Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline DaleSchultz  
#1 Posted : 05 January 2020 03:32:32(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Hi

I am asking on behalf of a friend who has the Märklin „Köfferli“ 39520
Manual: https://static.maerklin.de/damcontent/27/eb/27ebd7bab692c584523c0929dacf46f11572440800.pdf

He runs his layout using Motorola only using an Intellibox (first version). (Because some signals gave trouble when DCC was also present)

He has set CV 50 = 4 - which disables mfx and enables DCC & MM

He has tested the loco on some track powered by the Märklin 6021 - which is MM only and it works fine.

But on his Intellibox powered track, it won't respond.

Suspecting that his Intellibox may be sending some DCC packets out, I have asked him for the values of special options
10, 12, 22, 25 & 907

Any other ideas as to why this loco may not work on the IB?

Could it be "World of Operation" that may need to be disabled? (I don't see any setting for that though)
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline TEEWolf  
#2 Posted : 05 January 2020 05:32:56(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Hello Dale,

I do not have much experience with ESU's Intellibox. But as you know I got a CS 3+. Maerklin recommends in its manuals and/or books to switch of all not needed track formats at a CS 3. Because they may cause some trouble.

I do not think it has directly to do with the mfx+ format, but perhaps with mfx itself. As you see in the manual the setted track format priorities from the manufacturer. It is always mfx on the first place. As you write, only the IB makes some trouble. So why not switch it completly off for the IB? Run the loco only with DCC in a way the IB is forced using only DCC. Give it no chance for any choice selecting by itself the use of a track format. The main setting for the controller is using the track format by its installed priority levles.

BTW, from you a very nice article in German in the new “Digitale Modellbahn” (DiMO) 01-2020 page 60 ff about the “Bahnsteiganzeiger”! Even your "Wilsnack Hbf" picture is seen on the title of the paper.

https://docplayer.org/16...oled-bildschirmchen.html

OK, we know this article from your homepage already. Nevertheless for myself it is an easier reading.Smile Oh, just write the German word - Bahnsteiganzeiger - into Google and see the pictures coming up.BigGrin

ciao

Wolfgang

P.S.: did you try CV 50=5 or 6 or 7 too - perhaps this has an influence for an IB?
Offline amartinezv  
#3 Posted : 05 January 2020 10:24:44(UTC)
amartinezv

Spain   
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 320
Location: Madrid,

Hello,

I had a similar problem with croco insider 39567, I disabled the mfx and put a long address on DCC, and it didn't work for me.
So, I left it with the default address in DCC and MM, and drove it in MM when it responded, which took a few tries, I put the long address in DCC and it worked fine.

Anyway after a while, without using it, it did the same to me again, it seems that if this long time without using it tends to forget the DCC address, with the BR 65 it happened the same to me.

See what version of software the IB has, mine has the latest one, 2.01; it would be better to update it since with this version you can access all the functions.

And I use DCC and MM addresses for the locomotives, and the turnouts and signals all in MM, and it works fine without problems.

IB is from Uhlenbrock.

best regards
Antonio Martínez
marklin, IB, era 3, Train controller
www.raildigital.es/davidruso
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by amartinezv
Offline Goofy  
#4 Posted : 05 January 2020 17:58:15(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
When i use even Märklin on the tracks with the CS3 i make sure to disabled unnecessary protocols and use only one protocol set at the locomotive decoder.
Märklin recommended this way too, because to avoid digital interference with too many protocols enable.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline DaleSchultz  
#5 Posted : 05 January 2020 19:50:00(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
the CV 50 does not give the option of disabling DCC. the value of 4 disabled everything else except DCC and MM so to run using MM DCC has to remain enabled.

He sent me the SO values today and I believe that he has to set SO 22 = 7 , so 25 = 3 and SO 907 = 1 to ensure that no DCC packets are sent out.

He will be trying those values later today.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#6 Posted : 05 January 2020 19:54:28(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


BTW, from you a very nice article in German in the new “Digitale Modellbahn” (DiMO) 01-2020 page 60 ff about the “Bahnsteiganzeiger”! Even your "Wilsnack Hbf" picture is seen on the title of the paper.


Thanks Wolfgang!

It has been an honor to have it translated for the German train press. They saw the article in a UK publication and asked to publish it also!

I have another article I have sent to them too!


Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 05 January 2020 21:37:17(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
the CV 50 does not give the option of disabling DCC. the value of 4 disabled everything else except DCC and MM so to run using MM DCC has to remain enabled.


No it doesn't mean anything of the sort - check the Marklin documentation for the decoder.

You cannot disable the protocol that you are using to program the decoder, so if you are using the Intellibox it will be using DCC methods for programming, so you cannot disable DCC. If you are programming on a Marklin controller with DCC disabled then you will be able to disable the DCC protocol in the decoder.

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Webmaster  
#8 Posted : 05 January 2020 21:42:21(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I do not have much experience with ESU's Intellibox.


Neither have I, but I had the Intellibox made by Uhlenbrock earlier... Wink

Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Webmaster
Offline DaleSchultz  
#9 Posted : 05 January 2020 22:26:43(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
my friend has reported that with my suggested changes to some special options, his loco is now working fine!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline DaleSchultz  
#10 Posted : 05 January 2020 22:37:32(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
the CV 50 does not give the option of disabling DCC. the value of 4 disabled everything else except DCC and MM so to run using MM DCC has to remain enabled.


No it doesn't mean anything of the sort - check the Marklin documentation for the decoder.

You cannot disable the protocol that you are using to program the decoder, so if you are using the Intellibox it will be using DCC methods for programming, so you cannot disable DCC. If you are programming on a Marklin controller with DCC disabled then you will be able to disable the DCC protocol in the decoder.



uh, what? I actually included a link to the documentation that shows that the value 4 leaves only MM and DCC enabled.
They lump MM and DCC together into one column (bit). You cannot disable DCC and keep MM or vice versa.

I know one can't disable the protocol being used to change the CV, but that is irrelevant. It is just a reminder to use a different protocol to program the CV. In his case he can't use mFx to set the CV, but since he only has access to MM and DCC, it is not an issue.

You cannot disable DCC and keep MM enabled.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Goofy  
#11 Posted : 06 January 2020 01:59:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post

uh, what? I actually included a link to the documentation that shows that the value 4 leaves only MM and DCC enabled.
They lump MM and DCC together into one column (bit). You cannot disable DCC and keep MM or vice versa.

I know one can't disable the protocol being used to change the CV, but that is irrelevant. It is just a reminder to use a different protocol to program the CV. In his case he can't use mFx to set the CV, but since he only has access to MM and DCC, it is not an issue.

You cannot disable DCC and keep MM enabled.



You can use only one protocol by save mfx in value 8 at adress CV 50.
I prefer one protocol in the decoder because of pure signal contact alone on the digital tracks.
You can always disable DCC protocol or MM in the CS3 system settings too.
In this case the decoder cannot use some of the protocols.
I recommended ac and dc protocol disable because they are waste on the digital tracks.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#12 Posted : 06 January 2020 09:48:40(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I do not have much experience with ESU's Intellibox.


Neither have I, but I had the Intellibox made by Uhlenbrock earlier... Wink



I have an Intellibox made by Uhlenbrock (an early 650 model) but I don't know where you can buy an ESU one....
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 06 January 2020 09:56:26(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
.....from you a very nice article in German in the new “Digitale Modellbahn” (DiMO) 01-2020 page 60 ff about the “Bahnsteiganzeiger”! Even your "Wilsnack Hbf" picture is seen on the title of the paper.


I wondered why the picture of the BR111 in S-Bahn colours rang a bell, now I know why. Should have checked the author's name!

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 06 January 2020 10:52:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
You cannot disable DCC and keep MM enabled.
You cannot disable DCC using DCC. You cannot disable MM using MM. You cannot disable mfx using mfx.

You can disable DCC using the MM protocol leaving MM active. Can definitely be done using the 6021. Can most likely also be done with the Intellibox.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#15 Posted : 06 January 2020 11:04:04(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Capture.JPG

Page from the manual Dale refers to.

Not sure what it means by "DCC or MM" or what happens when 4 is written to CV50. Does it just enable both protocols (which is the inference) or does it enable the one you are programming with (assuming you are using either MM or DCC to program)?
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 06 January 2020 12:14:50(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Page from the manual Dale refers to.
In the manual for the 60972 decoder you find separate tables for MM programming and DCC programming.
https://static.maerklin....e982b774421569315494.pdf

Bit 2 applies to DCC only when using MM programming and it applies to MM only when using DCC programming.
There are two different bits in the decoder, but the interface hides one of these bits so you cannot lock yourself out.

In the loco manual they made a combined table that can give the impression that MM and DCC share the same bit.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline Goofy  
#17 Posted : 06 January 2020 12:30:10(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I suppose Intellibox first generation need to been update to handle with the new generation decoder?
The old digital system cannot handle with all digital decoders without problem when the old system has not been upgraded.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline amartinezv  
#18 Posted : 06 January 2020 12:42:36(UTC)
amartinezv

Spain   
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 320
Location: Madrid,
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I suppose Intellibox first generation need to been update to handle with the new generation decoder?
The old digital system cannot handle with all digital decoders without problem when the old system has not been upgraded.


Hi

I have the first generation IB, and I do have it updated to the latest version, 2.01, but as far as I know when I read the review notes I don't remember that at any time there were problems handling the newest decoders, it was to fix or implement new features.

One of the last updates gave an easier and more direct access to the functions of the decoders, but in any case the access was there.

Best regards
Antonio Martínez
marklin, IB, era 3, Train controller
www.raildigital.es/davidruso
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by amartinezv
H0
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 06 January 2020 13:57:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I suppose Intellibox first generation need to been update to handle with the new generation decoder?
The old digital system cannot handle with all digital decoders without problem when the old system has not been upgraded.
I suppose you have very little experience with the Intellibox.
DCC is DCC and why should a standard-compliant controller require an update to handle newer standard-compliant decoders?
Well, are the latest Märklin decoders standard-compliant? ESU offers an update with workarounds for bugs of recent Märklin decoders, but AIUI this applies to mfx only, so no need for Uhlenbrock to add workarounds to their DCC controller.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline DaleSchultz  
#20 Posted : 06 January 2020 16:06:13(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
You cannot disable DCC and keep MM enabled.
You cannot disable DCC using DCC. You cannot disable MM using MM. You cannot disable mfx using mfx.

You can disable DCC using the MM protocol leaving MM active. Can definitely be done using the 6021. Can most likely also be done with the Intellibox.



Not according to the documentation.

If disabling say DCC what value would you put into CV 50 then?

It sounds like people are suggesting there are two CV 50 registers, one visible to MM and one visible to DCC.
If so then the value of 4 would have eliminated the DCC capabilities if my friends loco. It did not.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline H0  
#21 Posted : 06 January 2020 16:53:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
It sounds like people are suggesting there are two CV 50 registers, one visible to MM and one visible to DCC.
If so then the value of 4 would have eliminated the DCC capabilities if my friends loco. It did not.
The value 4 enables DCC, it does not disable it.

AIUI you do not get direct access to the memory through CV 50, there are at least 5 bits and CV 50 accesses a subset of 4 bits.

Setting CV 50 to 0 under MM protocol will disable DCC, but leave MM active.
Setting CV 50 to 0 under DCC protocol will disable MM, but leave DCC active.
With mfx you can enable or disable DCC and MM independently, but cannot disable mfx.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline DaleSchultz  
#22 Posted : 06 January 2020 17:24:14(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Thanks Tom.

That is how they should have written the documentation!

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline TEEWolf  
#23 Posted : 06 January 2020 19:30:11(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I do not have much experience with ESU's Intellibox.


Neither have I, but I had the Intellibox made by Uhlenbrock earlier... Wink



Oh the Intellibox is not from ESU? OK that was one reason writing I do not have any experiences with this NON-Maerklin stuff.Blink BigGrin

And I am still thinking here is the marklin-users.net forum!Flapper LOL

BTW, thanks for your little changing abbriviation program. Laugh Love But "marklin" is still not correct yet. It is Maerklin!Crying
Offline TEEWolf  
#24 Posted : 06 January 2020 19:34:01(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
I do not have much experience with ESU's Intellibox.


Neither have I, but I had the Intellibox made by Uhlenbrock earlier... Wink



I have an Intellibox made by Uhlenbrock (an early 650 model) but I don't know where you can buy an ESU one....


I do not know either.LOL LOL LOL
Offline Goofy  
#25 Posted : 06 January 2020 19:44:15(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I suppose Intellibox first generation need to been update to handle with the new generation decoder?
The old digital system cannot handle with all digital decoders without problem when the old system has not been upgraded.
I suppose you have very little experience with the Intellibox.
DCC is DCC and why should a standard-compliant controller require an update to handle newer standard-compliant decoders?
Well, are the latest Märklin decoders standard-compliant? ESU offers an update with workarounds for bugs of recent Märklin decoders, but AIUI this applies to mfx only, so no need for Uhlenbrock to add workarounds to their DCC controller.



It is not first time customer who use Intellibox first generation do have problem.
Simple understand there has been lot of problem by use even Uhlenbrock digital accessories.
You should check if Intellibox does really works?
Owner to Märklin old system 6021 did also got some problem to control competitors digital products.
If the problem in the Intellibox does still keeps on, you have to fix the problem.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline David Dewar  
#26 Posted : 06 January 2020 21:14:26(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Maybe we should have a thread just for Intellibox users who can then help each other without non users (like me) getting involved.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by David Dewar
Offline DaleSchultz  
#27 Posted : 06 January 2020 22:28:59(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Just to summarize here,

The issue was a Märklin documentation problem. Their documentation is misleading at best, essentially wrong. As Tom pointed out, can discern the discrepancy by looking at the 60972 decoder documentation which is more comprehensive.

The Intellibox has nothing to do with the problem, it was simply the device that showed the problem.

I still use the first version of the IB, it works perfectly, and to date I have not heard of another controller as successful as the IB.

Suggestions that one should check the IB is working to someone who has used one for over 2 decades and capable of using logic to explore potential causes is rather insulting, especially coming from someone who constantly has problems getting anything to work from any manufacturer. Despite not even having even seen the loco that was not working well, I was able to suggest configuration changes that worked around the decoder documentation problem, remotely.

Thanks !




Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline H0  
#28 Posted : 07 January 2020 09:28:51(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
And I am still thinking here is the marklin-users.net forum!Flapper LOL
You have been told many times that this forum allows talking about anything that can be used with Märklin products.
You have a long-standing reputation for derailing threads and reducing the S/N ratio and you lived up to our expectations once again. Flapper

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline H0  
#29 Posted : 07 January 2020 09:30:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Maybe we should have a thread just for Intellibox users who can then help each other without non users (like me) getting involved.
This was a thread for Intellibox users - goofed up with some not so helpful remarks.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline mrmarklin  
#30 Posted : 07 January 2020 20:36:09(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 890
Location: Burney, CA
We use the Intellibox II on the ETE modules here in the Bay Area. It can be a little buggy. The problems with MFX Loks with the newer decoders were deciphered early on in our experience. The protocols ARE documented in the Marklin instruction book, but not immediately obvious to the casual user of the product.

The above being said there are certain of my older MFX Loks that have difficulty with the intellibox and will not run or many functions are inaccessible. There are some other problems as well, but no one has mentioned them so I won't either.

I personally am still using a CS2 as it is adequate for my needs, but it's starting to break and need repairs, so an update is due.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
Offline H0  
#31 Posted : 08 January 2020 11:29:45(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
The above being said there are certain of my older MFX Loks that have difficulty with the intellibox and will not run or many functions are inaccessible.
The functions that are inaccessible with the IB are also inaccessible with the 6021. This is by design coz Märklin want you to buy a new controller.
If locos run with a 6021 but not with an IB then there is an issue with the IB.
All my "mfx" locos run with the IB - most of them require using MM and some functions might be inaccessible, recent ones run using DCC.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.940 seconds.