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Offline jonas_sthlm  
#1 Posted : 25 April 2023 10:44:52(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
Someone who knows the technical differences?

mSD decoder
(32 Mbit audio memory, 6 audio channels, 16 functions, 4 or 8 Ohms 2.3 W / 1.2 W speakers)
Mono, 12 bit, 16kHz 22kHz

mSD3 decoder
(64 Mbit audio memory, 8 audio channels, 32 functions, 4 or 8 Ohms 2.75 W / 1.6 W speakers)
Mono, 16 or 32 bit, 16kHz 22kHz or 44.1kHz


Feels like Märklin's own documentation is not that consistent with the correct facts Glare

In one place i find 16 bit and 16kHz for mSD3 but nothing about older mSD.

Have they delivered mSD3 both as 32 and 64 audio memory Confused
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 25 April 2023 10:50:09(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
Have they delivered mSD3 both as 32 and 64 audio memory Confused
I think they did. AFAIK you must take care not to add too much sound to a project if you want to install it on a "small" decoder.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline bph  
#3 Posted : 25 April 2023 13:38:20(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
According to the Marklin cs3 book 03093, the mSD is 12 bit and mSD3 is 16 bit. (CD quality is 16bit, 44.1kHz)
And it seems that mSD3 is using 15.525 kHz. at least my custom sound files (24/16bit,44.1kHz) have been converted to 16-bit 15.5 kHz by the mdecodertool. (Constant Bit rate 248 kb/s, Codec: PCM S16 LE (s16l))
Offline jonas_sthlm  
#4 Posted : 25 April 2023 13:48:38(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
ok, thx

But most other decoders run 8 bit, so I wonder where M got their 12 from, göpp-standard Confused

I have not find anything that confirm using 32 bit for there mSD3 decoder...

When you say your own is it station announcement?
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 25 April 2023 14:34:58(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
But most other decoders run 8 bits, so I wonder where M got their 12 from, göpp-standard Confused
From ESU.EU for LokSound 5:

"Jeder Kanal in 16-Bit-Auflösung und 31250 Hz Samplerate
Geräuschspeicher mit 128 Mbit Kapazität [...]
10 Soundkanäle gleichzeitig abspielbar"

So not 44 kHz, but 16 bit.

ESU LokSound 4 used 12 bit.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline bph  
#6 Posted : 25 April 2023 14:52:31(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
ok, thx

I have not find anything that confirm using 32 bit for there mSD3 decoder...

When you say your own is it station announcement?


do you mean 32 Mbit ?, at least early MFX+ decoders had only 32Mbit e.g locomotives with decoder part no 259851

with my own sounds, its e.g. station announcements and other sound effect etc. Sometimes I grab some sounds from a video. I just load the video in Audacity and grab the sequence I want and just store the file as a high-quality vaw and let the mdecodertool convert it.

eg I extracted the sound from this video clip: https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/posts/t48067-Die-Bahn-hat-s-verbockt. I used the Audacity to clean it up a bit and adjust the volume and shorten it before I loaded it onto my ICE Smile

Edit:
Märklin mSD3 official tecinal specification:
https://www.maerklin.de/fileadmin/media/produkte/Neuheiten/mSD_3_Technische_Daten_online_D.pdf
Offline jonas_sthlm  
#7 Posted : 25 April 2023 16:10:20(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
I am talking about "encoding" type 8bit PCM... and M want 12bit for the old mSD decoder something between 8 to 16

yes I note article on the net saying mSD3 also support 32bit PCM...


For me its more external sounds, especially from station.

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Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 25 April 2023 17:55:34(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
I am talking about "encoding" type 8bit PCM... and M want 12bit for the old mSD decoder something between 8 to 16

yes I note article on the net saying mSD3 also support 32bit PCM...


It would be an ancient decoder to be using 8 bit PCM, that is digital telephone technology from the 1970s.

AFAIK ESU have always used 12 bit sound, at least since v3 decoders.

Nowadays both ESU V5 and Marklin msd/3 use 32 bit microprocessors, 32 bit sound, where available as a sound file, will be used.
Offline bph  
#9 Posted : 25 April 2023 19:23:50(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
I am talking about "encoding" type 8bit PCM... and M want 12bit for the old mSD decoder something between 8 to 16

yes I note article on the net saying mSD3 also support 32bit PCM...


It would be an ancient decoder to be using 8 bit PCM, that is digital telephone technology from the 1970s.

AFAIK ESU have always used 12 bit sound, at least since v3 decoders.

Nowadays both ESU V5 and Marklin msd/3 use 32 bit microprocessors, 32 bit sound, where available as a sound file, will be used.


when a user sound file with 32bit 44.1 kHz (PCM) is added to mdecodertool the software converts its down to 16bit 15.525 kHz
and if an 8bit 8kHz file is added it is also upsampled to 16bit 15.525 kHz
And manually trying to use a 32bit or 8 bit 15.525 kHz only gives an error saying invalid resolution. It might also be my software or something I'm not doing right. but manually adding a 16bit 15.525 kHz works fine.
(manually copying the file into the folder with a user sound file in a medecodertool user sound file folder, and renaming it to Start.wav, and not using the crate your own tool)
but Marklin might be able to do things differently themselves........
Offline bph  
#10 Posted : 25 April 2023 20:04:58(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post


For me its more external sounds, especially from station.

I have used some Swedish sound files from this site: http://www.bangardar.se/hogtalarutrop/hogtalarutrop.php

do you know of other similar sites like that one?
Offline clapcott  
#11 Posted : 27 April 2023 07:53:53(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
Have they delivered mSD3 both as 32 and 64 audio memory Confused
I think they did. AFAIK you must take care not to add too much sound to a project if you want to install it on a "small" decoder.


There have been technology improvements within each type of decoder since their introduction.

With reference to the release notes, there are two original decoder variants with 32Mb
ref m*D/ table

Historically there was also a transition period where the mDT (Decoder Tool) would not permit posting > 32Mb (4MB) sound projects throug the CS*
(the same sound project would load OK using the mDP (Decoder Programmer) )

The mDT has a memory gauge with a mark for 32Mb - unfortunately it does not do any lookup of the decoder type (partnumber) to highlight/enforce the 32Mb limit as applicable to the decoder being updated.
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Offline jonas_sthlm  
#12 Posted : 27 April 2023 08:58:13(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

For me its more external sounds, especially from station.

I have used some Swedish sound files from this site: http://www.bangardar.se/hogtalarutrop/hogtalarutrop.php

do you know of other similar sites like that one?

yes i know that site but woman sounds boring, thanks ThumpUp

Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

And manually trying to use a 32bit or 8 bit 15.525 kHz only gives an error saying invalid resolution. It might also be my software or something I'm not doing right. but manually adding a 16bit 15.525 kHz works fine.
(manually copying the file into the folder with a user sound file in a medecodertool user sound file folder, and renaming it to Start.wav, and not using the crate your own tool)
but Marklin might be able to do things differently themselves........

So the conclusion is that mDT3 tool always convert added wav files to 16bit and 16kHz (15.525 kHz) for both decoder gen mSD/mSD3, and it doesn't allow manuell types of wav files with 8 or 32 bit values....

I can get the feeling that even if the file is saved as 16bit and 15.525 kHz, a bad crackling sound is obtained in the decoder that is not present when playing through Audacity.

It doesn't happen in either ESU LS5 or Zimo MX/MS...
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Offline bph  
#13 Posted : 27 April 2023 23:40:04(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

For me its more external sounds, especially from station.

I have used some Swedish sound files from this site: http://www.bangardar.se/hogtalarutrop/hogtalarutrop.php

do you know of other similar sites like that one?

yes i know that site but woman sounds boring, thanks ThumpUp

yes the sound clips is a bit flat and boring, but it helps to add some effects to the clips to simulate a station and some age etc.

Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

And manually trying to use a 32bit or 8 bit 15.525 kHz only gives an error saying invalid resolution. It might also be my software or something I'm not doing right. but manually adding a 16bit 15.525 kHz works fine.
(manually copying the file into the folder with a user sound file in a medecodertool user sound file folder, and renaming it to Start.wav, and not using the crate your own tool)
but Marklin might be able to do things differently themselves........

So the conclusion is that mDT3 tool always convert added wav files to 16bit and 16kHz (15.525 kHz) for both decoder gen mSD/mSD3, and it doesn't allow manuell types of wav files with 8 or 32 bit values....

I can get the feeling that even if the file is saved as 16bit and 15.525 kHz, a bad crackling sound is obtained in the decoder that is not present when playing through Audacity.

It doesn't happen in either ESU LS5 or Zimo MX/MS...


I would not be surprised if the msd3 decoder itself is able to handle 12 bit sounds, eg sounds made for the old msd. but eg the Audacity cant make 12bit vaw files. In a quick test, I "tricked" the mdecodertool and loaded an 8 bit 15.525 kHz file onto a mSD3 decoder. but the sound was absolute gibberish. (other standard sounds were fine). but with out some more information about the firmware and decoder speifications its just speculation...... But it would be interesting to try a 12 bit sound file if there was some software available that could make that fairly easily.
Offline jonas_sthlm  
#14 Posted : 29 April 2023 10:06:35(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
yes, that was a bit of your point, that 12 bit is not really supported by application that convert....

should prefer keep some sounds like voice message smaller.

Something i add to my Norwegian models RollEyes

Togene fra Xhld og G til Xosl 15_21 er ca 35 minutter forsinket.wav 16bit 15.525 kHz

Do you downgrade mSD3 project for the older mSD?
Collecting Swedish items since the 80s / CS3+ / MSW / 60175 Booster / 60881 S88 AC / TC10 Gold / K, C-Tracks / Favorites Class Ra / modelltag.se - Forum modelltag.se - Facebook modelltag.se - YouTube
Offline bph  
#15 Posted : 29 April 2023 18:57:31(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
yes, that was a bit of your point, that 12 bit is not really supported by application that convert....

should prefer keep some sounds like voice message smaller.

Something i add to my Norwegian models RollEyes

Togene fra Xhld og G til Xosl 15_21 er ca 35 minutter forsinket.wav 16bit 15.525 kHz

Do you downgrade mSD3 project for the older mSD?


Thanks for the Norwegian file :)

to have some voice announcements in 12bit would make sense. and I suspect Marklin uses 12 bit in some of their clips and that older msd3 decoder projects are mostly 12-bit. I haven't downgraded any projects.

So I would like to try 12bit if I could find software that supported it.
Offline jonas_sthlm  
#16 Posted : 29 April 2023 23:11:00(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
But you know how to get the sound files out from the original M project?
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Offline bph  
#17 Posted : 03 May 2023 23:53:43(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: jonas_sthlm Go to Quoted Post
But you know how to get the sound files out from the original M project?


you can open decoder projects with e.g. 7-zip (but the files are still encrypted).
but the useful thing is that you take the unique files from a project and add those files to the eigeneBibliothek folder. That way you can later use them in your own custom project.
So e.g. you can easily extract the new station announcement and other sounds from the new rc 5/6 projects and use those in other projects.

changing the file type from .mdtp to .zip will enable you to open it directly in windows explorer as a standard zip file. just remember to change it back before you open it in mdecodertool

Edited by user 04 May 2023 16:10:24(UTC)  | Reason: Added zip info

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Offline jonas_sthlm  
#18 Posted : 04 May 2023 07:31:17(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
Ok,

another way is to turn on show hidden files inside windows

Then open the project with mDT3 and you will find all files inside temp folder

C:\Users\%your account name%\AppData\Local\Temp\mDecoderTool3\%the file name%\snd\mBibliothek

I doing a shortcut from my desktop to C:\Users\%your account name%\AppData\Local\Temp\mDecoderTool3\ and turn off show hidden files

Copy the map structure over into C:\Users\%your account name%\Documents\Maerklin\Soundbibliothek\eigeneBibliothek

Then I start a new project for the old mSD decoder for my converted Rc locomotive and use almost all settings like the original mSD3 file.
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