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Offline Minok  
#1 Posted : 05 April 2019 21:26:35(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
In prepping for my mini-BASF plant in the background of my Mannheim station, I've picked up 6 of the ESU Pullman Deutz tanker cars, and along with them the ESU specified AC wheelsets. Newb that I am I figured, the install of the AC wheelsets on my older Fleischman BBC transformer car went so well, this should be no problem. Not so.

First problem, due to the plastic detailing around the wheels, popping out the original DC wheelsets without also popping off or breaking off some small plastic bit around the wheels/springs area proved impossible for me on 30% of the axels.. so at some point I'll be gluing back on bits or broken bits once I have the cars running smoothly. There really is no room to touch almost without knocking something off. Lesson learned but grrr.

So once I got the AC wheelsets on the cars, I noticed that 2 of the 6 have some running problems, specifically that the cars don't roll smoothly because one of the 2 axels isn't rolling friction free. One of them, even binds in one direction but not the other. Headscratch.

The I dug around on Stummi and remember things I should have known from the start, realized that their could be one of several issues, but most related to poor wagon design or manufacture by ESU/Pullman.

AC wheelsets have a have a higher rim - and it could be the wheel rim is rubbing on some part of the underbody, which can be addressed with some grinding/filing. Bad design if thats the case.

It could be the wheelsets are not gauged right and the outside face of the wheels is rubbing on the plastic surround - I can check that with the guage as part of the closer inspection I have planned this weekend when I can put the cars under bright light and magnification and not just doing the work by a ceiling light at the kitchen table. That would be just the way the replacement wheelsets come, and may be a standard issue but again would be an ESU/Pullman manufacturing problem.

But given one axel binds in one direction but not the other, I'm thinking its also likely that one set of wheels is binding on the plastic brake shoes in one direction - the tolerances are tight, too tight unless you manufacture taking that into account. If they address this at assembly in the DC wheelset install at the factory, then the instructions on the AC wheelsets for the car really should include a tip and graphic of what to look for and adjust when installing the AC wheelsets.

From the Stummi search I found others had problems with Brawa freight cars in the past when installing AC wheelsets, so its not some novel problem.

I'm wondering, is this sort of thing I can expect to deal with whenever I replace DC wheels with AC wheels. (0/4 Fleischmann, and 3/12 ESU/Pullman axels)?

Does anyone have experience with a similar issue and can they provide a tip or photos on what to look for and grind/adjust?

One such car, not the broken off wheel hub trim bit lying next to the left wheel/axel; seemd unavoidable to get this or the smaller horizontal bit to just break off handling the things to try and pry out the DC axels.
IMG_2749.jpg


Inside face of where the axel seats; not the horizontal black bar that I snapped off on other cars often as well. Fiddly bits close to where one has to pry = bad idea in my book.

IMG_2754.jpg



Bottom of one of the cars with an axel removed. Its busy down there, but the wheels are held in by friction between delicate plastic held and surrounded bits.
IMG_2753.jpg


Closeup of the two axels of one car - one binds and one does not. When the wheels on their pointy ends don't sit center in the space, of course the surrounding plastic bits (brake shoes etc) could rub on the wheelsets, either the taller rims, or the differently gauged faces.

IMG_2758.jpg

IMG_2756.jpg

The cars in question:
IMG_2759.jpg



So I'll be putting them under the illuminated Luxo magnifier this weekend when I've got fresh eyes in the morning and see what I can figure out.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 05 April 2019 22:50:53(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,653
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
..AC wheelsets have a have a higher rim - and it could be the wheel rim is rubbing on some part of the underbody, which can be addressed with some grinding/filing. Bad design if thats the case.

..
But given one axel binds in one direction but not the other, I'm thinking its also likely that one set of wheels is binding on the plastic brake shoes in one direction - the tolerances are tight, too tight unless you manufacture taking that into account. If they address this at assembly in the DC wheelset install at the factory, then the instructions on the AC wheelsets for the car really should include a tip and graphic of what to look for and adjust when installing the AC wheelsets.

From the Stummi search I found others had problems with Brawa freight cars in the past when installing AC wheelsets, so its not some novel problem.

I'm wondering, is this sort of thing I can expect to deal with whenever I replace DC wheels with AC wheels. (0/4 Fleischmann, and 3/12 ESU/Pullman axels)?

..


So I'll be putting them under the illuminated Luxo magnifier this weekend when I've got fresh eyes in the morning and see what I can figure out.


Hi Thomas,

Wheel flange/rim rubbing on an underpart of the body is often a problem.
I found that axle length in REE cars a problem, 24mm AC axles just drop out, and 25mm axles are too tight.

I rarely bother to replace AC for DC axles any more, because the DC seem to run OK anyway.
If they don't, I investigate.
And so long as you have some AC wheels in a train of wagons, you retain Maerklin track activation.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#3 Posted : 05 April 2019 23:24:09(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,863
Location: CA, USA
Hi- to kimball's point I tend to just leave them DC unless they absolutely need AC for some reason. At least on C track they tend to be flawless once regauged from NEM DC spacing to the AC marklin spacing.
SBB Era 2-5
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by 5HorizonsRR
Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 05 April 2019 23:27:37(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
..AC wheelsets have a have a higher rim - and it could be the wheel rim is rubbing on some part of the underbody, which can be addressed with some grinding/filing. Bad design if thats the case.

..
But given one axel binds in one direction but not the other, I'm thinking its also likely that one set of wheels is binding on the plastic brake shoes in one direction - the tolerances are tight, too tight unless you manufacture taking that into account. If they address this at assembly in the DC wheelset install at the factory, then the instructions on the AC wheelsets for the car really should include a tip and graphic of what to look for and adjust when installing the AC wheelsets.

From the Stummi search I found others had problems with Brawa freight cars in the past when installing AC wheelsets, so its not some novel problem.

I'm wondering, is this sort of thing I can expect to deal with whenever I replace DC wheels with AC wheels. (0/4 Fleischmann, and 3/12 ESU/Pullman axels)?

..


So I'll be putting them under the illuminated Luxo magnifier this weekend when I've got fresh eyes in the morning and see what I can figure out.


Hi Thomas,

Wheel flange/rim rubbing on an underpart of the body is often a problem.
I found that axle length in REE cars a problem, 24mm AC axles just drop out, and 25mm axles are too tight.

I rarely bother to replace AC for DC axles any more, because the DC seem to run OK anyway.
If they don't, I investigate.
And so long as you have some AC wheels in a train of wagons, you retain Maerklin track activation.

Kimball



Good to know its not uncommon... at least then I'm not just cursed and misery loves company and all that.

The motivation of putting the AC axles on (though I could have just used conductive paint) was partly to get ahead of any issues with turnouts/crossings, but also to know when the last axle left the prior block - and since I don't know which end of which car will be at the end of a train, and the cars only have 2 axles, they all needed changing.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline DaleSchultz  
#5 Posted : 06 April 2019 00:52:33(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

I'm wondering, is this sort of thing I can expect to deal with whenever I replace DC wheels with AC wheels.

To be very blunt, yes. I would not expect wheels to be interchangeable between manufacturers at all.

I have spent many years in Märklin groups and fora (even before this one) and there is a set of issues that continually come up that I perceive to belong to the common theme of mixing rollingstock manufacturer equipment:

  • Problems running non-Märklin rolling stock on Märklin track
  • Problems running non-Märklin axles on Märklin equipment
  • Problems using non-Märklin couplers on Märklin equipment

Märklin's HO scale rail specifications are not the same as the rest of the industry.

Yes, there are people who have done some or all of the above "and don't have any issues", but that does not mean that the practice of mixing parts that have to interact with each other very closely is likely to succeed.

Sometimes (rare) even Märklin equipment does not run properly on certain pieces of Märklin track.

I am not a Märklin bigot either, I use ESU decoders, a Uhlenbrock controller and Viessmann digital components, signals and catenary poles, Merkur ballast, for example, but trying to interchange parts that are integral to the smooth running of the vehicles is a recipe for tears.



Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline lewistrain  
#6 Posted : 06 April 2019 01:07:55(UTC)
lewistrain

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 77
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
Its important for people to understand that there is no such thing as AC or DC wheelsets, how ever there is such a thing as 2 rail and 3 rail wheel sets.
If you have 3 rail you are lucky because you can run what ever sort of wheels you like, it really wont matter at all.
Obviously our 2 rail cousins will need insulated wheels,and preferable insulated bogies.
And the argument that non insulated wagon wheels provides better pick up for your locos is one i am not fond of, of your layout depends onthe rolling stock to assist the conductivity of electricity then you have some issues to sort out.
I run fleischmann, Marklin, life like, and plenty of other brands of rolling stock and locos on my C track carpet bahn all the time,
And another important thing, modern marklin doesnt run on AC anyway, its pulsed DC full of data packets and all sorts of stuff, amd marklin motors fitted with magnets (DC motors) will run just fine on straight DC as well.
I think i am going to have to do a video on all this stuff its getting to me.
LOLOLOL they are just toys, grow up and play with them.
Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 06 April 2019 03:50:28(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

I'm wondering, is this sort of thing I can expect to deal with whenever I replace DC wheels with AC wheels.

To be very blunt, yes. I would not expect wheels to be interchangeable between manufacturers at all.




Dale I think your misunderstanding my issue or I’m miss understanding your explanation.
We are not doing anything with Märklin track, track isn’t even in the mix yet. The problem I have is I purchased an ESU freight car. That car came with a specification for their specific replacement wheel sets to use on an “ac” system.
It is the installation and fit is the very specific parts instructed in the in the car’s manual which comes from that manufacturer that is not working.

I’m not mixing Märklin and ESU parts. I’m installing the ESU specified parts on the ESU sold wagon. And it’s not rolling smoothly.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Minok  
#8 Posted : 06 April 2019 03:53:13(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: lewistrain Go to Quoted Post
Its important for people to understand that there is no such thing as AC or DC wheelsets,


Ok but that is the terminology the industry is using. They refer to them as “AC” and “DC” in the literature.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 06 April 2019 12:59:19(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
These discussions seem to return periodically, do they not?

Maybe we should just say, "Marklin system" and "Non-Marklin system", where Marklin system equates to "AC", "3-rail", Motorola, MFX, etc, and Non-Marklin is DC, 2-rail, DCC etc...

Yes I know that these are not mutually exclusive, but it gets you out of the pedantic arguments!

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline CTD81  
#10 Posted : 06 April 2019 15:02:14(UTC)
CTD81

United Kingdom   
Joined: 05/11/2017(UTC)
Posts: 21
Location: England, Rotherham
I've never bothered to change DC wheel-sets to AC wheel-sets since I started with Marklin and I've not had any problems even with plastic Lima wheel-sets so I wouldn't worry about having to change them
Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 06 April 2019 16:12:48(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I was just responding to the 'whenever changing wheel sets comment'

I don't disagree that changing ESU axles for different ESU axles on an ESU car should work fine.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 06 April 2019 19:39:05(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I was just responding to the 'whenever changing wheel sets comment'

I don't disagree that changing ESU axles for different ESU axles on an ESU car should work fine.


Fair enough. I should have been more explicit and written “whenever replacing the original DC wheels with the car manufacturer specified AC wheels”. ;)
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 07 April 2019 09:46:09(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Done with the analysis; result is really poorly built ESU/Pullman tanker cars.

One one car, the larger AC wheelset flange was rubbing on the screw head that screws the coupler kinematic to the bottom of the car; the screw was loose or maybe even stripped. Tightend it up a bit and scrapped some crap off of the inside face of the wheel seat.

On the other car, it was indeed a misaligned plastic brake shoe pressing on the wheel. In fact, even the DC wheelsets were dragging. The brake shoe wasn't properly installed I guess, as I easily pulled it out - applied some new glue, and re-glued it with a bit more gap to the wheel. Rolling improved.

So based on my 6 car purchase, I'd say the ESU/Pullman design and build quality is shit as 1/3 of the cars had rolling problems with all wheels or once the ESU specified AC wheels were fitted. Prototypical correctness and high level of detail don't amount to squat 66% of the product won't roll.

On the issue of why even go to AC wheelsets...

In the end I made a short video to illustrate, beyond the electrical conductivity for S88 detection, why for ride smoothness, one would want to install AC wheelsets on cars that come with DC wheelsets.
The C Track design (and I assume the K Track design as well, though I don't have turnouts in K Track) is such that it is intended that in the gaps in the rail where there is a crossing/turnout opening, the wheel rides ON ITS FLANGE through that gap. The wheel flange stays in contact with the metal plate in that gap and rolls smoothly through. Shorter wheel flanges on DC wheelsets, and the wheel will dip into the gap.

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline mbarreto  
#14 Posted : 07 April 2019 13:34:02(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

An idea about remove axles that are not so easy to remove: lower the temperature of them and try after.
To lower the temperature you can put the wagon in the refrigerator for example.
As they are metal they will shorten a bit in the cold and probably it will be easier.
Yesterday I did the opposite to open a metal lid of a gallipot that was in the refrigerator. It was so tight I couldn't turn it to open. I heated it near fire and was easy to open after that.

Regards,
Miguel
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline dickinsonj  
#15 Posted : 07 April 2019 15:09:43(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post

Sometimes (rare) even Märklin equipment does not run properly on certain pieces of Märklin track.


I find that occasionally myself. I reason that if some Märklin equipment has running problems on some Märklin track/turnouts why complicate it with adding products from another maker? I understand that Märklin's limited selection in some areas makes buying from other companies tempting but keeping everything running smoothly is my primary goal for my MRR.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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