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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#1 Posted : 05 April 2020 21:04:12(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

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Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
Hi all,

I have a HAG 152 SBB Triebewagen, one of my favorite locomotives. This was one of my first digital conversions ever, done with a lokpilot 2.0. I've got a light flicker, which I would suspect being the blue ground wire not being connected, but I can't sort where to actually solder that wire on the hag connections.

Thoughts/ideas? Or will soldering to the main locomotive/track ground suffice?

Edited by user 06 April 2020 05:34:53(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#2 Posted : 06 April 2020 02:43:18(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

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Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
Delete- changed thread topic
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 06 April 2020 03:49:10(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,713
Location: Montreal, QC
I should be able to read the decoder in my BDe 4/4, which I could copy so that you would have all of the OEM factory settings.

Regards

Mike C
Offline rbw993  
#4 Posted : 06 April 2020 13:27:10(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 678
The light bulb ground must be isolated from the frame and connected to the decoder ground, the blue wire. If the light bulb socket is built into the frame you will need a new socket.


Roger
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#5 Posted : 06 April 2020 16:44:23(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
Thanks Roger, this is "newer" HAG , so it has the 5 fingers which connect the lighting (housed in the roof) to the decoder and rest of the loco.

That would mean still grounding to the chassis somehow, but as the function ground can it go to the same ground the decoder itself uses, as opposed to directly to the light bulb/that circuit?
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline mvd71  
#6 Posted : 07 April 2020 08:43:19(UTC)
mvd71

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Posts: 1,281
Location: Auckland,
Pictures?
Offline rbw993  
#7 Posted : 07 April 2020 18:24:47(UTC)
rbw993

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Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 678
The decoder is grounded, that's the black wire. If you look at an ESU wiring diagram at www.loksound.com you will see how nothing is connected to the chassis ground except that black wire. I don't have that HAG model so I can't trace connections. A picture might help.

Regards,
Roger

Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#8 Posted : 09 April 2020 02:53:58(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
Hi all, an update:

So for this locomotive, the issue is the entire lighting circuitry is in the roof. The hot and ground wires for the headlights are fine as-is from the factory. The trouble is isolating the ground circuit for the lighting from that of the chassis ground.

I have some solid logic to do this, but have not been able to test due to *ahem* accidentally frying the lokpilot Cursing I have a second one of these with a Marklin 6090, but the 6090 does not have an orange function grounding wire...

But for those interested: 5 prong HAG setup fro BDE 4/4 152/54. I'm told the DC variants have a different board so please ignore for DC locos

Left to Right (will make sense if looking at it)

Engine block - first tab is light (+) second tab is function ground on top for lights, on bottom is chassis and decoder ground - then 2 gaps in tabs - then pickup shoe + in - then (+) input to the decoder, then the other headlight (+)

I can't see how it all wouldn't work, but no way to test!
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline lok151  
#9 Posted : 09 April 2020 14:56:35(UTC)
lok151

Australia   
Joined: 17/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 13
Quote:
second tab is function ground on top for lights, on bottom is chassis and decoder ground


Screenshot (114) - Copy.png

Is this the same as your roof? This picture from the HAG website is a Re 6/6 roof circuit .

The position of the blue dot is the second tab of the fingers. I have soldered the blue wire (orange wire for Märklin 6090) here.
Then I put a piece of heat shrink tube over the finger to stop it contacting the printed circuit. Lights shine without flickering. I have used a small plug and socket so as to be able to remove roof for maintenance of loco or just unsolder the wire to remove roof.

Bernard
Bernard
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#10 Posted : 09 April 2020 16:51:28(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

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Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
Hi Bernard- correct! Thank you for confirming this. My board is slightly different, but same principal.

One question though- why isolate the finger and solder straight to the board? It is isolated on its own, with only a jumper from the finger wire to the main chassis ground. (at least on my 2 HAGs like this). I just pulled the jumper wire which leaves an empty terminal for the blue/orange wire.

The wire I pulled is the brown one with shrink tubing/diode in these images:

IMG_1636.jpgIMG_1635.jpg

FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline lok151  
#11 Posted : 10 April 2020 03:58:56(UTC)
lok151

Australia   
Joined: 17/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 13
Quote:
why isolate the finger and solder straight to the board?


On the Re 6/6 the board holding the 5 fingers is riveted to 2 supports which are part of the chassis. The second finger is attached to the chassis via a metal strip in the board through one of the rivets.
Bernard
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#12 Posted : 10 April 2020 20:08:14(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
Hi all, some updates as I did not solve it. First of course is an image of the roof.

IMG_1648.jpg

Yesterday I ran a separate ground wire and that eliminated flicker, but there is a major feedback impacting running of the locomotive/motor when ever the lighting is turned on. No running issues with the F0 lighting "off". I suspect it has to do with these diodes in the shell. Thoughts?

I can pull the diodes, but eliminating them would lose the interior lighting. (assuming that even fixes the headlight/motor feedback problem)

Thoughts? I have two of these. On one the fix is quite easy via an additional function lead similar to bernard above. The other has a 6090 with no function output, so I maybe stuck. But better no cab lights and everything else working than the current situation. I don't need them anyways
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline mvd71  
#13 Posted : 10 April 2020 21:55:59(UTC)
mvd71

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Location: Auckland,
What purpose do the diodes serve?
Offline mvd71  
#14 Posted : 10 April 2020 22:00:25(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,281
Location: Auckland,
If you temporarily remove them you could at least determine if they are a part of the problem, and then you would know for sure.

You may a a leak to ground through the lighting system that is making the decoder struggle? Another possibility is if the total load of the interior lights and headlights exceeds the decoder capability? Again removing the diodes and disabling the interior lights would prove this. If that were the case perhaps they could be replaced with led's in the future to give lights and still keep the load within limits?
Offline rbw993  
#15 Posted : 10 April 2020 22:02:15(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 678
Are the head lights/tail lights one function and the car interior lights a separate function? From looking at the roof I would expect the orange wire to connect the second finger from the motor end as the ground for both interior and head light circuits.
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#16 Posted : 11 April 2020 02:38:39(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
What purpose do the diodes serve?


They are jumpers, providing power to the interior lights. One pulls off the forward headlight circuit, and the other the reverse lead. I'm going to test pulling them later tonight just to see. More to follow...
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#17 Posted : 11 April 2020 06:20:03(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
An update: pulling the two resistors/diodes did the trick! Runs perfectly, with directional lighting.

Unfortunately I no longer have interior lights, but thats ok for now. I'll confirm the wiring arrangement works otherwise once the replacement lokpilot for the one I toasted arrives. And now of course I know to pull diodes and run F1 for the interior lighting...

More to follow once I get that sorted, but Lokpilot MFX decoders are rarer than hens teeth here in the USA at the moment, so I'm waiting on an order for who knows how long...
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline mvd71  
#18 Posted : 11 April 2020 11:37:29(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,281
Location: Auckland,
That's good news. So the question just remains about if it was excessive load or not. So could it be re-introduced it you wired in a couple of led's with resistors in place of the light bulbs?
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#19 Posted : 11 April 2020 20:35:22(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

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Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
That's good news. So the question just remains about if it was excessive load or not. So could it be re-introduced it you wired in a couple of led's with resistors in place of the light bulbs?


Excellent question. I suspect this is not the case but don't have more than a hunch to back that up.

1- It ran fine with interior lights before I set out to eliminate flicker.
2- I also found this thread on the HAG forum which mentioned ditching the roof resistors. But no mention of why.

https://www.forum.hag-in...4-nr-152-digitalisieren/ (see post #20)

The interior lights still share a ground contact if I run a function wire to them.

Either way, since I have 2 identical locomotives there is the luxury of playing with this. Once I get a lokpilot I will install that in the second locomotive accordingly and see. The lokpilot of course has greater load capabilities, but if the problem was not the decoder-rather the pcboard or wiring- we will know right away. Then I'll tackle the older loco with 6090 (or leave as is)
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline mvd71  
#20 Posted : 11 April 2020 23:23:09(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,281
Location: Auckland,
I see your point. Will be interesting to hear the results of future tests.

I find doing simple mods to get improvements on old decoders really satisfying. In the case of a railcar like this, the 6090 does everything you could need once the mod is done.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#21 Posted : 16 September 2020 20:10:34(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,988
Location: NY, NY
Hi everyone, 6 months later I can finally close the book on this project, as the replacement lokpilot MFX arrived. (I had ordered a 5.0, but got tired of waiting and found a 4.0 mfx to do the job on sale)

In the end, the key conversion steps were:

1- Pulling the resistors/jumpers from the roof circuitry. This isolates the interior lighting on one side
2- Grounding the F0 functions/lighting to the entirety of the cab circuitry, which includes the interior light strip still connected, the opposite side of the isolated connection mentioned above.
3- Running F1 to the independent strip created in point one above. This gives interior lighting as F1

From there it is a normal conversion. Happy modelling!



FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline mike c  
#22 Posted : 17 September 2020 03:25:07(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,713
Location: Montreal, QC
I had a 154 analog and decided to opt for a 154 Digital, as it seemed rather complex to convert this unit to digital operation. The digital version has a different board with different wiring and different bulbs for digital operation. I remember there was a note inserted in the box of my original model which specified that the circuit board (roof) of the DC model cannot be used for AC operation and vice-versa.

I did not check to see whether the digital AC board is the same as the DC one, but in analog mode, the main board send power to the interior lighting and the electronic reverse unit controls which cab end is powered (front lights). In the digital version, the front lights are controlled by a direction dependent function and the interior lights are controlled by a function key. In the digital version, both hot and return are wired to the decoder, whereas in the analog version it was only the hot, with the chassis serving as return (ground). What I don't remember if the return was connected directly to the circuit board (roof) or whether it was by lead to the main board and connected to the chassis from there.

If I were to have the energy to undertake a project, I would do the following:
F0: Directional headlights (LED)
F1: Taillight (Swiss) on/off
F2: Taillight (Swiss) red/white (LEDs)
F3: Interior Lighting*
F4: Direction Dependent Cab Lighting (LED)

I would see if you could install LED lighting for the luggage compartment. This might be difficult as this is partially used for the motor.
I would also provide some sort of connection to the couplings so that you could power the lights in intermediate coaches and even a pilot coach from the main decoder.

I am happy with my Lokpilot equipped OEM Hag 154, but would like to be able to have the headlights off and taillight on when pushing the pilot coach (AKU ABt Lightsteel/Railtop EWI ABt or Maerklin ABt Lightsteel Umbau).

Regards

Mike C
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