Hello !
We are from the Netherlands and we are interested to learn everything about the Marklin LNER R 700 with tender from 1937 or 1938/1939. Grandfather is the proud owner of an original example with which he has played as a child.
His intention is to give his grandson a great start in this spectaculair trainworld-hobby.
So we opened a topic on the dutch internetforum 3railforum.nl the special topic is to be seen at this link:

http://forum.3rail.nl/index.php?topic=32930.0#bott
Here you will find also some photographs.
We would like to get in contact with interested collectors.

Looking forward to your reply,
Greetings from Holland
Frank

Hello Steve,
Wow, All the way to Australia, Grandfather will enjoy this very much!
In Holland we were also advised to seek contact with an Auction House.
This is a complete new world for us, so we start with collect a lot of information at first.
You have got a very good point in saying that maybe as an adult the value for our son would get far beyond any dream. We think that at the moment the value is already sky high!
We are looking for a very serious collector, who offers a reasonable price and by whom the train will really be taken good care of.
We hope our search comes to a very good end.
Regards from the other side of the globe!
Frank

Hello,

Welcome to the forum and you certainly have started off with a very nice train. Unfortunately many collectors and enthusiasts are often "fooled by the book." The KOLL book, other price guides, and even auction house appraisals are usually far off from the actual market values (sometimes they are two or three times too low or too high).

The most important thing is that your locomotive is 100% original and not a repaint or a fake. The packaging materials for the other items suggest that it is from around 1940, but KOLL argues that it is from 1938. I would think it is from more in the time of 1939/1940 because of how the paint looks slightly orange on the frame. The ones from the earlier years have a more dark red coloring. With the British livery locomotives, the dating can be quite difficult. I have even seen British livery locomotives that have couplers which did not even exist in full production at the time. There are many different versions with all different kinds of stamps which are not even addressed in KOLL.

As for the evaluation, 5000 EUR is, probably as you know by now, too high, but it is a nice place to start. I have seen these sell on eBay.de from between 1400 EUR and 5900 EUR. The true price exists somewhere in between. If you would like detailed pricing info, let me know. I have about 20 auction results / eBay results for this locomotive all with varying prices.

With regard to the possibility of selling the locomotive, it is entirely up to you, but here are my observations. On eBay.de there are simply too many fakes. In the past several years I have seen probably 2-3 British livery trains which were actually original and not messed with in some way or completely fake. Surprisingly the fakes sometimes get even more interest. A similar model to yours as a reproduction (repainted) recently sold for almost 2000 EUR while an original could be acquired for just a little bit more and yet on eBay.de right now there is an R700LNER for Buy-It-Now which has received almost no attention (except for one offer made on it that was declined -- which was from me!). The auction houses are a little bit better in this field and might be a little more enjoyable (despite the fees). I would stay away from any auction house which charges an appraisal fee or a commission of over 15%. There is, however, a whole new strategy with auction houses which can be quite difficult and rather risky (you might end up selling the locomotive for much less than you want).

That being said, the British livery locos and trains from Marklin are my absolute favorite, so my first advice to you is to keep the locomotive. Put it in a display case for the grandson to view and carefully run it around the track on special occasions for him to admire. One day he will realize the value of the locomotive and probably sell it himself! (which has its benefits too).

Best regards,

Paul

Ok here are a few photos from the engine and waggons

and yet another

Hello again Marklin friends,

I am sorry I think I have been too rash in saying that the locomotive is "100% original" before seeing all the photos and looking carefully. I have noticed two additional things: the tender is actually for an SLR 700/800 LNER and not the R 700 LNER (note the red strip versus the gold stripe). This changes all my dating analysis because the pieces are from different years. So anywhere from 1937 - 1940. I cannot say whether the side frame (orange paint) is original or not without inspection, but since it does not quite match the red buffer paint, I would suspect repainting.

Regards,

Paul

Paul, since this is a "childhood set" within the family, is it possible that M used what they had in stock to produce this model in about 1940? Thinking of the tender deviation here...

I must say that I have not seen wagons from that era in such good condition earlier...

Not even on Ebay.de... Most are scruffier items that go for ridiculous prices there...

Thanks for all your replies!

We already know that the set of engine and waggons, given as a present for grandfathers birthday, is a composed one from new items (at the time). It was in their town not possible to buy complete sets because of the wartime. The set was given in 1940.

The waggons on the photos are the 367 Talbot, the 382 Fyffes bananas and the 342 Mitropa Speisewagen, for the other numbers please look at the dutch site I stated before.

Again thank you all!
Frank

Ofcourse we will try to translate if you don't understand what is posted on the dutch 3rail forum. When there is enough time next to your train hobby my wife offers to teach you the dutch language. It's not as difficult as you might think; we use all day....
regards
Frank

Frank/Paul, if I may make some more observations....

On the Dutch forum which Frank refers to and has placed some photos, I noted the two plain brown boxes. Or more specifically I noted the labels. We have...

1 x "2St 430" (2 pieces, 430)
1 x "1St 2682M/2" (1 piece, 2682M/2)

Now these are interesting in themselves, especially the 2682.

"430" are Telephone poles, "2682" is a Station Trolley and trailer with Porter and both loaded with two Milk Cartons (catalogue images below).

Personally, I find item 2682 almost as captivating as the Loco. These are EXTREMELY hard to find, complete and with original carton.

2682 was available in the 1937 catalogue but not 1938. 430 was in the 1938 catalogue but not the 1937 one. In 1937 there is a similar item "2402" but this is 25cm high, the 430 is 10 cm high which would suit H0. 25cm implies either 0 or 1 gauge. 2682 may be an 0 gauge item.

Either way, I would be paying closer attention to these items as well.

But it raises obviously the question of the label for the LNER box and of course the other items.

At this stage I can only suggest two things.

1: A FULL inventory of what there is
2: Photos of everything - the items and their boxes, particularly the labels.

We would love to see them of course, but it will also help with confirming dates and values.

I also note your comment that Grandfather (your Dad or your Grandfather?) received these as a child, and from what you says, they were played with for a bit and then put into the attic.

This being the case, if there were left undisturbed over this time, the possibility of any repainting as Paul suggests is less-likely. If the Tender and Loco do not match any documented examples, it could have been a factory or dealer error. And given that these were gifted in 1940, and we all know of the turmoil that must have been going on then, really nothing is beyond possibility.

I think if Grandfather were to state without question that these items are un-altered since new (apart from play-wear) then that needs to be accepted in good faith and the known facts altered to fit the item rather than the item questioned to fit known information (if that makes sense)

Sometimes it is 'attic finds' just like this that introduce a new variant.

This is absolutely NO criticism of Paul, he is bang on with many observations and is highly respected here. He also has some information regarding other overlooked markings on carton labels which may narrow the items down even further - hence the request for more photo's (apart from curiosity).

Fascinating topic and thanks for sharing Frank.

Cheers

Steve (actually an N.Z. Kiwi here 'under duress' while the lovely Nadine does her overseas role)
Melbourne

Hi,

I don't fully agree with you Paul regarding the tender. Isn't the tender for the SLR 700/800 locomotives more streamlined?
I think i have read in Mikados that the golden line actually appears on some R 700/800 LMS/LNER tenders, it is however rarely seen.

Kind regards,
Thor

Hi Thor,

You're absolutely correct...I was referring to the red/gold striping on the tenders only. The SLR versus R tenders are very different as you have noted (especially in the coal tender area). The SLR is more streamlined whereas the R coal tender area is more "boxy"

Mikado usually is more specific / detail-oriented than KOLL so I agree with what they have to say that sometimes the gold line appears on the R series 700/800 locomotives (as in this case).

Regards,

Paul

Hi Frank,

Mikado is also guidance catalog with prices and descriptions. Personally I prefer this catalog because, as Paul already said, it is more specific and has better descriptions with more details.

By the way, thank you very much for sharing this great locomotive and it's story.

Regards,
Thor

Frank, you have excellent historical items here... Even the "cotton top" on the 365 flatcar is in almost pristine condition, as well as the flatcar itself... I wonder if the whole shebang would not fetch a really really nice price if sold as a lot on auction... Seems we are looking at a rare version of the loco...

Hello Frank and all
Picking this up...I am amazed.
Been collecting and repairing Märklin (including "professionally") for over 60 years, never seen something like this.
I speak Dutch too, so I read the whole story and the inputs from our Dutch/ Vlaamse colleagues, and it is all good advice!
Do no sell via an auction house.
These trains, if sold could fetch a really nice capital for the little guy and give him more than a headstart in life!
If sold, then let them go to real connoisseurs who will cherish and take care of them for the next generation.
I feel we do not really "own" these objects, rather we are the temporary "custodians" and our responsibility is to hand them over to the next generation, and in perfect shape.

I will just add that in case you need any help, advice or part(s) to make sure these are in perfect working condition I'll be more than happy to help.

Met vriendelijke groeten

Even the tracks look pristine... Simply wonderful...

Listen to Jacques & Paul - at least they know very well what they are talking about...
It is kinda out of my league to suggest anything further..

The boxes are definitely not correct for the LNER...the original boxes are vary rare and on their own can be worth nearly the price of the locomotive. I would sell off the two boxes without their contents separately (they are not even for the same gauge so they no bear importance to your LNER). An original box (which has not been faked) for the R 700 LNER would be almost impossible to find on it's own. I have in the past 5-6 years never seen one come up on eBay or auction. An original box for this locomotive (export to UK) would have been produced in the fourth quarter of 1937 when almost all of the LMS and LNER boxes were produced for the 700 series. The boxes were plain brown, had orange and white labels, and stamped in blue "LMS" or "LNER."

I would tend to agree with Jacques about not selling through an auction house. There are many things going on behind the scene which only the very experienced consigner would be aware of. You are much less likely to get burned by selling to a private collector if some appropriate terms of sale are set in place. It would also be a more personal transaction because you are dealing with the buyer instead of dealing with an auctioneer and an anonymous bidder.

Regards,

Paul

Hello Everybody!

Again Thank You All for the great help you give us! This really is a very friendly forum with very helpfull people.

We feel quite humble in such an experienced field of collectors and experts!

If any subject was asked twice or in a clumsy way by me, than that should absolutely be considered as a slight problem on my behalf in the communication/ or exact understanding of the meaning of the posts (we are Dutch you know...according to a Belgium teacher my wife met today, that is a great handicap )
And if we asked a question dubbel in an other forum, than it has the purpose of reaching out for as many seriously interested collectors as possible.

Today Grandfather has told us that during his childhood his hometown had one big toystore and presumably his father bought there the trainset.


Frank

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the additional photos of the R 700 LNE from Roger. He is a great collector and being in the UK he has some very great British version items. His version of the R 700 LNE is earlier than the LNE discussed in this topic. I do know the guy in Italy who makes these replica boxes. He is very careful who he is in contact with since I believe some time ago there were some problems with Marklin. I've heard stories that his family originally was the printers for Marklin boxes / labels. The replica R 700 LNE box is very good, however, there are many things incorrect with it which I believe were done intentionally so the box could never be passed off as original. There are some boxes from Italy, however, that are very convincing and have recently been achieving prices of original boxes because some collectors can't tell the difference. Apparently some of the topic auction houses and restoration companies also can't tell the difference in some cases. I've heard from a lot of Marklin collectors that when they bought an original antique Marklin loco it came with a box, but they later determined the box was fake. They assumed it was original because it came from a reputable firm.

Best regards,

Paul

Hi Frank
I just want to commend you in the way that you handled all the in depth questions and analysis
that you have had to go through to get to the history and value of your father-in-law's train
set.To the gentlemen on the forum you did a fantastic job.This could so easly have turned
to claims and denials.Members good on all of you.

Warm Regards
Jay

Hi Frank, Thanks for the update, this is good news.

Just one caution if I may, I have one of those 0050 reproduction sets myself (surprised at how affordable they are) and my understanding is that the the motor in the Engines is not as durable as you might hope for. ie it's certainly not a similar drive as on the original. But that aside, I think they look great. And you have a perfectly good reason to get that set because it's so similar to the one that Grandfather had.

I have never opened mine one up (it's packed away in NZ) so this is second-hand info and I may be completely wrong and have my wires crossed, someone will quickly correct me but I got the impression it was more of a display item, that 'could' run, and designed for occasional use rather than a regular plaything.

But I'm aware that even some items which should be expected to be played with have not been a tough as they might be, a perfect example being the Thomas Tank Engine set which again I understand can be a disappointment.

I don't want to put you off, more just to make you aware but if anyone can add to this or clarify further it would be great. Has anyone run either of the 0050 sets over an extended period and how have they held up?

Cheers

Steve
Melbourne

Hello all,

I just posted a new topic at the General MRR-HO scale- section of this forum.
Edit: this topic is now redirected to the collector's corner.
This topic is about the comparison old-replica and what has been changed (for better or worse) in the technology of the Märklin locs over the years. It's a bit selfish topic but hopefully it's interesting for all of us
Looking forward to your replies.
regards,
Frank

Edited by user 16 December 2011 10:02:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified