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Offline mike c  
#1 Posted : 12 July 2023 02:53:44(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,832
Location: Montreal, QC
In 2021, I received the PiRATA (LS Models) Sets for the SBB IC 6/7 Hamburg-Chur-Hamburg.
I liked the variety of coaches in the consist, but especially the unique Bpm in the post-Cisalpino silver livery with the white SBB CFF FFS inscriptions.
I purchased the first two of the three sets to make up a 6 coach consist. As LSM does not make a model of the Restaurant coach, I used a Roco model.
Recently, Roco released it's long awaited (2022) models of the same consist. The Roco offering, like PiRATA's is a three set 8 coach consist. The Roco models include the restaurant coach, but do not include the Bpm with the white lettering. Roco's sets include an Apm in the Cisalpino livery (no logo). This coach has the livery as applied to a few of the coaches which were operated with the Italian FS Cisalpino (Canaletto and Cinque Terre) consists, which did not have sealed toilets and was not AFAIR NBS/LBT authorized.
The second Roco set (74022) also includes a Bpm in the Cisalpino livery (no logo), which I may use to supplement the consist that I created with the Cisalpino coaches (Roco basis) that were released by Eyro in 2010-11.
For those who prefer the 1/100 Maerklin models, I recreated the IC 6/7 by taking some coaches from the 4367 set, a few from the 43670/71 sets and a Cisalpino Apm from the 26544 set.

I will post some photos when I can.

This is the LSM/PiRATA coach with the white lettering:

IMG_3172.jpeg

Regards

Mike C

Edited by user 21 September 2023 05:32:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline David Dewar  
#2 Posted : 12 July 2023 12:23:15(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,325
Location: Scotland
Hi MIke . Good review. For me I find mixing coaches from different manufacturers can cause running problems along with lighting and couplers.
Dont have the numbers to hand but I did notice in Swiss coaches there was height difference between Roco and Marklin. There can also be a difference in the wheels and I ususally put Marklin wheels on a Roco coach.
Marklin have some new Swiss coaches coming which I preordered at the start of the year.
Look forward to photos when you have time.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 12 July 2023 15:44:26(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,832
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Hi MIke . Good review. For me I find mixing coaches from different manufacturers can cause running problems along with lighting and couplers.
Dont have the numbers to hand but I did notice in Swiss coaches there was height difference between Roco and Marklin. There can also be a difference in the wheels and I ususally put Marklin wheels on a Roco coach.
Marklin have some new Swiss coaches coming which I preordered at the start of the year.
Look forward to photos when you have time.

David

Different manufacturers sometimes use different norms in the production of models. Over time, efforts have been made to develop norms that all manufacturers should follow. These are known as NEM or MOROP norms. For example, some manufacturers made models which were shorter than 1/87. This required that they adjust their models to what became known as scale length. This means that the model (height and width) remained 1/87, but the overall length was rendered at 1/93.5, 1/100 or other scale. A reduced scale length requires that the dimensions of the coach body length be adapted, meaning that the coach is modified in terms of window width or the number of windows. A proper rendering would see that the window height would still be rendered in 1/87, as the height remains unchanged. It occurs that the overall window measurements are rendered in reduced scale, leaving the appearance that the windows are not as tall as the prototype. Maerklin instances that come to mind are the 43874 SBB WRm or the 42972 DB ARDm coach. I have also noted that some Maerklin models have their width rendered in 1/93.5 so that they are narrower than some other similar models (Fleischmann/selected Roco). I do not recall any height differences by scale.
I do know that there are slight discrepancies in height between certain models, (e.g. LSM Eurofima VSE) compared to other similar coaches by that brand. This can often be fixed by adding spacers to the bogies to increase the height.

I don't mind mixing brands, but when you mix different brand's models of the same coach type, the discrepancies stand out. For this reason, I do not run my Roco and LSM SBB EC coaches together.

Roco has brought out the SBB EC coaches (1/87) in the newest livery, Maerklin announced the EWIV (1/100) in the same livery. Nobody yet has the complete selection needed to complete a consist. It is not too bad at the moment as those coaches can still be found with earlier versions of the same coaches in consists.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline mike c  
#4 Posted : 15 September 2023 21:04:31(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,832
Location: Montreal, QC
UPDATED WITH PHOTOS

I received my 74022 Coach set from Roco. Along with the 74021 set, I now have a 6 coach consist for the EC 6/7 from that company. Unlike the Pirata/LSM sets, the Roco sets include the WRm restaurant coach. I have a number of Roco SBB EC coaches in various liveries, so if I choose to extend the length, I can do so. The only difference is that the 74023 set coaches include destination signs in the door windows, which is not absolutely necessary from eye level.

I had to send the ex-Cisalpino Apm coach back to the dealer because a few seat pieces were loose and would not clip back in. I did not want to take the whole coach and glue it together so I requested a replacement. For the moment, I have substituted that coach with a similar model from Eyro that I bought in 2010.

I plan on taking photos of the Pirata and Roco consists so that you can see the differences.

I will also post a photo of my SBB Cisalpino consist, a mix of the coaches commissioned and sold by Eyro in 2010 and the Bpm from the 74022 to extend the consist. Previously the consist had one or two of the coaches in the original black and grey EC livery.

Here are the first photos:

The Roco 74021 (rear) and 74022 (front) Sets. The Apm from the 74021 Set is missing as it was returned to be repaired (loose seat parts)
IMG_5354.jpg
Roco Bpm (ex-Cisalpino) with Black lettering
IMG_5356.jpg
LSM Bpm (ex-Cisalpino) with White lettering. This coach was one of few which received white lettering instead of the standard Black SBB CFF FFS markings, making it unique and the reason why I bought the Pirata/LSM Set when I already had most of the coaches from Roco/Eyro.
IMG_5355.jpg

Regards

Mike C

Edited by user 20 September 2023 23:18:00(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 20 September 2023 22:52:50(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,832
Location: Montreal, QC
Here are more photos from the web and mine:

LSM (L) and Roco (R) Bpm in ex-Cisalpino livery. You can clearly see the Gray Band on the Roco model.
You can also see that the LSM model includes a representation of the sealed waste tank located at the coach end(s).
IMG_5358.jpg
LSM (L) and Roco (R) Apm in ex-Cisalpino livery. You can see the Gray Band on the Roco model.
You can see the differences in the details of the bogies as well as the slight difference in height of the models
I substituted a 64680 for the Roco Apm that was returned to the dealer for repair. A similar coach is part of the 74023 Set, which I skipped, as I already have a number of coaches in the original (44771) and (64680) liveries. Both the Apm and Bpm in this livery from LSM have no added paint details on the door handles, which looks a little basic.
IMG_5360.jpg
Roco (L) and LSM (R) Bpm in so-called ICN livery. You can see the additional vent on the LSM model, added for operation with diesel locomotives on the route to Munich
IMG_5363.jpg
LSM (L) and Roco (R) Bpm in the ICN livery. You can see the bike logo on the LSM model as well as details of the bogies. Note the height difference (again)
IMG_5362.jpg
LSM (L) and Roco (R) Apm in ex-Cisalpino livery. You can see the Gray Band on the Roco model.

http://www.reisezugwagen.../PI_9705-1_Bp_Seite2.jpg
Missing gray band at bottom edge of body
Roco version: https://www.mgtreni.it/W...0A/B016/5B3F/RC64681.jpg

https://eyro.ch/onlineshop/images/pirata9705.jpg
https://eyro.ch/onlineshop/images/pirata9706.jpg

http://www.reisezugwagen.../PI_9706-1_Bp_Seite1.jpg
Destination sign holder covered up

http://www.reisezugwagen.../PI_9705-2_Bp_Seite1.jpg
Destination sign covered up with added vent on coach side

http://www.reisezugwagen.../PI_9706-3_Ap_Seite2.jpg
Missing gray band at lower edge of body

I can't say which one I prefer. Each model has its strong points and it's weaknesses. I think that the Roco model might be a little more rugged and may fare better in operation.
The LSM model has some issues with coupler height (hangs low) that may interfere with operation in certain conditions.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 21 September 2023 05:29:56(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,832
Location: Montreal, QC
The Roco Sets include the WRm restaurant coach. The Pirata/LSM Sets do not. The two LSM Sets (PI9705 and PI9706) include 3 SBB EC coaches each. The 9706 Set includes the 1st Class coach in the silver/gray ex-Cisalpino livery, which is in the third part (74023) of the Roco set. The third LSM Set (9707) includes a 2nd Class (Bpm) in the silver/gray livery, which is in the second (74022) Roco set. A Bpm in the original SBB EC livery is part of each company's third set, meaning that the coach which does not exist in the Roco set is the Bpm in the silver/gray ex-Cisalpino coach with the white SBB CFF FFS markings, making that one unique to LSM.

If you add a Roco WRm to the Pirata/LSM Sets, you get a 7-9 coach consist. Roco's sets give you a maximum of 8 coaches (3 + 3 + 2). You can add an extra coach to bring the total to 9.

I ordered some exclusive models (Roco basis) from Eyro in 2010, including an Apm and Bpm with Cisalpino markings along with a Bpm in the Cisalpino colors but without the Cisalpino logo. I originally ran that train combined with a pair of SBB EC coaches in the original livery, as that was common during the initial days of the Cisalpino EC trains. Using the coaches from the Roco set, I can now expand my Cisalpino EC train using the two coaches (Apm and Bpm) in Cisalpino livery (no logo) from these new sets.
I also have the five coach SBB "Cisalpino" set from LS Models.

I can also model a similar train using Maerklin's 1/100 coaches, combining SBB EC coaches (4367/4368/4369) in the original livery, the Apm from the 26544 Cisalpino Set along with a few EC coaches in the new ICN livery (43670/71/72) along with a 42173 WRm restaurant.

Regards

Mike C
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