100% original, he is a fantastic collector. I think it is becoming difficult that there are so many different people commenting on these items. It is of course up to you, but all the information you need has been presented in this forum by people like me, Jacques, Steve, and others.

Regards,

Paul
Offline Webmaster  
#40 Posted : 22 November 2011 22:30:44(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
As an amateur, I find this topic very interesting... Have never seen so well preserved pre-war stuff in the forum, nor on Ebay...
Thanks for the box mystery solution, Steve...ThumpUp I'd love to have those milk carts, though... Wink
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline frankNL  
#41 Posted : 22 November 2011 22:32:28(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Hello Everybody!

Again Thank You All for the great help you give us! This really is a very friendly forum with very helpfull people.

We feel quite humble in such an experienced field of collectors and experts!Blushing

If any subject was asked twice or in a clumsy way by me, than that should absolutely be considered as a slight problem on my behalf in the communication/ or exact understanding of the meaning of the posts (we are Dutch you know...according to a Belgium teacher my wife met today, that is a great handicapBigGrin )
And if we asked a question dubbel in an other forum, than it has the purpose of reaching out for as many seriously interested collectors as possible.

Today Grandfather has told us that during his childhood his hometown had one big toystore and presumably his father bought there the trainset.


Frank




Online cookee_nz  
#42 Posted : 23 November 2011 21:34:54(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: frankNL Go to Quoted Post
Hello Everybody!

Again Thank You All for the great help you give us! This really is a very friendly forum with very helpfull people.

We feel quite humble in such an experienced field of collectors and experts!Blushing

If any subject was asked twice or in a clumsy way by me, than that should absolutely be considered as a slight problem on my behalf in the communication/ or exact understanding of the meaning of the posts (we are Dutch you know...according to a Belgium teacher my wife met today, that is a great handicapBigGrin )
And if we asked a question dubbel in an other forum, than it has the purpose of reaching out for as many seriously interested collectors as possible.

Today Grandfather has told us that during his childhood his hometown had one big toystore and presumably his father bought there the trainset.

Frank



For what it's worth, I have a collector friend in the UK who has the same Loco, I'm sure he wishes it was less 'playworn' than yours.

Roger also has a box with his, and he confirms that while the box is an Italian replica, it is virtually a 100% copy of the original item. Roger says he got it on Ebay about 3 years ago. No one would suggest you get a replica box and try to pass it off as new, more that if you could get one, it would be better than the two incorrect boxes you do have and at least is correctly labeled.

Paul may also be interested in this - I used to have the link for the gent who was making them but I have an idea there was a bit of scuttlebut around these replica boxes?, anyone recall the details?

Regards

Steve
cookee_nz attached the following image(s):
loco R700 LNER-1.jpg
loco R700 LNER-box.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#43 Posted : 23 November 2011 22:10:57(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,590
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the additional photos of the R 700 LNE from Roger. He is a great collector and being in the UK he has some very great British version items. His version of the R 700 LNE is earlier than the LNE discussed in this topic. I do know the guy in Italy who makes these replica boxes. He is very careful who he is in contact with since I believe some time ago there were some problems with Marklin. I've heard stories that his family originally was the printers for Marklin boxes / labels. The replica R 700 LNE box is very good, however, there are many things incorrect with it which I believe were done intentionally so the box could never be passed off as original. There are some boxes from Italy, however, that are very convincing and have recently been achieving prices of original boxes because some collectors can't tell the difference. Apparently some of the topic auction houses and restoration companies also can't tell the difference in some cases. I've heard from a lot of Marklin collectors that when they bought an original antique Marklin loco it came with a box, but they later determined the box was fake. They assumed it was original because it came from a reputable firm.

Best regards,

Paul
Offline frankNL  
#44 Posted : 27 November 2011 13:48:26(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Hello

Here is an update about the sale of the LNER R700 Grandfather possesses.


First I want to say we have bought the replica of the R700 in the German version (from the jubilee-box 50 years Marklin H0; the 00-50 D)with the original box Laugh Joost will be very pleased with it! And ofcourse we did this in memory of Grandfathers loc. Now he can play with it without bodyguards BigGrin

We have an interesting offer for (as our webmaster puts it)"the whole shebang". Ofcourse Grandfather has the biggest voice in the matter but, at the moment, he reads all the posts in the various forums and he weighs up the pros and cons. Internet can be difficult at older age.

If he decides not to agree with this tempting offer we will continue to sort out all information there is about the loc and its tender.
We are also curious if the discrepancy of the loc-tender combination, according to Paul who is ofcourse an expert in this field, is a version which KOLL has neglected (since a few days we possess the 'Koll's kompakt Katalog' 2011) and ways to find out whether that is the fact.

By now we are aware of the historic value of the loc, so preferably we will sell this loc to a museum (and since this loc has a LNER liverage England would be the best place -to museums: please contact us) or a really interested collector and not as an investment.

The next step is likely to be ebay (after 5 december because of the LNER R700 currently for sale there) or maybe an auctionhouse but, as I stated, not preferably.

We are really looking forward to replies that help us further.
Thank you for all your replies so far!

regards
Frank
Offline Jay  
#45 Posted : 27 November 2011 21:16:11(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 246
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Hi Frank
I just want to commend you in the way that you handled all the in depth questions and analysis
that you have had to go through to get to the history and value of your father-in-law's train
set.To the gentlemen on the forum you did a fantastic job.This could so easly have turned
to claims and denials.Members good on all of you.BigGrin

Warm Regards
Jay
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Jay
Online cookee_nz  
#46 Posted : 27 November 2011 21:30:53(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Jay Go to Quoted Post
Hi Frank
I just want to commend you in the way that you handled all the in depth questions and analysis
that you have had to go through to get to the history and value of your father-in-law's train
set.To the gentlemen on the forum you did a fantastic job.This could so easly have turned
to claims and denials.Members good on all of you.BigGrin

Warm Regards
Jay


So often with an item such as this, there is the fear that some unscrupulous toe-rag will pounce on the opportunity, tell the owner that what they have is only worth this or that, this that and that wrong with it etc and gets it simply to resell for a quick buck.

In all my time on this forum I've never seen even a hint of that, obviously we all tend to keep each other honest to a degree, but higher than that is the fact that we are all passionate about our hobby and inherently honest in our dealings with one another anyway.

Those of us that have been following this have all learned something new, variations, anticipated value etc and I'm sure each of us have shared the dream that a Grandfather in our family might one day bring out a dusty old box saying "oh you like trains don't you, this is just getting in my way, is it any use to you?", and opening the box to reveal (whatever your hidden coveted Marklin item might be).

I'm sure we'll all follow with interest the eventual route this train takes to it's destination and while it is fantastic that it might hopefully find it's way to a Museum (historic value over $ value), we have to be realistic that the world is changing and sometimes financial circumstances require that tough decisions are made.

The shame would be for the Train to go through a middle-man simply to make a profit.

There are certainly no shortage of Museums (public and private) that would be able to display this item proudly and at least make a fair offer.

Cheers

Steve
Melbourne

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Online cookee_nz  
#47 Posted : 27 November 2011 21:40:18(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: frankNL Go to Quoted Post
Hello

Here is an update about the sale of the LNER R700 Grandfather possesses.

First I want to say we have bought the replica of the R700 in the German version (from the jubilee-box 50 years Marklin H0; the 00-50 D)with the original box Laugh Joost will be very pleased with it! And ofcourse we did this in memory of Grandfathers loc. Now he can play with it without bodyguards BigGrin

We have an interesting offer for (as our webmaster puts it)"the whole shebang". Ofcourse Grandfather has the biggest voice in the matter but, at the moment, he reads all the posts in the various forums and he weighs up the pros and cons. Internet can be difficult at older age.

If he decides not to agree with this tempting offer we will continue to sort out all information there is about the loc and its tender.
We are also curious if the discrepancy of the loc-tender combination, according to Paul who is ofcourse an expert in this field, is a version which KOLL has neglected (since a few days we possess the 'Koll's kompakt Katalog' 2011) and ways to find out whether that is the fact.

By now we are aware of the historic value of the loc, so preferably we will sell this loc to a museum (and since this loc has a LNER liverage England would be the best place -to museums: please contact us) or a really interested collector and not as an investment.

The next step is likely to be ebay (after 5 december because of the LNER R700 currently for sale there) or maybe an auctionhouse but, as I stated, not preferably.

We are really looking forward to replies that help us further.
Thank you for all your replies so far!

regards
Frank


Hi Frank, Thanks for the update, this is good news.

Just one caution if I may, I have one of those 0050 reproduction sets myself (surprised at how affordable they are) and my understanding is that the the motor in the Engines is not as durable as you might hope for. ie it's certainly not a similar drive as on the original. But that aside, I think they look great. And you have a perfectly good reason to get that set because it's so similar to the one that Grandfather had.

I have never opened mine one up (it's packed away in NZ) so this is second-hand info and I may be completely wrong and have my wires crossed, Blushing someone will quickly correct me but I got the impression it was more of a display item, that 'could' run, and designed for occasional use rather than a regular plaything.

But I'm aware that even some items which should be expected to be played with have not been a tough as they might be, a perfect example being the Thomas Tank Engine set which again I understand can be a disappointment.

I don't want to put you off, more just to make you aware but if anyone can add to this or clarify further it would be great. Has anyone run either of the 0050 sets over an extended period and how have they held up?

Cheers

Steve
Melbourne
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline frankNL  
#48 Posted : 28 November 2011 10:23:23(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Hi Steve,

The reason why we bought this particular loc is, as you said, perfectly clear: it will replace Grandfathers loc. The intention is not to use it frequently, but thanks for your considerations.

regards,
Frank
Offline frankNL  
#49 Posted : 09 December 2011 10:57:10(UTC)
frankNL

Netherlands   
Joined: 19/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: the netherlands
Hello all,

I just posted a new topic at the General MRR-HO scale- section of this forum.
Edit: this topic is now redirected to the collector's corner.
This topic is about the comparison old-replica and what has been changed (for better or worse) in the technology of the Märklin locs over the years. It's a bit selfish Blushing topic but hopefully it's interesting for all of us BigGrin
Looking forward to your replies.
regards,
Frank

Edited by user 16 December 2011 10:02:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Roberto Romano  
#50 Posted : 10 December 2011 05:13:26(UTC)
Roberto Romano


Joined: 02/02/2007(UTC)
Posts: 101
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Dear Frank and friends:

I read with great interest "the whole shebang" on the Grandfather's R 700 LNER and the original boxes and found the topic very interesting and informative, one of the best I would say.

I don't want to digress into another topic, but I have of what I believe is the original box for an electric M* locomotive HS700. My German is very limited and I would like to ask the readers a few brief questions. I did a quick search in the German ebay site and found:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/M...orkrieg-OO-/360359348058
This auction seems that was removed before its ending. How do you interpret the dates in the number of bids?

I also found a "buy-it-now" auction of an HS700 for EUR 6.600,00 !!! apparently without a box:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eB...ame=VIP:watchlink:top:de

Do you read or find if there are original boxes in these auctions?
Since the box is of no use to me I would like to sell it but do first some research on the locomotive to appraise the box value. If you know of anybody interested let me know via my email.
Regards, Roberto
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