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Offline MarcelV  
#1 Posted : 02 November 2022 23:14:57(UTC)
MarcelV

United States   
Joined: 01/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 54
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Hi everyone! I have a question and hopefully someone can offer some help. I have a set of passenger wagons from Roco (74428-74431). I had them laying around but never ran them till today. They standard come with DC wheel sets and I replaced them with the AC wheel sets that Roco listed on their website. I also had to replace a coupler with a Marklin one because they have those strange Roco couplers. That’s ok between the cars themselves and I left those in place But the one coupler connecting to a Marklin loc, I did replace.

If I run them on an oval both with 24130 and 24230’s, they run fine. They also run fine on 24611/24612 turnouts. When I run them across a double slip switch going straight, no problems at all. But as soon as I set those to curved, the passenger wagons derail. I switched out the order of the consist but that didn’t make any difference. I also replaced the AC wheel sets with the DC ones back in place to test out, but that doesn’t make any difference either

Does anyone have an idea what step to take next? I hope I can make them work somehow…

All my Marklin stock runs fine over them, straight and curved so it’s not the switch.

Thanks in advance for the suggestions

Marcel

Using c-track by the way

Edited by user 03 November 2022 04:56:02(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 02 November 2022 23:30:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
How many 24624 do you have? Do you get the derailing on all of them?

If only the first or second coach derail, then maybe the Märklin coupler is the problem. But then the derailing should also occur on other tracks like 24130.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Copenhagen  
#3 Posted : 02 November 2022 23:32:13(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 369
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I would try and find out exactly what happens when the derailment happens to find out exactly what causes the problem.
Are the bogies moving freely... are the couplers moving freely... is something getting snagged somewhere? And try all combinations, one car, two cars, back and forth. Do it by hand without the locomotive pushing or pulling. Also check that there isn't something wrong with the slip.

Usually it's because the wheel spacing is too big, so if it's DC wheels they can be adjusted. This isn't possible with AC wheels.
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Offline owidgie  
#4 Posted : 02 November 2022 23:33:23(UTC)
owidgie

United States   
Joined: 03/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 149
The problem is the box, it says "ROCO" on it! LOL

I crack me up!!

Rick
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Offline MarcelV  
#5 Posted : 03 November 2022 00:31:36(UTC)
MarcelV

United States   
Joined: 01/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 54
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
How many 24624 do you have? Do you get the derailing on all of them?

If only the first or second coach derail, then maybe the Märklin coupler is the problem. But then the derailing should also occur on other tracks like 24130.


I have 3 of them but only 1 is currently installed. Will switch that one out and see what happens.


Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
I would try and find out exactly what happens when the derailment happens to find out exactly what causes the problem.
Are the bogies moving freely... are the couplers moving freely... is something getting snagged somewhere? And try all combinations, one car, two cars, back and forth. Do it by hand without the locomotive pushing or pulling. Also check that there isn't something wrong with the slip.

Usually it's because the wheel spacing is too big, so if it's DC wheels they can be adjusted. This isn't possible with AC wheels.


It happens with both AC and DC wheel sets. But I will run them without the loc manually through the switch and see if that gives me any insights. It is always the first car behind the loc so it might be that coupler because if I put that coupler on the different car, it derails that one. The cars following the first car run fine through it
Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 03 November 2022 00:56:30(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
The problem is likely that the coupling on the locomotive is impacting on the buffer of the leading coach/car. This causes the car to lift and consequently to derail.
My recommendation would be to use a regular loop coupling on the leading coach (locomotive side) or if the Maerklin loco has a NEM socket and close coupling head, to replace the Maerklin 7203 with one of Roco's Universal Couplers. You can do the same on the leading coach.

One in-house solution may be en route, as Maerklin releases new close couplers, which are designed to avoid contact with the buffers.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline MarcelV  
#7 Posted : 03 November 2022 01:40:39(UTC)
MarcelV

United States   
Joined: 01/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 54
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
It’s for sure the coupler. It’s somehow getting stuck on the double slip switch when it’s thrown in the curved position. I switched out the 24624 and that didn’t help. So, it’s not the switch. Not sure how to solve it but it’s easy to reproduce over and over when uncoupled from the loc. When I switch out to the original Roco coupler it has no problem with the switch when I push it through manually. But as soon as I use a Marklin (or even non Marklin coupler) it’s derailing. I guess I will wait for the couplers that Marklin will launch and see if that will help.

Thanks everyone for the input. Didn’t solve it but got to the root cause!
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Offline franciscohg  
#8 Posted : 03 November 2022 02:01:52(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Hello
Also check the height of the NEM pocket. It is not standard and may cause troubles when you Mix différent Brand of rolling stock.
Roco do offer some universal couplers with the possibility of adjusting thé coupler height
They work well
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline MarcelV  
#9 Posted : 03 November 2022 02:27:36(UTC)
MarcelV

United States   
Joined: 01/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 54
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Roco do offer some universal couplers with the possibility of adjusting thé coupler height
They work well

Are you referring to Roco item number 40396? Just so I know which one to order to try out. The couplers on the cars are quite lower as the one on the Marklin locomotive. When I switched out the coupler on the loc to one of those on the Roco cars, the issue was resolved. But I run that loc with different consists (just starting out and don’t have lots of loc’s laying around) so I can’t just keep it this way. But at least I now know all cars and the 24624’s are in good shape.
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Offline franciscohg  
#10 Posted : 03 November 2022 04:19:09(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Yes. You can put it on the car that hook to the locomotive. It slightly increase the distance between the both, but they work well. I have solved many déraillement issues with non marklin car and locos this way.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 03 November 2022 08:45:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MarcelV Go to Quoted Post
It’s for sure the coupler. It’s somehow getting stuck on the double slip switch when it’s thrown in the curved position.
That's why Märklin invented the new #72000 couplers.
There are a few solutions:
  1. Keep the Märklin coupler on the loco, but remove the metal loop, and install a Roco Universal coupler on the coach
  2. Use the new 72000 coupler on the loco and the coach
  3. Use Roco Universal couplers for the loco and the coach


Life is complicated because the old Märklin 7203 couplers are not NEM compatible.

See also:
http://blog.mailez.de/eb...-couplers-for-h0-models/

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
My recommendation would be to use a regular loop coupling on the leading coach (locomotive side) [...]
I cannot recommend using loop and hook couplers on rolling stock with guiding mechanism. With pushed trains or on downhill slopes you can get into serious trouble with derailing trains.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 03 November 2022 08:47:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: owidgie Go to Quoted Post
The problem is the box, it says "ROCO" on it! LOL

Life is complicated because the old Märklin 7203 couplers are not NEM compatible.
The problem is the loco box, it says "Märklin" on it!!! Flapper

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Jay
Offline marklinist5999  
#13 Posted : 03 November 2022 12:16:05(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,075
Location: Michigan, Troy
All the above and; sometimes the metal loops bend just a bit, and bind, or won't stay coupled. Or the bottom trip lever bends and catches on the other, and or also binds.
On a locomotive witha guide mcehanism coupler pocket, or one which has a further set back coupler,I have also tried coupling a Roco loop coupler with a Markln, and depending on the train, number of cars, and grdients it also works. The Roco coupler makes a bit further buffer gap.
Offline Mark5  
#14 Posted : 03 November 2022 15:36:55(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MarcelV Go to Quoted Post
It’s for sure the coupler. It’s somehow getting stuck on the double slip switch when it’s thrown in the curved position.
That's why Märklin invented the new #72000 couplers.
[.......]
There are a few solutions:
[list=1]
  • Keep the Märklin coupler on the loco, but remove the metal loop, and install a Roco Universal coupler on the coach
    [.........]

    See also:
    http://blog.mailez.de/eb...-couplers-for-h0-models/


  • Thanks for posting the blog link Tom. That is handy.
    Can someone show me an image of a coupler with the "removed metal loop" and how it lines up?

    The blog has an image from the side and I am not exactly sure how and where the part is detached from.

    I am also wondering if many users simply do not run older Marklin cars with no NEM pockets and Relex couplers. Do these present problems on your layouts, other than with push-pull trains?
    DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
    In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
    Offline H0  
    #15 Posted : 03 November 2022 17:06:50(UTC)
    H0


    Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
    Posts: 15,254
    Location: DE-NW
    Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
    The blog has an image from the side and I am not exactly sure how and where the part is detached from.

    Two small plastic pins hold the metal part. You can easily remove it with a finger nail or a small screw driver. Bend it a little bit to get it off the pins.
    coupler02!.jpg

    Regards
    Tom
    ---
    "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
    UserPostedImage
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    Offline David Dewar  
    #16 Posted : 03 November 2022 17:17:07(UTC)
    David Dewar

    Scotland   
    Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
    Posts: 7,333
    Location: Scotland
    I have used the Marklin bar type coupler used for their coach lighting. Has problems with some Brawa coaches and this solves the derailing. However makes uncoupling more difficult. Roco also had problems but changing the wheel sets solved that.
    Anything from Marklin runs fine and Piko are not bad. I like some Roco coaches and most run OK although lighting is another matter.
    Very useful link from Tom. Looking at that Roco universal couplers look to be the best for running qualities.
    Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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    Offline costing  
    #17 Posted : 03 November 2022 20:47:15(UTC)
    costing

    Switzerland   
    Joined: 20/08/2018(UTC)
    Posts: 157
    Location: Geneve, Geneva
    In my experience is the guards that need to be bent a bit towards the outside rails. Check out the picture in my post here : https://www.marklin-user...s--on-C-track#post647220
    JMRI on RPi & DCC++ / C-track / Marklin, Roco, ESU, Bemo locos / Christmas car collector
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    Offline H0  
    #18 Posted : 04 November 2022 08:49:09(UTC)
    H0


    Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
    Posts: 15,254
    Location: DE-NW
    Originally Posted by: costing Go to Quoted Post
    In my experience is the guards that need to be bent a bit towards the outside rails.
    The guard rails on the 24624 look as if they cannot be bent.
    Anyway, this will not help if the root cause are couplers colliding with buffers.
    This can be the solution if the coaches still derail with AC wheelsets and low-profile couplers.

    Regards
    Tom
    ---
    "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
    UserPostedImage
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    Offline marklinist5999  
    #19 Posted : 05 November 2022 13:22:09(UTC)
    marklinist5999

    United States   
    Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
    Posts: 3,075
    Location: Michigan, Troy
    The frog guide problem can be amended by cementing a thin strip of trimmed plastruct sheet to against it to narrow the gap between the wheels and rail. Thinner than .030 inch.
    Offline MarcelV  
    #20 Posted : 24 November 2022 22:34:57(UTC)
    MarcelV

    United States   
    Joined: 01/12/2018(UTC)
    Posts: 54
    Location: Louisville, Kentucky
    Just to provide resolution to my initial question so it might benefit others in the future. As fransiscohg suggested, I ordered the 40396 couplers. I installed one between the first Roco coach and the Marklin loc and it solved the issue. Thanks everyone for the suggestions! Glad it is working now without any more derailing issues.

    Edited by user 25 November 2022 05:32:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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    Offline mike c  
    #21 Posted : 25 November 2022 01:54:29(UTC)
    mike c

    Canada   
    Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
    Posts: 7,880
    Location: Montreal, QC
    You don't need the 40396 adjustable height coupler. The 40395 Universal coupler has a shaft that is 1mm longer than the Maerklin 7203. This additional space will ensure that the coupler clears the buffers and operates smoothly. I have been using the Roco 40395 as standard equipment with all of my coaches from Liliput, LS Models, ACME, Heris and others because the extra mm ensures safe operation. As far as my Roco coaches, when I have noted an issue with the buffers, I have swapped out the Maerklin 7203 for the 40395 and have not experienced any further issues.

    For push-pull trains, I decided to use the Fleischmann Profi-Coupling. I find that it is more stable when being pushed than the others.

    Regards

    Mike C
    Offline Coppas  
    #22 Posted : 25 November 2022 03:21:35(UTC)
    Coppas

    Sweden   
    Joined: 18/11/2022(UTC)
    Posts: 4
    Location: Stockholm
    Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
    For push-pull trains, I decided to use the Fleischmann Profi-Coupling. I find that it is more stable when being pushed than the others.

    I’ll second that, but just a minor advice when using Fleischmann Profi-couplers on Märklin tracks, or any other track system with centre studs or a centre third power rail for that matter, is to use the Fleischmann # 6514 coupler instead of the regular # 6515.

    The # 6514 is a version developed for use on rack track (with rack and pinion models) and has a shorter uncoupling pin underneath, thus the risk for the pin to interfere with any centre supply system is lesser.

    // Nic
    »Quia ursus pusilli ingenii sum verba difficilia fastidio«

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    Offline franciscohg  
    #23 Posted : 25 November 2022 03:31:53(UTC)
    franciscohg

    Chile   
    Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
    Posts: 3,266
    Location: Patagonia
    Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
    You don't need the 40396 adjustable height coupler. The 40395 Universal coupler has a shaft that is 1mm longer than the Maerklin 7203. This additional space will ensure that the coupler clears the buffers and operates smoothly. I have been using the Roco 40395 as standard equipment with all of my coaches from Liliput, LS Models, ACME, Heris and others because the extra mm ensures safe operation. As far as my Roco coaches, when I have noted an issue with the buffers, I have swapped out the Maerklin 7203 for the 40395 and have not experienced any further issues.


    Mike C


    I almost agree 100%. Almost all the times the 40395 works well, but in some trains the derailment persists, problem was solved using the 40396
    Regards


    UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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    H0
    Offline H0  
    #24 Posted : 25 November 2022 11:28:22(UTC)
    H0


    Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
    Posts: 15,254
    Location: DE-NW
    Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
    Almost all the times the 40395 works well, but in some trains the derailment persists, problem was solved using the 40396
    In my experience the height of the Märklin coupler is the main issue and the Roco universal coupler 40397/40395 solves this issue for me - for all my coaches and freight cars.

    In rare cases the buffer distance is a problem and the height-adjustable Roco universal coupler can ease this problem. This only happens for rolling stock with design flaws. So far I used this coupler only with Piko Hobby locos that have such a design flaw.

    Regards
    Tom
    ---
    "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
    UserPostedImage
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