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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#1 Posted : 09 March 2023 00:15:23(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,238
Location: CA, USA
Hi everyone, you can guess where this is going!

I am currently in discussions with the bureau of local land management (also known on the forums as the FD!), and I may be able to grab a dream layout space in the coming year or two.

Speaking to that space: one dimension is fixed by the existing walls/room, and a very exciting 18' 1" (550cm) ThumpUp

However, the second dimension is the subject of a new partition wall that will divide the attic. The organic proposed dimension is 10' 10" (330cm).

- For a few structural reasons this cannot go any smaller (which is great!). Nor would I want it to, of course.
- It can become a little larger (which is also great!), but only if I can justify it: it would have to unlock a major breakthrough in layout planning. We are talking a max of maybe one foot/30cm without too much stress. Extending 1-2 feet/30-60cm is very difficult, but I don't want to rule that out.

I am curious what all of your thoughts are? Of course bigger is better, but there are sacrifices up to that additional 1 foot, and major cost implications if going between 1-2 feet (related to construction)

I think it all comes down to layout curves. There is no track plan, but a "U" shaped design is likely the direction I'm headed in. C track, wide radius is the plan.

Thoughts? I know this seems like an odd question, but somewhere is a person who has lived through this and can give a valuable insight. to give an example: If this were a DC layout in US prototype, the magic number is 11.5 feet. (a pair of 24" radius curves with trim, and 3 feet to walk in between...)

Edited by user 09 March 2023 06:48:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline mbarreto  
#2 Posted : 09 March 2023 00:38:31(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,112

Considering you want an U shaped layout, I suggest you use the following to justify a few more width:

1- Currently Märklin is producing locomotives that need a minimum curve radius of R2;
2- You want at least 2 paralell curves, so R3 180 degrees curves are a minimum at each top of the U;
3- R3 is 515mm, so diameter is 1030mm and you need some extra for the trains don't touch the wall and for not fall out of the layout, so let's say you need 100mm each side of track, so 200mm extra (we are not counting with the track width);
4- So you need 2 (sides tops of the U), each with 1030 + 200 = 1230mm. A total of 2x 1230= 2460mm;
5- You also need space to move inside the U. Here if you are fat is easier to justify, anyway you can always say you need at least 1200mm;
6- The total is 2460 + 1200 = 3660mm = 3,66 meters.

Of course you may prefer to have larger radius and less space to move, or just want larger radius and keep the space to move, etc: it's just play with what you think is better for you and easier to convince.

Regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline mmervine  
#3 Posted : 09 March 2023 01:20:56(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,850
Location: Keene, NH
John-my layout is 22' x 12.5'. It is a walk in U shape with R3 (single track) helix's on each side. My room was 12.5' wide, but you could get away with 10' 10" as that would give you a 2'10" opening between each side of the layout (4' each). I would try to get an extra foot, if possible, but you could make it work. PM me if you want more details or maybe even a quick Zoom or WhatsApp video tour.

mark
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
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Offline rbw993  
#4 Posted : 09 March 2023 01:51:43(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 917
Don't tell "anyone" but you can offset the helixes on a diagonal. Depending on what's on top of the shorter end it could work well.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#5 Posted : 09 March 2023 06:46:56(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,238
Location: CA, USA
Thanks guys! All excellent points. Keep the ideas and inputs coming!

Miguel- exactly what I was thinking.

Mark- I'd love to see your progress! I'll get in touch offline

rbw993- indeed I might need to do that to accomodate the entry doorway anyhow

Thanks all! Keep the suggestions coming!

Adjusting for a few "dreams" (or "worst case scenarios") All three of you have contributed to my most realistic case: Miguel and Mark's math adjusted for the fact I'm not a big guy, but want an r3/4 mainline needing a little more diameter. This meets RBw's staggered approach and there is a solution in there somewhere!



FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline Toosmall  
#6 Posted : 09 March 2023 06:54:32(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 444
Location: Sydney
The "blue paper" will be 1 gauge for as much real estate as possible.

The "white paper" will be HO which ultimately will be scrapped due to internal factions.

Replaced with the "transparent paper" for the ultimate Z gauge layout!
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Online PeFu  
#7 Posted : 09 March 2023 06:59:01(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,042
Very interesting topic! Looking at my own layout room, I decided to optimise layout size. The need of free space for visitors or assisting workers ranked 3rd, as I’m alone in the room 99.9 % of the time. 2nd though, came my need of ”work and control” space. I decided to have a small desk for computer control with two flat screens, the desk could also be used for small soldering tasks etc. This desk is actually located under a part of the layout. Larger tasks like sawing and milling boards, I have mainly done outside in the garden. The winter season have sometimes caused temperature and/or snow constraints here in Sweden, which I guess the California sun doesn’t…

The layout itself is restricted to 6 x 2 meters, and resulted in a very narrow U shape; approx. 70 cm layout + 60 cm space + 70 cm layout, at the ”waist”. Building the layout, I was very happy I spend some time securing layout access during the planning phase. There are some areas with reversing loops and helixes, where the 70 cm ”rule” is N/A, this has been solved with two ”manholes”.

If I could have expanded the 2 meter dimension, I would probably have expanded the free space between the U legs a little. I’m very satisfied with the dogbone track topology. Trains seems to run point-to-point, I never get the feeling of trains running round-and-round (as they actually do). Having even more space, I would therefore have expanded the layout towards a G-shape, rather than a W-shape. (However, a W-shape could be very useful if you are interested in having a roundhouse and loco yard, placing it in the wider, reachable, mid leg.)

Can a private layout be too large? Well, it’s a hobby, it should take some time to build, without deadlines. For me, it has been important to build section by section, making it possible to have some nice running of trains from time to type. A plywood landscape is also a landscape!

BigGrin


Inspired by Swiss railways SBB and BLS | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
The Andreasburg-Mattiasberg layout on the Marklin-Users Forum and on Youtube
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 09 March 2023 11:08:42(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,436
Location: Hybrid Home
Congratulations and compliments to FD! Yes, I would like to share two thoughts:

1) Having gone through various phases of squeezing as much layout surface into the room as possible, my advice is to foresee some "breathing space" for at least a couple of chairs, so that one may stay and linger in the train room.

2) Too often I've seen people not get beyond the construction of an overly ambitious staging yard. So one should keep it simple (a large surface qualifies also as "simple" in my world view) or build section by section to avoid fatigue.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#9 Posted : 09 March 2023 13:21:23(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,595
Location: United States
Great thread! Some very helpful information has already been posted. ThumpUp

I will have a new house with a new train room this summer and I have not yet started layout planning. I will take a look at the house plans and see what my available space might be. The room is not huge and it will have some other uses beyond trains, so I am concerned about having enough train "room" as it were.

This thread is going to be a big help as I start my planning.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#10 Posted : 09 March 2023 19:54:48(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,238
Location: CA, USA
Thanks all!

For those of you who are musing or starting from the beginning, the old bible for this sort of thing is John Armstrong's "Track Planning for realistic operation"

It may seem irrelevant if you don't want realistic operations, or not quite applicable to Marklin, but if you slowly read cover to cover there are incredible learnings to come from the book.

Back to my project, this is a near impossible task without a track plan. (even the "U" is debatable, albeit very likely). I know better then to attempt this now, but reality is that the room needs a decision in the next 1-2 months, and no well-devised track plan can happen that quickly. Better I define the room, then the plan itself...

The likely solution will be bumping out the ~1 foot which requires little sacrifice.

PeFu brings up the VERY important component of a modelling workbench- which is much more important to me than having a bigger/max size layout since I'll spend more time at that then the layout itself- a least before trains are running.

Also storage for all boxes and related items to be sorted under the layout without getting in the way, and a few other details.

And a one-loop parade track for my DC American HO. Only a piece of this needs to be visible.

As you can see planning within the room will be complex... Part of the agreement with the FD is that the ENTIRE hobby lives within this room- not even a magazine is allowed outside of it!

Edited by user 10 March 2023 05:54:06(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline Carim  
#11 Posted : 10 March 2023 08:41:28(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 619
Location: London
One thing that you might also want to consider is, what if you ever want to move house? Will the layout have to be demolished or will you build it in such a way that the parts can fit through the door and be reconstructed at another location?

Carim
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#12 Posted : 10 March 2023 12:20:29(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,436
Location: Hybrid Home
That's why my "benchwork" consists of folding height adjustable tables. Bonus: Combining tables with different heights allows for a hanging valley. This allows for quick assembly, modification and disassembly as well as easy storage and transport. Excess stuff (empty boxes and surplus material) remains in large storage containers on wheels under the tables.
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Offline rbw993  
#13 Posted : 10 March 2023 14:13:55(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 917
Armstrong.jpg

You mean this bible?

Found my copy as I was cleaning out preparing for the upcoming move. This copy is 50 years old (at least)!
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#14 Posted : 10 March 2023 17:10:43(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,238
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
Armstrong.jpg

You mean this bible?

Found my copy as I was cleaning out preparing for the upcoming move. This copy is 50 years old (at least)!


That is the one! Such a great book. The new copy has revisions, but the core book is the same I think. ThumpUp
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#15 Posted : 10 March 2023 18:47:21(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,436
Location: Hybrid Home
Never without my Armstrong reference book! I am the proud owner of a 1998 edition.

EFC89CA0-1C60-46DD-A867-3B7D1959F723.jpeg
Offline Toosmall  
#16 Posted : 10 March 2023 20:42:38(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 444
Location: Sydney
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
One thing that you might also want to consider is, what if you ever want to move house? Will the layout have to be demolished or will you build it in such a way that the parts can fit through the door and be reconstructed at another location?

Carim

I have heard of architectural models where walls of buildings have had to be demolished for model due to lack of planning. Wall was less valuable than model.

Design the base so it is in a modular and stackable size to get in a van, lifts, around difficult door entrance orientation.

You might have to do some surgery, but at least you won't have to destroy an entire layout.

The largest architectural models I built, I built a simple template to get out of my office (build rigid structural corners with metal brackets. Won't cost much more at the construction stage).

A few times I have had customer who wanted X scale model... how do you get it in a taxi! or other basic longer term display situations.

My current layout had to fit in a room with the option of being moved to another room & also fit in our previous smaller car. One module is only 400mm long but it just makes things far more flexible.


We are all only temporary custodians of the space we currently occupy. Well... maybe not the last one!

(If being cremated, say "it is getting hot in here can someone turn the air conditioning on!")
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Offline Mr. Ron  
#17 Posted : 10 March 2023 21:25:40(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 300
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
It has been my experience that anything you do has to have a plan before building, whether it be a house or a model railroad. I know not everyone has the ability to draw to scale, but that is what is needed. In my case, I have been using Autocad software that enables me to produce a scale drawing of the layout. before the first piece of framework is ever cut. Doing it without a scale plan, is almost impossible to do. It can be done, but not without a lot of mid course changes. The plan will not turn out the way you imagine without a detailed plan. I suggest that you familiarize yourself with some basic drawing tools and create what you want to scale on paper before trying to build. If this is to be a fixed layout, one that will always occupy your available space or a layout that needs to be broken down into convenient sizes for moving will require software (scale drawing). That will always be the first step in any building project.
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Offline Toosmall  
#18 Posted : 14 March 2023 04:32:51(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 444
Location: Sydney
I agree, do a full set of plans for the layout. Then scale up to the actual building scale.

If you can't use software (I use Lightwave for 3d work), use paper at let's say 1:5 of the actual built scale.

You can plan all your RLs (relative levels), give the lowest point on you layout or slightly below an RL or 0.000 metres (that is you base RL). Work up from there (space out track gradients evenly by plotting RLs).

Once you have got all your tracks, heights, clearances, roads, footpaths, buildings, module joins and growies dimensions sorted, print to building scale, or at least transfer.

If you need a large set of compasses for drawing radius by hand. A long strip of cardboard with pivot point pushed through strip, nail will do, and pencil at X distance through other end of strip.

Old fashion typing carbon paper works a treat to trace drawing outlines to baseboard.

Every minute spent on drawings will save at least 10 minutes avoiding stuff-ups.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#19 Posted : 14 March 2023 13:02:05(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,436
Location: Hybrid Home
A German saying to be heeded (replace house by MRR layout):

"You’re building your first house for your enemy, your second one for your friend and your third one for yourself."

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