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Offline QQQ1970  
#1 Posted : 25 November 2020 02:48:52(UTC)
QQQ1970

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Location: Ontario, Toronto
Can I use CS2 as master control with CS3 as slave?
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 25 November 2020 04:56:38(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Firstly, you need the CS3+ if you want to use a CS3 as a slave as that's the only device with the required input - CS3 / 60226 doesn't have the required input. If you don't have a CS3+ then the question is a moot point.

But I don't think a CS3 will work as a slave to a CS2 as the CS3 is the later device.
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 25 November 2020 08:35:04(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Firstly, you need the CS3+ if you want to use a CS3 as a slave as that's the only device with the required input - CS3 / 60226 doesn't have the required input.
Is that the case? The CAN bus is bi-directional and I don't think there is an input and an output.

According to Märklin Magazine you can combine a 60226 with a 60215. For a 60213 they write that a CS3+ 60216 was required (but I think this is only required if you want to use the booster of the 60213 without limitations).

But I think the CS3 will have to be the Master and the CS2 the slave. But maybe it also works the other way around.

Source (in German, of course - see page "25", last page in the PDF):
https://www.maerklin.de/...n_Digital_MM_2016_03.pdf
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#4 Posted : 25 November 2020 15:48:04(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Firstly, you need the CS3+ if you want to use a CS3 as a slave as that's the only device with the required input - CS3 / 60226 doesn't have the required input.
Is that the case? The CAN bus is bi-directional and I don't think there is an input and an output.


I believe that is the case. You can't link two 60226's together, the 2nd and subsequent CS3's has to be a 60216 because the 60216 has the proper connector for the 60123 cable. 60226 doesn't have it. 60226 can act as a master in this scenario.

Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
According to Märklin Magazine you can combine a 60226 with a 60215. For a 60213 they write that a CS3+ 60216 was required (but I think this is only required if you want to use the booster of the 60213 without limitations).


Yes, you can do that because all CS2's have the proper connector for the 60123 cable. You can combine 60226 CS3 with a 60213 and early versions of 60214 CS2's, providing you do NOT use both the CS2 and 60226 CS3 boosters, as neither those versions of the CS2 or the 60226 have galvanic isolation, and doing so breaks the rules around only using one device with no galvanic isolation let alone whatever actual electrical damage you might cause.

A 60216 is only required if you wanted to use the booster of the early version CS2's. If you have a late version 60214 CS2 (hardware version 4.34 or above) or a 60215, those devices have galvanic isolation so are fine to use as boosters.

Capture.JPG

Capture2.JPG

Why Marklin created this nightmare is anyone's guess!

Also read https://www.marklin-user...-to-connect-a-CS2-to-Cs2
Offline QQQ1970  
#5 Posted : 25 November 2020 16:14:55(UTC)
QQQ1970

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Location: Ontario, Toronto
Mine is 60215 CS2 and 60226 CS3 so there should be no problem connecting both with the 60123 cable? If so, can I use CS2 as master and CS3 as slave?
Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 25 November 2020 16:18:51(UTC)
JohnjeanB

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Originally Posted by: QQQ1970 Go to Quoted Post
Mine is 60215 CS2 and 60226 CS3 so there should be no problem connecting both with the 60123 cable? If so, can I use CS2 as master and CS3 as slave?

No you can't. The CS3 has plugs to be connected by the 60123 cable AS A MASTER and no plug to be connected as a slave (Only the CS3+ has it)
The other side of the cable can be plugged on the CS2 to be used as a slave.
Note: both connectors of the 60123 cable are not identical.
Jean
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 25 November 2020 16:30:56(UTC)
H0


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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
The CS3 has plugs to be connected by the 60123 cable AS A MASTER and no plug to be connected as a slave (Only the CS3+ has it)
The other side of the cable can be plugged on the CS2 to be used as a slave.
Note: both connectors of the 60123 cable are not identical.
Is it the plug that defines the master or is it a checkbox in the UI that defines the master? My uneducated guess is the checkbox does it.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 25 November 2020 17:52:30(UTC)
JohnjeanB

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No Tom, even if you check the box, the CS3 failing to have a CAN bus input makes it impossible for it to PERFORM as a slave.
Check Märklin documentation
Jean
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#9 Posted : 25 November 2020 18:05:57(UTC)
JohnjeanB

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Hi Tom
This is an extract of the lst 60226 documentation page 3
CS3 Connectors.jpg
This is the link to the full documentation
http://streaming.maerkli...3_Manual_EN_final-lo.pdf
Jean
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#10 Posted : 25 November 2020 20:31:54(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

This is an extract of the lst 60226 documentation page 3


You've posted the very same picture I already posted in post #4 Wink

Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: QQQ1970 Go to Quoted Post
Mine is 60215 CS2 and 60226 CS3 so there should be no problem connecting both with the 60123 cable? If so, can I use CS2 as master and CS3 as slave?

No you can't. The CS3 has plugs to be connected by the 60123 cable AS A MASTER and no plug to be connected as a slave (Only the CS3+ has it)
The other side of the cable can be plugged on the CS2 to be used as a slave.
Note: both connectors of the 60123 cable are not identical.
Jean


This is part of the big song and dance story Marklin made when the CS3/CS3+ was released

From memory

- CS3+ has the input connector required to act as a remote controller, CS3 doesn't
- CS3+ has galvanic isolation, CS3 doesn't
- CS3+ has a connector for plugging in legacy S88 devices, CS3 doesn't
- CS3 does have an extra connector in place of the CAN input connector, can't remember what for but I think its an extra booster connector.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 25 November 2020 22:36:25(UTC)
JohnjeanB

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Location: Paris, France
Hi Bigdaddynz
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
[
You've posted the very same picture I already posted in post #4 Wink

Sorry I missed that part and reacted rapidly. It is sometimes hard to convince so we (I) go in circles.Cursing
My excuse: that part of the documentation could have been clearer.
Cheers
Jean


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Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 26 November 2020 13:51:46(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
The CS3 has plugs to be connected by the 60123 cable AS A MASTER and no plug to be connected as a slave (Only the CS3+ has it)
The other side of the cable can be plugged on the CS2 to be used as a slave.
Note: both connectors of the 60123 cable are not identical.
Is it the plug that defines the master or is it a checkbox in the UI that defines the master? My uneducated guess is the checkbox does it.



That certainly seems to be the case in my experience with two cs2s, but I don't have a cs3, so cannot check that with a cs2.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#13 Posted : 26 November 2020 14:05:40(UTC)
JohnjeanB

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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

That certainly seems to be the case in my experience with two cs2s, but I don't have a cs3, so cannot check that with a cs2.

The CS2 had the same master/slave possibilities as the CS3+ (Both an input and output CAN plugs)

Jean
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Offline QQQ1970  
#14 Posted : 26 November 2020 14:22:17(UTC)
QQQ1970

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Location: Ontario, Toronto
If I may have a basic question, what is galvanic isolation? And is it true that only CS3+ but not CS3 has galvanic isolation?
Offline kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 26 November 2020 14:38:40(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: QQQ1970 Go to Quoted Post
If I may have a basic question, what is galvanic isolation? And is it true that only CS3+ but not CS3 has galvanic isolation?


Galvanic Isolation means there is no electrical connection between the outputs that drive the rails and the various other connections on the cs. This prevents the formation of ground loops and other possible connections that can inadvertently damage outputs and inputs when multiple devices are connected together.

There is also galvanic isolation provided in a link88 as the s88 inputs are connected to track voltage which can also cause problems if the isolation isn't there.

The galvanic Isolation within the cs3+ and the 60215 version of the cs2 could be provided by either optoisolators or transformers (I don't know which method is used, and there are other possible methods as well).

You are correct in your understanding about the relationship between the cs3+ and cs3.

Note that some people fit their own galvanic isolation on the inputs of s88 devices and other detectors by using opto-isolators. it just doesn't tend to be named as Galvanic Isolation.

Another example of Galvanic Isolation is the transformer or power supply that is used to power the cs from mains power. One of the requirements for these is to isolate the output from the mains so the end user doesn't get electric shocks that could kill them.
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 26 November 2020 14:39:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
- CS3+ has the input connector required to act as a remote controller, CS3 doesn't
CS3+ can be in the middle of the CAN bus, the CS3 can only be the start of the CAN bus. The biggest unanswered question: Is the start of the physical bus necessarily the master of the logical bus? I don't think so.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#17 Posted : 26 November 2020 15:39:23(UTC)
JohnjeanB

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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
You are correct in your understanding about the relationship between the cs3 and cs3.

Both CS3 and CS3+ have a galvanic insulation. I got this confirmed by Marklin factory in Germany

Jean
My layout videos
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bph
Offline QQQ1970  
#18 Posted : 26 November 2020 15:53:17(UTC)
QQQ1970

Canada   
Joined: 06/02/2018(UTC)
Posts: 302
Location: Ontario, Toronto
Thanks
Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 26 November 2020 20:45:09(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
You are correct in your understanding about the relationship between the cs3 and cs3.

Both CS3 and CS3+ have a galvanic insulation. I got this confirmed by Marklin factory in Germany

Jean


Well, that is different to all the information they publish, including in the cs3 book.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#20 Posted : 26 November 2020 22:31:38(UTC)
JohnjeanB

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Location: Paris, France
Hi Alan
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
You are correct in your understanding about the relationship between the cs3 and cs3.

Both CS3 and CS3+ have a galvanic insulation. I got this confirmed by Marklin factory in Germany

Jean


Well, that is different to all the information they publish, including in the cs3 book.

I found strange that one CS3+ (60216) and not the "normal" CS3 (60226) would have the galvanic insulation so I asked Märklin in Göppingen
Here is their answer
Sehr geehrter Herr Brucy,

vielen Dank für Ihr Schreiben vom 11. September 2020.

Die CS 3 60226 ist galvanisch getrennt, genauso die 60216. Im Moment ist eine Lieferzeit von circa 8 Wochen einzuplanen.
Es sei denn Ihr Händler hat eine CS3 oder CS3 + vorrätig.

Wir hoffen, dass wir Ihnen weiterhelfen konnten.

Bitte bleiben Sie gesund.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Ihr Märklin Kundenberater
Frank Mäder

Gebr. Märklin & Cie. GmbH
Kundenservice
Postfach 960
D-73009 Göppingen

.................................................................
The important part is:" The CS3 has galvanic separation as the 60216 (CS3+). The delivery time is approx. 8 weeks
That is unless your dealer has a CS3 or CS3 + in stock.

.................................................................
Notes: To me this point was very important as I saw load of info saying the opposite in the Stummi Forum and because I had problems with a 2010 CS2 (early 60214) which showed galvanic issues leading to S88 scanning issues. This cost me a CS2 motherboard but the good news is I got a 60215 motherboard capable of 5 A.
There was also no reason for the 60226 to be different of the 60216 - Both units are totally identical except the 60216 has a built in simplified Link 88 and an extra CAN bus input both of which the 60226 don't have.
Cheers
Jean



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