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Offline dickinsonj  
#1 Posted : 18 July 2020 01:17:59(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
My 37604 VT 11.5 is running in the direction indicated by the gui on my CS2 but the lights and active slider don't match. In other words the forward power car has the inactive slider and red lights, while the rear power car has the active slider and the white lights.

It seems like changing the direction reversal bit might be the answer. In the motor block CV #29 controls this and when I read the CV values I see this, which seems to correspond to the "normal" direction value of '0':

Default.jpeg

But after I press that bit icon on the CS2 it does change from grey to black, which seems like it is now set.

BitSet.jpeg

But I can't figure out how to save it to the loco decoder. I can read/write to a folder and there is a download to loco button but it does nothing. If I close the dialog the change is lost. I'm not sure what I am missing here. Is this possibly part of Märklin's locked decoder bs?
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 18 July 2020 13:31:25(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 996
Location: Paris, France
Hi Jim
I see 2 possibilities you may have investigated:
1 - reset the decoder to Factory Values
Hopefully this will restore the train to its initial values

Alternately

2- change the direction lights and slider
Direction lights change:
- start editing parameters on the train (wrench)
- select CVs
- push the light function key
Lok Konfiguration BR 01 138 CV-Funktion Edit-F0.png
Select the field Front Light (Licht vorne) and edit it (wrench): front lighting activated only in one direction: reverse or forward. Repeat the procedure for Rear lights (Licht Hinten).

Slider change
The slider selection is made by a bi-stable relay and its position is made by sending a short pulse to AUX3 (forward slider) or to AUX4 (reverse slider) when going forward or reverse.
So after you go to the same screen as before (function change and programming, look into "Logic Functions" to see which one is commanding AUX3 and AUX4 and reverse the direction when each one is triggered.

Sorry not to be more precise but I haven't done it.

I suggest you read the 60973 (Slider changeover circuit) here: https://static.maerklin....d280a8203a1518179484.pdf
and especially this (page 7)
Before you plug the decoder in, it must be programmed correctly.
Outputs 3 (forwards) and 4 (reverse) must be active for the pickup shoe changeover. The setting for this is done in
mDT3 be means of the function activator „ALWAYS“ and „Action to ALWAYS“. The programming here depends on the
wiring, and it may be necessary to swap the outputs in the
functions.


I hope this will help
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
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Offline dickinsonj  
#3 Posted : 18 July 2020 14:36:44(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Hi Jean, thanks for the ideas.

I did start out by resetting the decoder to factory values, but the problem persists. I have used this CS2 to update other decoder CVs so I assume Märklin may have blocked my access to the direction reverse bit, perhaps because of the use of that relay in this system. I will investigate your ideas about examining the lights and slider selection and read the link you provided.

I have no idea why this changed but it appears that the relay may have been triggered without the decoder or the decoder reversed direction without triggering the relay - but just one time. The relay operation is rock solid now though, remaining out of phase with the decoder and changing state on every decoder direction change and so it is always wrong.

I removed the decoder from the loco, put it in another loco, changed the direction and then reinstalled it in the 37604. But that had no effect although I was sure that it would. The train was fine last year, it went into storage for 6 months and when it went back onto my track it was confused, much as I am now.

I have learned one lesson though and that is to not trust this system, which I have in several other trains. I cancelled the full 12 unit ICE 4 because I don't need another of these two slider trains causing me problems in the future. It also made it easy to pass on the 2020 Insider TEE model because I no longer trust what I formerly thought was a cool feature.

Soon I will ship it off for repair to someone more qualified to deal with this and hope it returns stable and functional at some time in the future.

Thanks again for your input. ThumpUp
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 18 July 2020 15:24:03(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 996
Location: Paris, France
Hi Jim
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
I did start out by resetting the decoder to factory values, but the problem persists. I have used this CS2 to update other decoder CVs so I assume Märklin may have blocked my access to the direction reverse bit, perhaps because of the use of that relay in this system. I will investigate your ideas about examining the lights and slider selection and read the link you provided.

Märklin are not blocking anything but choose not to erase completely the entered configuration during a reset. I many cases I prefer they would have.


Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post

I have no idea why this changed but it appears that the relay may have been triggered without the decoder or the decoder reversed direction without triggering the relay - but just one time. The relay operation is rock solid now though, remaining out of phase with the decoder and changing state on every decoder direction change and so it is always wrong.

I removed the decoder from the loco, put it in another loco, changed the direction and then reinstalled it in the 37604. But that had no effect although I was sure that it would. The train was fine last year, it went into storage for 6 months and when it went back onto my track it was confused, much as I am now.


The problem is frequently caused by unselected changes of memory content (in decoders but also in central units, etc). So you have to put it back.

I suppose the problem you have is with configuration data storage on the decoder (i.e.: the driving of AUX3 and AUX4 for the slider and of FRONT LIGHT and REAR LIGHT). By changing only the direction like you did it does not affect the configuration. You have to change the programmation to put it back like it was when leaving the factory. This is what I suggested you to do in my previous post. Basically the target is to program the decoder so that when changing direction (forward resp. reverse) it sends an impulse (e.g.: 100mS) to resp. AUX3 and AUX4 to select the proper slider (remember the slider inversion relay is a bistable one).

Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post

I have learned one lesson though and that is to not trust this system, which I have in several other trains. I cancelled the full 12 unit ICE 4 because I don't need another of these two slider trains causing me problems in the future. It also made it easy to pass on the 2020 Insider TEE model because I no longer trust what I formerly thought was a cool feature.

Because I am using Rocrail, I don't need the slider changeover logic. Indeed it is a source of problems like yours so I seriously consider to change the loco wiring so that both slider inputs in the loco are connected to the front slider. This makes the loco testing and maintenance much easier. In your case, if the person helping you is a real professional he will reprogram the settings (parameters) of your train. I advise you to refuse any wiring change.
Good luck
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline dickinsonj  
#5 Posted : 18 July 2020 17:27:35(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
More good information Jean - Thank You. ThumpUp

I did not realize that a reset did not truly reset all values in a decoder, which is unfortunate. I agree that the problem is most likely from the stored parameters in the decoder but so far I have not found a solution. The lights are set correctly with the front and rear lights activated in the correct direction, although physically they do not match. I did not see a way to alter the AUX3 and AUX4 actions in the CV section of the CS2, but I can put that decoder into my decoder programmer and try to figure it out with the decoder programming software.

Someone suggested removing the decoder and toggling the state of the relay with a power pulse, but if it is corrupt data in the decoder that would not work either. I did not know where to apply the power but now I know it would be one of the AUX outputs, but I am not clear what the best power source would be. My dealer thought that the reverse pulse from an analog transformer would work, but that sounds like it might be dangerous to me. I definitely am not in favor of rewiring anything, although reversing the motor leads would seem like a possible fix. But that is just a kludge and not a real remedy.

If I ever make any progress i will post what I learn.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline jvuye  
#6 Posted : 18 July 2020 18:15:40(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,847
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
More good information Jean - Thank You. ThumpUp

I did not realize that a reset did not truly reset all values in a decoder, which is unfortunate. I agree that the problem is most likely from the stored parameters in the decoder but so far I have not found a solution. The lights are set correctly with the front and rear lights activated in the correct direction, although physically they do not match. I did not see a way to alter the AUX3 and AUX4 actions in the CV section of the CS2, but I can put that decoder into my decoder programmer and try to figure it out with the decoder programming software.

Someone suggested removing the decoder and toggling the state of the relay with a power pulse, but if it is corrupt data in the decoder that would not work either. I did not know where to apply the power but now I know it would be one of the AUX outputs, but I am not clear what the best power source would be. My dealer thought that the reverse pulse from an analog transformer would work, but that sounds like it might be dangerous to me. I definitely am not in favor of rewiring anything, although reversing the motor leads would seem like a possible fix. But that is just a kludge and not a real remedy.

If I ever make any progress i will post what I learn.


Your problem reminds me of exactly the same symptoms on my copy of this train.
It ended up having nothing to do with the CV, but simply one interrupted connection in one of the couplers!

So I tried to find the offending "coupling" by simply connecting the two power units directly to each other.
In my case it worked when the two power units where connected to gether.
I added the successive coaches until the problem re-appeared.
It was then just a matter of following the wiring.
Don't ask me to tell you the details by memory, but if needed I can try to unehearth what it was exactly..
Hope at least this will put you on a possible track of the problem....(pun intended!) Wink
Cheers
Jacques


Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline dickinsonj  
#7 Posted : 18 July 2020 18:32:55(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

Hope at least this will put you on a possible track of the problem....(pun intended!) Wink
Cheers
Jacques

Thanks Jacques.

Someone suggested that approach when I was making my first attempt at fixing this. Right now I have just the two power units connected together on my programming track and unfortunately it has not changed the behavior. It is interesting that a bad connection in the system can cause this behavior, and there must be some clue there.

I have tried to imagine how this problem came about in the first place and a not having all of the couplers fully connected is one thing that I have considered. I would love to know how I broke it so I can avoid breaking it again if I do ever get it working.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 18 July 2020 21:28:12(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,233
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

Hope at least this will put you on a possible track of the problem....(pun intended!) Wink
Cheers
Jacques

Thanks Jacques.

Someone suggested that approach when I was making my first attempt at fixing this. Right now I have just the two power units connected together on my programming track and unfortunately it has not changed the behavior. It is interesting that a bad connection in the system can cause this behavior, and there must be some clue there.

I have tried to imagine how this problem came about in the first place and a not having all of the couplers fully connected is one thing that I have considered. I would love to know how I broke it so I can avoid breaking it again if I do ever get it working.



I can't help but think the problem is related to the reverse direction CV that you tried to change initially. The fact that you are unable to change it suggests to me there is a problem with the decoder which has set this bit. I wouldn't have expected it to be set as a factory setting, and having it show as a white dot suggests to me it is set.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline dickinsonj  
#9 Posted : 19 July 2020 01:37:04(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

I can't help but think the problem is related to the reverse direction CV that you tried to change initially. The fact that you are unable to change it suggests to me there is a problem with the decoder which has set this bit. I wouldn't have expected it to be set as a factory setting, and having it show as a white dot suggests to me it is set.


Good insights Alan. That does make sense that the white is set while the black is empty or not set. I haven't used that interface recently and could not remember. I also knew 0 was the default and I had done a reset, so I assumed that it was correct without checking. That bit is for direction reversal and the default is 0 for normal operation. When the bit is toggled to 1 the direction is reversed, which fits my case exactly.

Of course that leads me to why I can't change it, how it got flipped in the first place and why a reset didn't fix it? I guess that CV might not be part of the reset image as Jean suggested, and therefore it doesn't get reset. The decoder might be failing and AFAIK I can't save the sounds from this decoder because they have locked that down. That was stupid. ThumbDown

If I replace the decoder I would want the original sound files, which might be a problem There is probably a project for it in their library, which is pretty complete. So it might have the unique starting sound sequence of one engine starting before the other and the volume ramping up accordingly, or it might not. That is a favorite feature of mine and I would hate to give that up.

Soon i plan to stick that decoder into my USB stick interface and open the factory decoder project on my computer. That way I can examine and possibly modify that CV with the decoder tool software and if I still can't update it, the decoder would appear to be on its way out.

I'm really appreciating all of the helpful input I have been getting about this from the good folks here on this forum. ThumpUp

There has to be a solution and I just have not found it yet. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
User is suspended until 21/08/2020 21:50:24(UTC) TEEWolf  
#10 Posted : 19 July 2020 02:09:13(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,441
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post

There has to be a solution and I just have not found it yet. BigGrin


So it is and I think you are on the right track.ThumpUp
Offline dickinsonj  
#11 Posted : 19 July 2020 02:20:58(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
So it is and I think you are on the right track.ThumpUp


I agree Wolfgang and I am getting closer to a solution, I am sure. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline river6109  
#12 Posted : 19 July 2020 06:05:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,126
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I had this on numerous occasions whereas the head lights are in reverse, all I do either change the light setting with my lok programmer or just change the wires to the motor and reverse them

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kiwiAlan  
#13 Posted : 19 July 2020 12:27:16(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,233
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post

Soon i plan to stick that decoder into my USB stick interface and open the factory decoder project on my computer. That way I can examine and possibly modify that CV with the decoder tool software and if I still can't update it, the decoder would appear to be on its way out.


That will be the ultimate test to see if the decoder is faulty or not.

What I would try if you cannot alter that CV is to send just the decoder back to Marklin, stating what model it came from and ask for a fully programmed replacement under warranty. State why you believe it is faulty and how you cannot change the bit.

Make sure you send it in an antistatic bag if you do go this route.
Offline dickinsonj  
#14 Posted : 19 July 2020 19:22:33(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
...or just change the wires to the motor and reverse them .

John

I have considered that John and I even thought about adding connectors to the motor wires so I can swap them around depending on the mood of the decoder. BigGrin

I am keeping that one in my back pocket as a last resort for now.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#15 Posted : 19 July 2020 19:36:14(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
That will be the ultimate test to see if the decoder is faulty or not.

I agree Alan - if it won't accept CV changes then I think the decoder is definitely dying.

Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
What I would try if you cannot alter that CV is to send just the decoder back to Marklin, stating what model it came from and ask for a fully programmed replacement under warranty. State why you believe it is faulty and how you cannot change the bit.

I will see what options I have, although this train is no longer under warranty and I don't think Märklin sells decoders already loaded with the projects for specific locos. If it was still in warranty that might be possible though. When I try it in my decoder programmer I will see what Märklin has on offer in their project library. You can download the decoder project files for a lot of the new offerings but that is not available at this point for this train.

Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Make sure you send it in an antistatic bag if you do go this route.

Always a best practice, which is probably often overlooked. I write software for a living but my company makes me take yearly ESD training to be allowed to work on our custom hardware in the labs, so that one has been beaten into me over many years. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#16 Posted : 19 July 2020 22:34:12(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,233
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
What I would try if you cannot alter that CV is to send just the decoder back to Marklin, stating what model it came from and ask for a fully programmed replacement under warranty. State why you believe it is faulty and how you cannot change the bit.

I will see what options I have, although this train is no longer under warranty and I don't think Märklin sells decoders already loaded with the projects for specific locos. If it was still in warranty that might be possible though. When I try it in my decoder programmer I will see what Märklin has on offer in their project library. You can download the decoder project files for a lot of the new offerings but that is not available at this point for this train.


I was having a think during the day, and would recommend doing a software update on the decoder before doing anything else while you have it on the USB programmer. There is always the possibility of some undocumented glitch in whatever software version the decoder is loaded with that is quietly fixed by an update.

Offline Goofy  
#17 Posted : 20 July 2020 01:06:50(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,292
I find Märklins program in the CS2 and CS3 to read locomotives decoder are frivolous.
It could appears instead easier way to read decoder in every CV adress to read value by present in numbers instead.
Not with round circles showing...
Offline dickinsonj  
#18 Posted : 20 July 2020 01:14:00(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I was having a think during the day, and would recommend doing a software update on the decoder before doing anything else while you have it on the USB programmer. There is always the possibility of some undocumented glitch in whatever software version the decoder is loaded with that is quietly fixed by an update.


Yes, that makes sense and I had not thought of that. My Windows box was not up to date and I am getting all of the latest MS updates installed before I check out that decoder, but hoping to do that tomorrow.

I will check that at the same time, assuming that I can remember how that is done.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#19 Posted : 20 July 2020 01:24:53(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I find Märklins program in the CS2 and CS3 to read locomotives decoder are frivolous.
It could appears instead easier way to read decoder in every CV address to read value by present in numbers instead.
Not with round circles showing...


Märklin does that for the CVs that store different values in the individual bits of a byte and those little circles makes things a lot easier for the majority of users. I doubt that the average user understands how to change a number to alter just one particular bit, nor should they have to IMO. I work with other programmers who have no idea how to do bitwise math, since most software development today is done at far higher levels of abstraction.

I would call that feature a convenience and not frivolous.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#20 Posted : 20 July 2020 12:04:45(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,233
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I find Märklins program in the CS2 and CS3 to read locomotives decoder are frivolous.
It could appears instead easier way to read decoder in every CV address to read value by present in numbers instead.
Not with round circles showing...


Märklin does that for the CVs that store different values in the individual bits of a byte and those little circles makes things a lot easier for the majority of users. I doubt that the average user understands how to change a number to alter just one particular bit, nor should they have to IMO. I work with other programmers who have no idea how to do bitwise math, since most software development today is done at far higher levels of abstraction.

I would call that feature a convenience and not frivolous.


It is also how JMRI displays CVs where each bit is used for a different purpose. As Jim says it saves a heap of hassle with having to do the binary math, thereby making things a lot simpler for the non-technical user. It also allows them to associate bits with other relevant functions where a CV has a number of bits for disparate functions in it.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline dickinsonj  
#21 Posted : 20 July 2020 20:20:04(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
It looks like this decoder is at least partly dead, which would explain why I can't restore that CV bit for direction reversal using my CS2.

When I try to communicate with it using mDecoderTool3 software all I get a "Decoder did not answer" dialog. I checked the pins and they are fine so that is not the problem. I assume that it has a 3rd gen decoder, since it is less than three years old, but I am not sure how to determine what version this decoder is.

Bummer. Mad

Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions. ThumpUp
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#22 Posted : 20 July 2020 21:26:14(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,233
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
It looks like this decoder is at least partly dead, which would explain why I can't restore that CV bit for direction reversal using my CS2.

When I try to communicate with it using mDecoderTool3 software all I get a "Decoder did not answer" dialog. I checked the pins and they are fine so that is not the problem. I assume that it has a 3rd gen decoder, since it is less than three years old, but I am not sure how to determine what version this decoder is.

Bummer. Mad

Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions. ThumpUp


Oh that is a shame. Oh well, on with plan B ... Crying

Offline dickinsonj  
#23 Posted : 21 July 2020 00:55:06(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


Oh that is a shame. Oh well, on with plan B ... Crying


Yes on both.

The only plan B that I can see is Buy a new decoder. That VT 11.5 is such a beautiful model and one of my most favorite trains. ThumpUp

There is no question that Märklin's quality is not where it once was and I have a lot of stuff, which is a bit concerning, particularly when replacing with the same quality OEM stuff.

At least today I was able to install the newest version of the decoder tool software and I downloaded Märklin's new and larger sound library.

I am having to shift money that I would have formerly spent on new models to new motors and decoders for models that are just a few years old. That in turn makes me not want to keep acquiring trains at my former rate, due to the potential maintenance costs. ThumbDown

Oh well, I have enough trains, at least it seems that I must. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 21 July 2020 09:46:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,792
Location: DE-NW
You can reverse the direction of the motor by reversing the permanent magnet. If the software option does not work, there still is a hardware option.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline dickinsonj  
#25 Posted : 21 July 2020 13:13:08(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
You can reverse the direction of the motor by reversing the permanent magnet. If the software option does not work, there still is a hardware option.


I did not realize that was possible and I will give it a try. The software option is definitely off the table since I can no longer communicate with this decoder.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline mbarreto  
#26 Posted : 21 July 2020 16:05:40(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 947
Probably you did it correctly, anyway I suggest you to verify the decoder was inserted in the correct position in the decoder programmer, or if it should be connected upside down (relative to what you are doing).

Edit (text added):
I don't know if you are using the decoder programmer . In case you are not, please ignore my post.
If you want to configure Märklin decoders I think it is better to use the decoder programmer, as i also think if you are configuring ESU decoders it is better to use the ESU LokProgrammer.
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline dickinsonj  
#27 Posted : 21 July 2020 16:53:58(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
Probably you did it correctly, anyway I suggest you to verify the decoder was inserted in the correct position in the decoder programmer, or if it should be connected upside down (relative to what you are doing).

Edit (text added):
I don't know if you are using the decoder programmer . In case you are not, please ignore my post.
If you want to configure Märklin decoders I think it is better to use the decoder programmer, as i also think if you are configuring ESU decoders it is better to use the ESU LokProgrammer.


Yes, I am using the decoder programmer USB stick and the Märklin decoder tool software. The way the pins are arranged there is only one way that it can be mounted to the decoder programmer as far as I can see, because of the single pin on the end row. I have used it to program mSD/3 decoders when doing upgrades and I have never had any problems communicating with a decoder until now.

Thanks for the ideas!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline dickinsonj  
#28 Posted : 22 July 2020 02:11:12(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
I turned the DCM magnets around and it does change the direction that the motors run. That makes sense upon reflection but it had not occurred to me and thanks Tom for pointing that out. ThumpUp

The power car with the decoder now runs in accordance with the lights and slider again! Something went wrong with assembling the second motor though and it does not run at the moment. I took it apart again and checked the usual suspects of a missing brush or a brush wire not back into place correctly. It seems fine with the possible exception of a slightly frayed ground wire on the plate under the brush shield screw. I don't think that is the problem though and I will have to take another look. I feel like I can disassemble and reassemble a DCM in my sleep - maybe that is what I did today. BigGrin

I thought that your suggestion to verify my programming environment was a good one Miguel, particularly since I had just downloaded a new version of the decoder tool software with new USB drivers. ThumpUp

So I took a decoder out of a random loco and tried to read it. I could read the decoder to the extent that it was verified to be an mSD/3. But when I tried to readout the decoder project all I got was a popup saying that this decoder was not an upgrade decoder. I assume that means that it won't read out the project from any factory decoder, which I was not aware of. Is there a black market for Märklin decoder projects? I knew there were limitations but not that they prevented even viewing or altering the the CVs. So I think my environment is fine but only for expensive new decoders, which is what I bought it for. They let me alter CVs with my ancient CS2, but not with their own decoder programming environment? That is dumb.

Hopefully I will get the other motor running and put this one away in a working state. Next up is changing out the motor that died in my 37015 a few months back. Then I still have three more non-functional trains but at least one is still under warranty and I will be mailing it to dealer so it can be his problem. Lately it has always been something with my trains!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline Goofy  
#29 Posted : 22 July 2020 15:04:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,292
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I find Märklins program in the CS2 and CS3 to read locomotives decoder are frivolous.
It could appears instead easier way to read decoder in every CV address to read value by present in numbers instead.
Not with round circles showing...


Märklin does that for the CVs that store different values in the individual bits of a byte and those little circles makes things a lot easier for the majority of users. I doubt that the average user understands how to change a number to alter just one particular bit, nor should they have to IMO. I work with other programmers who have no idea how to do bitwise math, since most software development today is done at far higher levels of abstraction.

I would call that feature a convenience and not frivolous.


It is also how JMRI displays CVs where each bit is used for a different purpose. As Jim says it saves a heap of hassle with having to do the binary math, thereby making things a lot simpler for the non-technical user. It also allows them to associate bits with other relevant functions where a CV has a number of bits for disparate functions in it.


Not truth!
I did saw how easy it was to use MS2 by write value in every CV adress by follow locomotives manual of how to set the value with the numbers.
The average of digital users use value by write under program.
Topic starters diesel train set does only support mfx+ protocol and it does not make easier way to write value in a CV adress.
It is pity shame Märklin did not think to add DCC protocol in the earlier models too.
In fact i do welcome Märklin should have in the program to read and write value in every CV adress with the mfx protocol.

Offline Goofy  
#30 Posted : 22 July 2020 15:24:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,292
Here is a example how to read decoders value to use and write it.
This is an excellent way why it should do same way in the CS3.
Except MS2 which is not possible but MS2 provided how easy by write value in a CV adress.
The small circles in the CS3 are not nice to read CV adress, since there is no numbers to read it.
I prefer numbers.
DSC_0006_246.JPGDSC_0007_247.JPG
Offline rhfil  
#31 Posted : 22 July 2020 15:38:52(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 90
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
What is that second picture, the one with yellow pages, from?
Offline dickinsonj  
#32 Posted : 22 July 2020 17:10:19(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,345
Location: United States
@Webmaster Looks like it is time to lock another thread dragged off topic by Anders and his silliness.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline kiwiAlan  
#33 Posted : 22 July 2020 19:24:26(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,233
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
What is that second picture, the one with yellow pages, from?


That is an ESU decoder manual.

Offline kiwiAlan  
#34 Posted : 22 July 2020 19:32:38(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,233
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

It is also how JMRI displays CVs where each bit is used for a different purpose. As Jim says it saves a heap of hassle with having to do the binary math, thereby making things a lot simpler for the non-technical user. It also allows them to associate bits with other relevant functions where a CV has a number of bits for disparate functions in it.


Not truth!
I did saw how easy it was to use MS2 by write value in every CV adress by follow locomotives manual of how to set the value with the numbers.
The average of digital users use value by write under program.
Topic starters diesel train set does only support mfx+ protocol and it does not make easier way to write value in a CV adress.
It is pity shame Märklin did not think to add DCC protocol in the earlier models too.
In fact i do welcome Märklin should have in the program to read and write value in every CV adress with the mfx protocol.



But you have a reasonable measure of computer literacy. Many in the MRR fraternity are not as adept at the required arithmetic, and it is very easy to make a mistake which appears to leave the decoder inoperable. That sort of interface where the end user doesn't need to do the math, the computer takes care of inter-dependencies, and saves the non-technical user a lot of hassle is of major help to the people doing any support of end customers. In a lot of cases the shop keepers are not technical enough to do more than a factory reset and the end user has to start from the beginning with what they were attempting to do.

This is also a help when doing indexed CVs on decoders like the ESU ones. It is all too easy to screw up setting the index CVs when attempting to change a single CV like volume by doing individual CVs from a throttle. Doing this from JMRI the program takes all responsibility for setting the index CVs and does this invisibly to the end user.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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