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Offline tomdakl  
#1 Posted : 17 February 2021 08:05:44(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Titirangi
Dear All,

I am running my small layout with a CS3 and RocRail with about 10 m83/84 decoders and a few S88 feedback decoders.
Usually things are fine, but sometimes disaster strikes, typically in the form a brief short circuit (pickup shoe against high speed turnout, car derails, ...).

During that short-circuit I noticed a number of times that digital instruction (switch turnout, signal set, engine speed,..) get lost.
As a consequence I then tend to have a ghost train or a train stuck at a signal that RocRail thinks is green, but due to the lost command remained red.
This in my assessment is caused by the track carrying the commands for the decoders - which don't get there due to the short.

To increase the resilience of the layout I am currently thinking about putting the whole m83/84 control inputs onto a seperate feed, which isolates the commands from the track. Sure, that does not fix commands to the engines, but at least would keep the turnouts and signals correct.

Did anybody go down this path? Is it sufficient/advisable to maybe connect the m83/84s to the programming track? Should I invest in a booster just for the digital commands to the m83/84 decoders (feels like overkill, but would definitely remedy the matter )?

I would be grateful if anybody has had experience in this matter and could share their insights or point me to similar discussions.

MfG
Thomas
Offline siroljuk  
#2 Posted : 17 February 2021 08:55:34(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 374
Hello!

Take this post:

https://www.marklin-user...h-CS3Plus-Track-Protocol

I had problems like You have few Years ago and main reason for all my problems were old terminal 60125 ( the grey one).

It took many days to find reason for those odd behaviors, and after I ordered and got new BLACK terminal all problems vanished.

That grey device was not completely broken and I newer got to know what component inside exactly had malfunction.

Terminal is very simple device It have only few components inside but if it don't function exactly right,
it shuffles the control protocol randomly and dramatically.

I hope this will help You

Regards

Jukka
Offline rbw993  
#3 Posted : 17 February 2021 16:41:45(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 821
Hi Thomas,
Jukka's reply assumes you have a 60125 in your device network. I don't see where you said that you did. However I also experienced the problem he talked about and replacement with a 60145 fixed it.

I also have all tracks and M83 decoders controlled by separate boosters. My CS3 and auxiliary CS2 do not power anything directly except for the programming track. From your description you could isolate things by adding one booster for track power and one for M83/M84 power.

Regards,
Roger
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Offline Crazy Harry  
#4 Posted : 17 February 2021 17:16:08(UTC)
Crazy Harry

Canada   
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 401
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by: tomdakl Go to Quoted Post

To increase the resilience of the layout I am currently thinking about putting the whole m83/84 control inputs onto a seperate feed, which isolates the commands from the track. Sure, that does not fix commands to the engines, but at least would keep the turnouts and signals correct.
Thomas


Are all of your m83/84 connected together by the multipin connectors on the side? If so you could consider powering them with a separate power supply like the 66360(or whatever is required in NZ) with or without the universal power supply 60822 in between (there are separate posts on this component's benefit or not). This option is describe in the decoder manuals.

Cheers,

Harold.
Offline tomdakl  
#5 Posted : 17 February 2021 18:38:31(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Titirangi
Thanks for the responses. Here is a bit more detail and rbw993 my option 2 below looks like what you are talking about?

Current.png

Option 1.png

Option 2.png


I am really wondering if the programming track is sufficient for this purpose and/or if there are "side effects" when I use that in an "Option 1" scenario.

Notes:
  • Diagrams omit ground wiring and the switches I have to isolate the tracks. Not shown for simplicity
  • In option 2 an additional booster (+terminal) makes sense. Not show for simplicity.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 17 February 2021 19:37:31(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,501
Location: Paris, France
Hi Tom
I think having a separate power line to all (switch & signal) decoders is better:
* you can use analogue locos while still control your switches
* sometimes a switch decoder may have an issue with the init at start, thus causing an over-current.
* use the programming track IMO is not a good idea (because you may need to program locos, because the power is limited while solenoids work better with powerful feed)

Note: the old 6083 are nice but dangerous: they rely on an order coming from the CS to stop the current (as long as you push the "button" the solenoid remains activated). If the 6083 misses the stop order, then the solenoid remains activated until its burns and then the driving transistor burns also.
This is not supposed to happen but it does as many of us modify the end switches on the switch motors

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline marklinist5999  
#7 Posted : 17 February 2021 21:06:03(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 463
Location: Michigan, Troy
The occasional short is boind to occur. A slightly crooked shoe (slider), or a wheel derailing. Depending on the layout size, for many of us, track power from the CS3 is adiquate to operate up to 4 M83 decoders. I saw the Digital Webinar which covered this 2 or 3 ones prior. They are on youtube if you've deleted the e mail links. Curtis and Rick strongly reccomended using the auxiliary power supply between the conventional transformer and the M83 or M84's. Using a booster as a power supply wan't mentioned. You can also e mail them and ask. The e mail address is posted on the US Marklin website.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 17 February 2021 22:07:37(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,501
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
track power from the CS3 is adequate to operate up to 4 M83 decoders.

With all due respect I disagree. Here is why:
* each 60832 decoder draws only approx. 5 mA (idle current) so a 3 A CS3 can power a large number of those decoders
* the CS3 (or CS2 or MS2) drives only one solenoid output at a time even when a full route is started (very approx. 1 A) even if there are a large number of decoders

Note: my layout drives more than 100 solenoid devices (relays switches, servos) so the equivalent of 25 60832) and with 32 sound locos, illuminated coaches, switch lanterns, the total idle current (no train moving but all illuminated with sound) is 2.7 A and the total current draw rises to 3.5 A when in operation (My CS3 is powered by a 100W DC power unit (60101) and NO booster.
Here is my train in operation

Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline marklinist5999  
#9 Posted : 17 February 2021 22:41:28(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 463
Location: Michigan, Troy
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
track power from the CS3 is adequate to operate up to 4 M83 decoders.

With all due respect I disagree. Here is why:
* each 60832 decoder draws only approx. 5 mA (idle current) so a 3 A CS3 can power a large number of those decoders
* the CS3 (or CS2 or MS2) drives only one solenoid output at a time even when a full route is started (very approx. 1 A) even if there are a large number of decoders

Note: my layout drives more than 100 solenoid devices (relays switches, servos) so the equivalent of 25 60832) and with 32 sound locos, illuminated coaches, switch lanterns, the total idle current (no train moving but all illuminated with sound) is 2.7 A and the total current draw rises to 3.5 A when in operation (My CS3 is powered by a 100W DC power unit (60101) and NO booster.
Here is my train in operation

Cheers
Jean

Your layout is beautiful and impressive! I guess you wouldn't need a booster other than that in the CS3, especially with a 100w power pack. I should have elaborated that was one example of someone I kow of using. I would likely only employ 8 turnouts, one or two signals max. at least at first. I would only run tw or three max. trains at once. I have the 60045 120 volt power pack. I have the 6 car Rheinfel/Helvetia conventioanally lit set, ICE3 37780 5 unit, etc. Also a Goliath crane. I will use a seperate 12/16 volt ac/d.c.transformer for l.e.d. building/street lighting, Hexenloch mill, Stuttgart furnsehturm, Mercedes dealership turntables, with the Just plug sytem.

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Offline rbw993  
#10 Posted : 18 February 2021 01:04:03(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 821
The reason I set up my device network that way I did is to isolate and protect the most valuable (or expensive) components from direct shorts or other current/voltage irregularities.

Regards,
Roger
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Offline Henrik Schütz  
#11 Posted : 20 February 2021 15:48:45(UTC)
Henrik Schütz

Sweden   
Joined: 04/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Stockholms Lan, Stockholm
I have one booster for the m83 and m84 decoders, they have auxillary power supply with märklin versorgunseinheit.

Another booster is connected to the track, for driving the trains.

Nothing is connected to the CS3.

The idea is to protect the CS3, a shortcut blew the "endstufe" the CS3 worked perfectly normal but no power to the trains.

It took märklin one year to fix it, first they sent it back after six months stating it was nothing wrong, it wad.... after another six months the replaced the broken part, which i had told them was broken when i handed in the cs3 for repair.

Its not easy to love Märklin some times.

Regards

Henrik Schütz

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Henrik Schütz
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