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Offline David Dewar  
#1 Posted : 12 February 2021 13:09:46(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,034
Location: Scotland
Thinking of buying Roco 79404 Swiss RE 430. Not had a Roco loco previously. Are they OK with C track and run well. Maybe somebody has this or similar model.
Thanks for any info

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline rbw993  
#2 Posted : 12 February 2021 13:39:26(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 843
David,
I have had generally good luck with them with one exception that was documented in a post. I ordered a model of an SBB Re 6/6 from Germany, Huenerbein I think, and it came with DC wheel sets which caused it to short on my C and K track slim turnouts. Replacement with AC wheel sets fixed the problem and it runs beautifully now.

Roger
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Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 12 February 2021 16:53:48(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,337
Location: Montreal, QC
I recently acquired a Re 430, but it took a complicated road.
I recently responded to a post in another forum by a member who was looking for a 63847.2 Re 4/4III 11350. I happened to have a spare one, as I had originally commissioned a conversion of a 69845 into the 11350 at a well known Swiss small production firm. When Roco announced the set, we agreed that they would simply send me one of those rather than working on the locomotive I had sent in. At the same time, I had recently returned the 69736 Re 6/6 as I was not satisfied with the light shining through the shell and I decided to try to obtain the Re 6/6 from the set after I was informed that there was no light issue with that model. I ended up finding a good price for the set and that was how I ended up with two Re 4/4III 11350.

Back to recent events, I agreed to send that person a DC frame with the shell of the 11350 and in return, agreed that a 71404 would be sent to me.
I received the model about two weeks ago. The first thing I noticed is that the model, unlike all of the previous Re 4/4 models, is labelled "Made in Vietnam' and not "Made in Romania" or "Made in the EU".

I set the shell of the 11364 on the chassis of a spare 79255 AC Re 4/4II (Romania one) that I had and it runs and looks very nice. The only thing that remains to do is to swap the bogie parts so that they have the correct appearance as per prototype.

The DC version of the Re 430 was affected by some issue which prompted a delay in delivery. The AC version was not affected by the delay.
There appears to be some kind of modification to the edges of the model (frame) around the LED panels for the headlights, suggesting either a fit or light issue.

I cannot for certain state that this was related to the issue/delay. I can say that my model (shell) fits perfectly on the chassis for the older model.

That said, with the exception of the Porrentruy and Cham models, I have all of the Roco Re 4/4II/III and am very happy with the models.

Here is a video of my 79255 pulling a Maerklin SBB-FS consist:
https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?a=58801&b=1

Regards

Mike C
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Offline tomdakl  
#4 Posted : 13 January 2022 04:13:21(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Titirangi
Hi David,

did you ever get the Roco Re 430?
I just got my 79404 today. Overall good looking :-)

After programming it, I however struck an issue while calibrating/"einmessen" the model. It "slowed down" or stopped on some places on the layout.
Made no sense, investigated, found that the common denominator of the spots where it slowed down is that they are all contact tracks.
Next step I found that the slowing down depended on the way the engine sits on the tracks.

And pulling out my multi-meter measured that
- all wheels on the right hand side are electrically connected with each other, and
- all wheels on the left hand side are, but
- there is no electrical connection between the left and right hand side wheels.

Perfectly appropriate for 2 rail/DC but useless from an AC perspective, particluarly when one uses S88 contact tracks.

I'm on the point of soldering a bridge between the ground contacts of the PCB to connect left and right.

Did you, or anybody experience something similar?

For completeness: I got a few other Roco AC engines and they are all fine and none of them showed this behaviour.

Any feedback welcomed,
Thomas

Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 13 January 2022 05:01:00(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,337
Location: Montreal, QC
I have noted on recent locomotives that there seem to be a greater number of contact issues. I have not investigated the models in depth.
One thing that I did note is that there is a tendency to use wheel contacts whereas older models were more likely to have axle contacts and that the wheel contacts tend to be smaller and have a reduced contact profile compared to older models.
The fact that you suggest that your 79404 has insulated wheels suggest that the wheelsets are DC (not AC) as AC wheelsets would normally be a single piece and would bridge the two rails.
I would check the model to see how the return contacts are designed/installed. On the DC model, each bogie has a contact on one side, one for the left rail and one for the right rail. On older AC models, one bogie would have the AC slider and the other bogie would have the return contacts (wheels). To save money, a company might decide to keep the DC wheel contacts but to add the slider, which would allow them to use the same parts for the wheels and contacts for all versions. The 2 return contact leads would then be merged at or on the PC board.

The DC model has 4 powered axles, where, AFAIR the AC model has 3 powered axles. One option would be to ensure that the 4th axle (not powered) is a non-insulated axle, which would bridge the two rails together for purpose of contact tracks, etc.

My preoccupation here would more be that lateral movement of a locomotive bogie in such a setup could cause the locomotive to have a weak contact or to stall if said motion reduces the contact between the wheel used for return contact and the rail, as the opposite wheel would not serve to maintain contact in such an instance.

I will be doing some more investigation and will be following this topic with interest.

I have seen similar issues with a few Roco models (Re 4/4II, Re 6/6, BLS Re 4/4 and BR 193/Re 475) as well as with at least one recent Maerklin model.
I also want to figure out whether this issue is more prevalent when operating using DC power (MS2/CS) rather than classic Marklin Motorola or Analog AC.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 13 January 2022 05:29:59(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,859
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: tomdakl Go to Quoted Post
Hi David,

did you ever get the Roco Re 430?
I just got my 79404 today. Overall good looking :-)

After programming it, I however struck an issue while calibrating/"einmessen" the model. It "slowed down" or stopped on some places on the layout.
Made no sense, investigated, found that the common denominator of the spots where it slowed down is that they are all contact tracks.
Next step I found that the slowing down depended on the way the engine sits on the tracks.

And pulling out my multi-meter measured that
- all wheels on the right hand side are electrically connected with each other, and
- all wheels on the left hand side are, but
- there is no electrical connection between the left and right hand side wheels.

Perfectly appropriate for 2 rail/DC but useless from an AC perspective, particluarly when one uses S88 contact tracks.

I'm on the point of soldering a bridge between the ground contacts of the PCB to connect left and right.

Did you, or anybody experience something similar?

For completeness: I got a few other Roco AC engines and they are all fine and none of them showed this behaviour.

Any feedback welcomed,
Thomas



to run my purchased DC locos, all I have to do is connect the 2 wires from each side of the wheels and solder them to the ground soldering pad and your problem is solved, you don't have to touch the PCB.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 13 January 2022 05:31:42(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,859
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Dave, I haven't had any problem with Roco locos, as most of mine are DC and some AC, in either case: no problems

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline tomdakl  
#8 Posted : 13 January 2022 08:23:35(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Titirangi
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
I have noted on recent locomotives that there seem to be a greater number of contact issues. I have not investigated the models in depth.
One thing that I did note is that there is a tendency to use wheel contacts whereas older models were more likely to have axle contacts and that the wheel contacts tend to be smaller and have a reduced contact profile compared to older models.
The fact that you suggest that your 79404 has insulated wheels suggest that the wheelsets are DC (not AC) as AC wheelsets would normally be a single piece and would bridge the two rails.
I would check the model to see how the return contacts are designed/installed. On the DC model, each bogie has a contact on one side, one for the left rail and one for the right rail. On older AC models, one bogie would have the AC slider and the other bogie would have the return contacts (wheels). To save money, a company might decide to keep the DC wheel contacts but to add the slider, which would allow them to use the same parts for the wheels and contacts for all versions. The 2 return contact leads would then be merged at or on the PC board.

....

Regards

Mike C


Thanks Mike C, that is what sanity would suggest :-)
They are definitely wheel contacts, not axle ones.
Wheel_contacts.jpeg

Including one for the traction tyres / Haftreifen. I am not going to think about that.

Each bogie brings a black ground cable up to the PCB (4x) where they are soldered on ok.
The two on the left connect with each other, the two on the right do, but no connection between left and right.

Here is what it looks like when the engine drives on a contact track.
RocoRe430stopsOnContactTrackOneWay.mov (2,482kb) downloaded 8 time(s).

and if I physically rotate it 180º, everything is fine.
RocoRe430DoesNotStopOnContactTrack.mov (2,773kb) downloaded 6 time(s).

This suggests that if the "side" of the engine which feeds the motor is on the contact track, things flicker, then stop :-)

I hope this is only my individual model and not that the Roco QA missed contact tracks altogether. Everything works fine on "normal" tacks, where they connect the left and the right.

I'll monitor this thread for a bit longer and see if there are any more experiences or suggestions, but reaching for the soldering iron looks very tempting right now.

Cheers, Thomas
Offline David Dewar  
#9 Posted : 13 January 2022 12:24:31(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,034
Location: Scotland
I decided not to go for the Roco model and looking at the above maybe the right choice. I have found that Marklin. and Piko run fine but one problem with a Brawa. Perhaps those manufacturing AC versions of their models should take more care if they wish to sell to us three rail folk. We should not have to modify a model to get it to run properly.
Hope Thomas gets the Roco running as it should.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Donb  
#10 Posted : 13 January 2022 19:08:03(UTC)
Donb

Canada   
Joined: 03/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 198
Location: Fraser Valley
Hi Dave,

I have the Roco 79404, it is a terrific model, but initially there was a problem.
The factory had set it up for neither two rail or 3 rail on the PCB, but luckily it did have the slider installed.
I had to solder on the PCB the 3 Rail solder jumper.
Easily done, it seems all manufacturers are having quality issues during the pandemic.

PXL_20211217_012620189.jpg
Best Regards,
Don
___________________________________________________________________________________
ECoS , C track and Z scale
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Offline tomdakl  
#11 Posted : 13 January 2022 22:53:49(UTC)
tomdakl

New Zealand   
Joined: 30/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: Titirangi
Dear Don,

Snap! Same problem here. I soldered/bridged the 3L connector on the PCB.
Now the wheels from both sides are electrically connected and the contact tracks are fine.

And I agree, it is a nice model.

Thank you,
Thomas
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