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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#1 Posted : 09 March 2023 00:15:23(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,870
Location: CA, USA
Hi everyone, you can guess where this is going!

I am currently in discussions with the bureau of local land management (also known on the forums as the FD!), and I may be able to grab a dream layout space in the coming year or two.

Speaking to that space: one dimension is fixed by the existing walls/room, and a very exciting 18' 1" (550cm) ThumpUp

However, the second dimension is the subject of a new partition wall that will divide the attic. The organic proposed dimension is 10' 10" (330cm).

- For a few structural reasons this cannot go any smaller (which is great!). Nor would I want it to, of course.
- It can become a little larger (which is also great!), but only if I can justify it: it would have to unlock a major breakthrough in layout planning. We are talking a max of maybe one foot/30cm without too much stress. Extending 1-2 feet/30-60cm is very difficult, but I don't want to rule that out.

I am curious what all of your thoughts are? Of course bigger is better, but there are sacrifices up to that additional 1 foot, and major cost implications if going between 1-2 feet (related to construction)

I think it all comes down to layout curves. There is no track plan, but a "U" shaped design is likely the direction I'm headed in. C track, wide radius is the plan.

Thoughts? I know this seems like an odd question, but somewhere is a person who has lived through this and can give a valuable insight. to give an example: If this were a DC layout in US prototype, the magic number is 11.5 feet. (a pair of 24" radius curves with trim, and 3 feet to walk in between...)

Edited by user 09 March 2023 06:48:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline mbarreto  
#2 Posted : 09 March 2023 00:38:31(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,268

Considering you want an U shaped layout, I suggest you use the following to justify a few more width:

1- Currently Märklin is producing locomotives that need a minimum curve radius of R2;
2- You want at least 2 paralell curves, so R3 180 degrees curves are a minimum at each top of the U;
3- R3 is 515mm, so diameter is 1030mm and you need some extra for the trains don't touch the wall and for not fall out of the layout, so let's say you need 100mm each side of track, so 200mm extra (we are not counting with the track width);
4- So you need 2 (sides tops of the U), each with 1030 + 200 = 1230mm. A total of 2x 1230= 2460mm;
5- You also need space to move inside the U. Here if you are fat is easier to justify, anyway you can always say you need at least 1200mm;
6- The total is 2460 + 1200 = 3660mm = 3,66 meters.

Of course you may prefer to have larger radius and less space to move, or just want larger radius and keep the space to move, etc: it's just play with what you think is better for you and easier to convince.

Regards,
Miguel
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline mmervine  
#3 Posted : 09 March 2023 01:20:56(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,884
Location: Keene, NH
John-my layout is 22' x 12.5'. It is a walk in U shape with R3 (single track) helix's on each side. My room was 12.5' wide, but you could get away with 10' 10" as that would give you a 2'10" opening between each side of the layout (4' each). I would try to get an extra foot, if possible, but you could make it work. PM me if you want more details or maybe even a quick Zoom or WhatsApp video tour.

mark
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
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Offline rbw993  
#4 Posted : 09 March 2023 01:51:43(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 956
Don't tell "anyone" but you can offset the helixes on a diagonal. Depending on what's on top of the shorter end it could work well.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#5 Posted : 09 March 2023 06:46:56(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,870
Location: CA, USA
Thanks guys! All excellent points. Keep the ideas and inputs coming!

Miguel- exactly what I was thinking.

Mark- I'd love to see your progress! I'll get in touch offline

rbw993- indeed I might need to do that to accomodate the entry doorway anyhow

Thanks all! Keep the suggestions coming!

Adjusting for a few "dreams" (or "worst case scenarios") All three of you have contributed to my most realistic case: Miguel and Mark's math adjusted for the fact I'm not a big guy, but want an r3/4 mainline needing a little more diameter. This meets RBw's staggered approach and there is a solution in there somewhere!



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Offline Toosmall  
#6 Posted : 09 March 2023 06:54:32(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 617
Location: Sydney
The "blue paper" will be 1 gauge for as much real estate as possible.

The "white paper" will be HO which ultimately will be scrapped due to internal factions.

Replaced with the "transparent paper" for the ultimate Z gauge layout!
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Offline PeFu  
#7 Posted : 09 March 2023 06:59:01(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,212
Very interesting topic! Looking at my own layout room, I decided to optimise layout size. The need of free space for visitors or assisting workers ranked 3rd, as I’m alone in the room 99.9 % of the time. 2nd though, came my need of ”work and control” space. I decided to have a small desk for computer control with two flat screens, the desk could also be used for small soldering tasks etc. This desk is actually located under a part of the layout. Larger tasks like sawing and milling boards, I have mainly done outside in the garden. The winter season have sometimes caused temperature and/or snow constraints here in Sweden, which I guess the California sun doesn’t…

The layout itself is restricted to 6 x 2 meters, and resulted in a very narrow U shape; approx. 70 cm layout + 60 cm space + 70 cm layout, at the ”waist”. Building the layout, I was very happy I spend some time securing layout access during the planning phase. There are some areas with reversing loops and helixes, where the 70 cm ”rule” is N/A, this has been solved with two ”manholes”.

If I could have expanded the 2 meter dimension, I would probably have expanded the free space between the U legs a little. I’m very satisfied with the dogbone track topology. Trains seems to run point-to-point, I never get the feeling of trains running round-and-round (as they actually do). Having even more space, I would therefore have expanded the layout towards a G-shape, rather than a W-shape. (However, a W-shape could be very useful if you are interested in having a roundhouse and loco yard, placing it in the wider, reachable, mid leg.)

Can a private layout be too large? Well, it’s a hobby, it should take some time to build, without deadlines. For me, it has been important to build section by section, making it possible to have some nice running of trains from time to type. A plywood landscape is also a landscape!

BigGrin


Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 09 March 2023 11:08:42(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,688
Location: Hybrid Home
Congratulations and compliments to FD! Yes, I would like to share two thoughts:

1) Having gone through various phases of squeezing as much layout surface into the room as possible, my advice is to foresee some "breathing space" for at least a couple of chairs, so that one may stay and linger in the train room.

2) Too often I've seen people not get beyond the construction of an overly ambitious staging yard. So one should keep it simple (a large surface qualifies also as "simple" in my world view) or build section by section to avoid fatigue.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#9 Posted : 09 March 2023 13:21:23(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,696
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Great thread! Some very helpful information has already been posted. ThumpUp

I will have a new house with a new train room this summer and I have not yet started layout planning. I will take a look at the house plans and see what my available space might be. The room is not huge and it will have some other uses beyond trains, so I am concerned about having enough train "room" as it were.

This thread is going to be a big help as I start my planning.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#10 Posted : 09 March 2023 19:54:48(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,870
Location: CA, USA
Thanks all!

For those of you who are musing or starting from the beginning, the old bible for this sort of thing is John Armstrong's "Track Planning for realistic operation"

It may seem irrelevant if you don't want realistic operations, or not quite applicable to Marklin, but if you slowly read cover to cover there are incredible learnings to come from the book.

Back to my project, this is a near impossible task without a track plan. (even the "U" is debatable, albeit very likely). I know better then to attempt this now, but reality is that the room needs a decision in the next 1-2 months, and no well-devised track plan can happen that quickly. Better I define the room, then the plan itself...

The likely solution will be bumping out the ~1 foot which requires little sacrifice.

PeFu brings up the VERY important component of a modelling workbench- which is much more important to me than having a bigger/max size layout since I'll spend more time at that then the layout itself- a least before trains are running.

Also storage for all boxes and related items to be sorted under the layout without getting in the way, and a few other details.

And a one-loop parade track for my DC American HO. Only a piece of this needs to be visible.

As you can see planning within the room will be complex... Part of the agreement with the FD is that the ENTIRE hobby lives within this room- not even a magazine is allowed outside of it!

Edited by user 10 March 2023 05:54:06(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Carim  
#11 Posted : 10 March 2023 08:41:28(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 653
Location: London
One thing that you might also want to consider is, what if you ever want to move house? Will the layout have to be demolished or will you build it in such a way that the parts can fit through the door and be reconstructed at another location?

Carim
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#12 Posted : 10 March 2023 12:20:29(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,688
Location: Hybrid Home
That's why my "benchwork" consists of folding height adjustable tables. Bonus: Combining tables with different heights allows for a hanging valley. This allows for quick assembly, modification and disassembly as well as easy storage and transport. Excess stuff (empty boxes and surplus material) remains in large storage containers on wheels under the tables.
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Offline rbw993  
#13 Posted : 10 March 2023 14:13:55(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 956
Armstrong.jpg

You mean this bible?

Found my copy as I was cleaning out preparing for the upcoming move. This copy is 50 years old (at least)!
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#14 Posted : 10 March 2023 17:10:43(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,870
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
Armstrong.jpg

You mean this bible?

Found my copy as I was cleaning out preparing for the upcoming move. This copy is 50 years old (at least)!


That is the one! Such a great book. The new copy has revisions, but the core book is the same I think. ThumpUp
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#15 Posted : 10 March 2023 18:47:21(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,688
Location: Hybrid Home
Never without my Armstrong reference book! I am the proud owner of a 1998 edition.

EFC89CA0-1C60-46DD-A867-3B7D1959F723.jpeg
Offline Toosmall  
#16 Posted : 10 March 2023 20:42:38(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 617
Location: Sydney
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
One thing that you might also want to consider is, what if you ever want to move house? Will the layout have to be demolished or will you build it in such a way that the parts can fit through the door and be reconstructed at another location?

Carim

I have heard of architectural models where walls of buildings have had to be demolished for model due to lack of planning. Wall was less valuable than model.

Design the base so it is in a modular and stackable size to get in a van, lifts, around difficult door entrance orientation.

You might have to do some surgery, but at least you won't have to destroy an entire layout.

The largest architectural models I built, I built a simple template to get out of my office (build rigid structural corners with metal brackets. Won't cost much more at the construction stage).

A few times I have had customer who wanted X scale model... how do you get it in a taxi! or other basic longer term display situations.

My current layout had to fit in a room with the option of being moved to another room & also fit in our previous smaller car. One module is only 400mm long but it just makes things far more flexible.


We are all only temporary custodians of the space we currently occupy. Well... maybe not the last one!

(If being cremated, say "it is getting hot in here can someone turn the air conditioning on!")
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Offline Mr. Ron  
#17 Posted : 10 March 2023 21:25:40(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 311
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
It has been my experience that anything you do has to have a plan before building, whether it be a house or a model railroad. I know not everyone has the ability to draw to scale, but that is what is needed. In my case, I have been using Autocad software that enables me to produce a scale drawing of the layout. before the first piece of framework is ever cut. Doing it without a scale plan, is almost impossible to do. It can be done, but not without a lot of mid course changes. The plan will not turn out the way you imagine without a detailed plan. I suggest that you familiarize yourself with some basic drawing tools and create what you want to scale on paper before trying to build. If this is to be a fixed layout, one that will always occupy your available space or a layout that needs to be broken down into convenient sizes for moving will require software (scale drawing). That will always be the first step in any building project.
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Offline Toosmall  
#18 Posted : 14 March 2023 04:32:51(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 617
Location: Sydney
I agree, do a full set of plans for the layout. Then scale up to the actual building scale.

If you can't use software (I use Lightwave for 3d work), use paper at let's say 1:5 of the actual built scale.

You can plan all your RLs (relative levels), give the lowest point on you layout or slightly below an RL or 0.000 metres (that is you base RL). Work up from there (space out track gradients evenly by plotting RLs).

Once you have got all your tracks, heights, clearances, roads, footpaths, buildings, module joins and growies dimensions sorted, print to building scale, or at least transfer.

If you need a large set of compasses for drawing radius by hand. A long strip of cardboard with pivot point pushed through strip, nail will do, and pencil at X distance through other end of strip.

Old fashion typing carbon paper works a treat to trace drawing outlines to baseboard.

Every minute spent on drawings will save at least 10 minutes avoiding stuff-ups.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#19 Posted : 14 March 2023 13:02:05(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,688
Location: Hybrid Home
A German saying to be heeded (replace house by MRR layout):

"You’re building your first house for your enemy, your second one for your friend and your third one for yourself."

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Offline Mark5  
#20 Posted : 24 March 2023 20:40:53(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
AK, I like that much better than the first, second and third wife/marriage analogy.

https://www.quora.com/Wh...-third-for-companionship




Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
A German saying to be heeded (replace house by MRR layout):

"You’re building your first house for your enemy, your second one for your friend and your third one for yourself."



DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#21 Posted : 04 May 2023 04:57:23(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,870
Location: CA, USA
Hi friends! I thought I would give you all a status update!

After much back and forth, the room measurements are fixed at 12' x 18' 1", or 366cm x 551cm. I am quite pleased with this outcome!

Next steps will involve some thinking. As tempted as I am to cram a massive layout in, the balance of the room (layout vs workspace vs storage etc) is really the next decision to be taken.

One school of thought is to go through with a massive "U", and leave room somewhere in the middle or one end for workbench etc.

Another is to go small along one wall: a layout 366cm x 250 or less cm , leaving the other half of the room to workbench/storage, and dare I say this a smaller, separate narrow gauge layout for my HOm scale equipment. This is a great option, but requires some smart optimization to give train runs/lengths long enough for me, as well as to retain R2+ curves

A third is to "go long" against one wall, and do 550cm x 180cm or less, still in a U design, or a huge rectangle with access. The other side of the room takes the storage, bench etc. Or, dare I say this, future expansion remains possible...

So far the last option is winning in favor of long runs, longer station platforms, and retaining enough width for large curves etc.

But much thinking is to happen still... Stay tuned!

Edited by user 05 May 2023 19:07:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Carim  
#22 Posted : 04 May 2023 10:39:56(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 653
Location: London
Have you considered using shelf layouts at multiple levels? - Say one for H0 and another level for H0m. You could use shelves that run into a more conventional board just on one side of the room. Then have your workbench, etc, under the shelves.

Carim
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Offline blid  
#23 Posted : 04 May 2023 16:53:59(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
What I have done is using a track planning program with 3D capabillity. Not just for the track planning but for the room and what has to go into it. I have used WinTrack and Scarm. There is a cost and take some time but for me it has been worth it.
I started by drawing the floor, walls, doors, windows, pipes etc. and saved the empty room. Then copied it for the first version of the layout. I made object to go into the room. In your case workbench, chair(s), boards for the first version with the tracks.
I have tried all day to get a WinTrack snapshot of my, now dismantled, H0 layout uploaded to the forum. For some reason it never works. But a snapshot of my Bookshelf Z layout worked.
Z WinTrack.jpg
I have also used WinTrack for my outdoor OneGauge.
OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC Gold.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#24 Posted : 04 May 2023 17:34:30(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,870
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
Have you considered using shelf layouts at multiple levels? - Say one for H0 and another level for H0m. You could use shelves that run into a more conventional board just on one side of the room. Then have your workbench, etc, under the shelves.

Carim


Hi Carim,

A great solution indeed. I am thinking more centerpiece than shelf, but that certainly resolves the space-in-room issue!
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Offline PeFu  
#25 Posted : 05 May 2023 05:20:18(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,212
To feed your thoughts, I’d recommend this site:

https://www.layoutvision...waste-the-space-on-a-4x8

It certainly challenges our mind in layout planning….

ThumpUp
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline dickinsonj  
#26 Posted : 05 May 2023 12:59:58(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,696
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Great thread and a very helpful discussion. I am beginning to have a better understanding of how to balance out the tradeoffs, when no room would ever be large enough for my dream layout. BigGrin

I have my first ever dedicated train space coming in our new house, which will be finished in August. So I am going through the same process because it will be a multiuse space with room for my HO layout taking top priority. But it is my space to use as I want and getting the balance right is proving tougher than I expected.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline blid  
#27 Posted : 05 May 2023 14:47:30(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
What I didn’t say in my previous post may not be obvious to everyone. With the 3D you can take virtual walks into the room and see what it would look like before anything is built. Especially good if you have to share the space with others.
OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC Gold.
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Offline torle  
#28 Posted : 05 May 2023 23:43:37(UTC)
torle

United States   
Joined: 05/06/2004(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Atlanta, GA
Access to the layout is obviously very important. But what is often overlooked is access to the layout rooms lighting.
Having to replace a fluorescent tube in the rooms embedded ceiling fixture becomes quite challenging. Especially when the fixture is located right over a complicated part of the layout - the BW with its turntable, 16 spoke tracks and roundhouse, the coaling station with associated cranes and bins, etc, etc right below it.
BTW - you all know that the house over the layout room is there just to keep the rain out!! Or so I was told...
-=tom=-
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Offline Mark5  
#29 Posted : 06 May 2023 06:29:27(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Personally would love to see an HOm fully intergrated with an HO layout. Wiring and track can still be isolated. unless you want to use the "other 3 rail" with narrow and standard gauge on one right of way.

That said.... ease of use and long runs makes for best playability in my view.
I have decided in my current design iteration to do away with round house/turn table and have a long working shed with through track for greater movement and a clockwork of trains on a long station constantly coming and going. Some will be automated in rotation, others manually controlled.

Again all up to you but my governing principal is playability with movement.
If the yard is just for trains to sit and be displayed then ok, but keep in mind why you want to make each facet of the plan and what you want to see still or move.

Just some thoughts...
Cheers,
Mark

ps Old M-track Marklin turntable and Vollmer 3 bay round house for sale. ...

Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
....... leaving the other half of the room to workbench/storage, and dare I say this a smaller, separate narrow gauge layout for my HOm scale equipment. This is a great option, but requires some smart optimization to give train runs/lengths long enough for me, as well as to retain R2+ curves

..........

So far the last option is winning in favor of long runs, longer station platforms, and retaining enough width for large curves etc.!
................
.......


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline Mr. Ron  
#30 Posted : 24 June 2023 21:24:02(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 311
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave

Your layout will be determined by how much track and turnouts you have on hand. There are 2 ways to design a layout. First is drawing out a layout on paper (or computer) and the other is designing with what you have on hand. With a lot of track on hand, you try to use it all up, making the layout larger. That was the case with my layout. I bought a lot of used track off E-bay and designed my layout to fit the space I had available. After building a good size layout, I still had much track left over.
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#31 Posted : 07 November 2023 23:29:07(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,870
Location: CA, USA
Hi everyone, I thought I would give an update here. Current status is that the room itself is going to take forever, construction permits have been a complete nightmare to obtain. This is a project on its own, and quite frustrating, but it forces time for proper layout planning. Here is where I'm at:

- The 12 foot dimension still keeps me awake at night. As usual I'm trying to cram too many things in, and my "dream" scenario would be MUCH more comfortable at 12' 6". More on that later. But then again if it was 12' 6", I'd be saying "I need 13!" Flapper LOL

-I realized I have to finish the plan for the room interior, aisleways and similar first, and then work the precise trackplan to fit this "rough cut".


Back to layouts and track plans:

- The main layout will for sure be a Swiss "climb the mountain" affair, along the 18'/550cm rear wall. The treatment remains to be designed, but this is the plan. Dogbone shaped for now, very likely to grow into a "J" or a "U" on one side (PeFu's wonderful Andreasburg-bahn got me thinking!) Execution is no problem in the available space.

- How the HOm narrow gauge incorporates into all of this is the next challenge. It could meander somewhere along the main layout, it could form a small layout of its own which becomes aesthetically incorporated into the mix, or I can merely stick a loop with a siding somewhere and keep things very simple. I like option 2 and think have the space, plus it gives me a second layout to build once the first one has progressed ;)

- The DC parade lap around the wall is also easy in the available space. 12-18" of shelf layout down the 18' wall opposite the main layout, with a drop bridge for the entry door. It will disappear behind the main layout's mountains (via tunnel portals) to loop the room. Based on the New York Central's Hudson River line, which gives an excuse to do more than 2 tracks of parade mainline if I like- the prototype was 4! One loop to be Marklin K track in order to run analogue AC, programming/testing loop of AC, or DC.

As much as it pains me, I suspect one of the 3 items above will need to go, or at least scale back considerably, to make this all work... That will likely need to be the HOm

Some room sketches to follow as I play with benchwork fitment...
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Offline PeFu  
#32 Posted : 08 November 2023 06:25:56(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,212
Great fun to be in the planning phase! Maybe you need a K track dogbone on which you could run 3-rail and 2-rail, both analogue (AC and DC) as well as digital? Ofcourse, not at the same time… The trains could share a hidden station, by securing power on/off on the individual staging tracks. The setup will require some ”serious” power switching to avoid disasters. I have e.g. a single two-pole switch controlling my programming track as ”CS2” or ”ESU Lokprogrammer” or ”off”.

Re. your H0m tracks, couldn’t it be interesting to have a combined H0/H0m station near the top H0 reversing loop? Such as Göschenen, from where tha narrow gauge trains climb even higher?

Smile
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline marklinist5999  
#33 Posted : 08 November 2023 13:39:17(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,175
Location: Michigan, Troy
That's what I did. Original 4x8 foot dc 2 rail oval, then bridged over with ac 3 rail descending to grade and both go trhough a doble track tunnel under mountain. 3 rail run goes into a station, and ovals at grade. 3 rail ascends back up behind the station and onto the bridge over to the new 4x8 side which has an intermodal yard, second town, and steel mill.
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#34 Posted : 08 November 2023 19:18:18(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,870
Location: CA, USA
Thanks guys!

I'm a stickler for simplicity, and minimizing potential problems. If I do the one oval of K track, that would be with the intention of DC/AC programming and analogue - effectively my simple test bench incorporated into the layout. No turnouts, signaling or otherwise to keep it simple.

PeFu - we think alike! A loose interpretation of Goschenen is on my mind if the two scales coexist on the main wall/layout. "Loose" being the key word as I run RhB and the prototype is a different railroad ;) An alternate idea if I were to do a "J" or "G" shape is using the smaller peninsula of the layout to incorporate the HOm from an HO scale base station.

Another big decision to take, that will greatly influence planning: Continuous run (single dogbone presented as a double track main) or a genuine double track mainline on two independent sets of trackage

I want and need to rely on block signaling - but not full automation - so trains don't crash into one another. Effective block signaling on one "dogbone" mainline run (that looks doubletrack but is single in reality) means one error and the whole layout is down. Also a desire for "operations" means no trains can just cruise on a second mainline while the first mainline serves/accomodates switching etc...

So a true doubletrack solution is better, but a serious space and planning headache. One very good option to get the best of both worlds would be the single dogbone option, but adding a "cutoff" (or reverse loop) at each level of the layout/mountain, forcing a train to circulate at that level so I can switch on the other levels simultaneously.

Decisions! But indeed details of the benchwork and the curves are going to determine a lot here- time to get the compass out...






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Offline Alsterstreek  
#35 Posted : 09 November 2023 13:26:04(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,688
Location: Hybrid Home
Yes these annoying decisions... That's why I admitted that my attention span is too short for the layout-of-a-lifetime approach. Instead I am living with an eternal testbed without nailing down any track. C track is ideal for such an elevated Teppichbahning lifestyle.
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