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Offline allany1  
#1 Posted : 08 March 2019 20:24:25(UTC)
allany1

United States   
Joined: 23/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: charlottesville virginia USA
i recently resurrected my Marklin layout and everything so far has worked properly, except for this particular loco, #3670. it did work before being put away. Everything works but this loco. i have checked cantenary switch and cant find anything obviously wrong. i have run google searches etc with no help in basic troubleshooting of Marklin digital engines.
Offline Purellum  
#2 Posted : 08 March 2019 20:44:13(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,899
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 08 March 2019 20:49:04(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 16,403
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


I have now....

I'm surprised that's the only link you supplied!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline Purellum  
#4 Posted : 08 March 2019 21:10:08(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,899
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Laugh

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I'm surprised that's the only link you supplied!


Pure self-restraint LOL Flapper LOL

Per.

Laugh

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline dickinsonj  
#5 Posted : 09 March 2019 01:03:18(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 959
Location: United States
Hey - Welcome to the forum.

This is the place for answers to all of your Märklin questions - just be as specific as possible when posting about things. I have found a lot of help here even when my newbie questions were pretty lame. ThumpUp

Did Per's link answer your question?
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline allany1  
#6 Posted : 09 March 2019 13:23:27(UTC)
allany1

United States   
Joined: 23/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: charlottesville virginia USA
Thanks for the info and link. unfortunately i didnt mess with the wiring or anything like that. Everything on the layout and controller works but this loco is dead although id did work before being put away. wondering about basic checks i could do to test motor or decoder, etc. thanks again
Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 09 March 2019 16:16:00(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,174
Location: Montreal, QC
Question:
What controller are you using? 6021/MS/MS2/CS/CS1/CS2/CS3?
What transformer are you using?

Checklist:

1) Make sure that the power selection switch is set to track or catenary as needed
2) If you have an analog transformer, you can test to see if the locomotive responds to analog signals.
If you do not have an analog transformer, you can connect straight tracks to make a length of approximately two meters.
Put the locomotive at one end, while holding it. Connect the power leads to the brown and yellow terminals and see if the locomotive runs down the track or off the end. Do not let it fall. Cut the power before the locomotive moves more than 360mm (4 track lengths)
If the locomotive moves under this test, it is working in analog.
3) Make sure that the DIP switches are set to the address you are using
4) Do functions (F0) respond (lights on/off)? This would be an indication that the decoder is receiving power, but the motor is not turning.
5) Is there a hum? Does it sound like the motor is straining.

Here are the possibilities:

A) Normally, a lok in analog mode will speed off when placed on a digital track. If the lok stands still, it is either in digital mode or there is a problem.
B) There may be loose wiring inside the locomotive. Check the leads from the slider and ground to the decoder and the leads from the decoder to the motor.
You can also inspect the decoder to see if there are visible signs of heat damage/short. If any is found, you may need to replace the decoder.
C) If the lights work, but the motor does not and there is a hum or sounds of straining, it may be that the oil has hardened and the motor or drive is incapable of turning
DO NOT TURN THE WHEELS BY HAND. THIS COULD DAMAGE THE SIDE RODS AND OTHER COMPONENTS
Report back on your observations here. We will try to assess, but if there are still any problems after that, my recommendation would be to contact Scott at Helmut's Hobby in Warrenton, VA, which hopefully is not too far from you.

Regards

Mike C
Offline allany1  
#8 Posted : 09 March 2019 19:02:48(UTC)
allany1

United States   
Joined: 23/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: charlottesville virginia USA
Hi Mike,

Thanks so much for all the great info. i did have another transformer and ran the engine as analog. is there a switch to take this from analog to digital or is that done automatically? maybe thats my problem. motor was sluggish but engine ran back and forth. im sure it needs a cleaning and oil job. i tried changing code # to see if that would help. all the wires seem correct and no obvious signs of damage or short. functions did not respond. I am using a 6021 controller which is running 6 other engines fine.

allan
Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 09 March 2019 19:15:53(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,092
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: allany1 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Mike,

Thanks so much for all the great info. i did have another transformer and ran the engine as analog. is there a switch to take this from analog to digital or is that done automatically? maybe thats my problem. motor was sluggish but engine ran back and forth. im sure it needs a cleaning and oil job. i tried changing code # to see if that would help. all the wires seem correct and no obvious signs of damage or short. functions did not respond. I am using a 6021 controller which is running 6 other engines fine.

allan


If all the digital address switches are in the 'off' position it is analogue only. But many of the decoders will switch automatically between analogue and digital modes, and as it appears you did this analogue test with a digital address set it appears that this is a decoder that will automatically switch.

As to getting it running in digital mode I would suggest doing the following: -

1. Work all the switches back and forth three or four times. The address switches are known to sometimes get a bit oxidised with age and working them back and forth polishes the mating surfaces so the make good contact again.

2. Now look up the default switch positions in the handbook that comes with the loco. Set the switches to match this, and now try the loco with the digital controller using the address given in the manual. I don't see any advantage in playing with the switches unless you specifically need to change the address because it conflicts with another loco you have on the layout. Life tends to become a lot easier if you leave them set to the default address. If the loco will not now run on the digital controller you have a problem with the decoder.

Offline allany1  
#10 Posted : 09 March 2019 19:44:12(UTC)
allany1

United States   
Joined: 23/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: charlottesville virginia USA
Thanks for the quick reply. i have a 6080 decoder. flipped switches back and forth and reset code to default (4). checked solder joints, etc still no luck. very little use on this loco and did work before putting in storage.
Offline cookee_nz  
#11 Posted : 10 March 2019 01:47:41(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,876
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: allany1 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the quick reply. i have a 6080 decoder. flipped switches back and forth and reset code to default (4). checked solder joints, etc still no luck. very little use on this loco and did work before putting in storage.


You need to help us here, to help you. Mike already asked what Controller you are using? That will aid troubleshooting considerably.

But how I would approach it....

1: It's an E-Lok - is the switch set to Track or Overhead pickup? - very easy to bump this lever by accident

2: Does the Loco still run on Analogue? - if you still have a conventional Trafo it is worth checking. Those older ones will respond to the analogue power without any changes

* If it does run (with speed control), problem is most likely Digital in nature - failed Decoder or Controller/Wiring problem.

If it runs, but at a constant speed without any speed control, check track Polarity - Red to center stud, brown to outer rails. We've had a few lately where this has been the problem.

** If it does not run, problem is in the Loco, Decoder, motor wiring, or Motor itself. I would start with the motor because the wiring is unlikely to have failed unless there's a broken wire but the pickup wire may have broken - can you try from the overhead) attach a wire to the Panto if you don't actually have Catenary.

3: Do the wheels and motor turn freely? - you may simply have hardened oil which has effectively become a glue. Easiest thing is to remove the motor brushes and try turning the gears from the motor down, this is better than trying to hand-force the wheels. You can try a small screwdriver between the gear teeth and a gentle twist to turn them slightly - be careful not to scratch the hears.

If the gear train started quite stiff but them became more free, you have possibly now freed the bond that was locking it. Put the brushes back in and try again. You 'might' get away with simply adding a small drop of oil to both armature bearings and the gears and wheel axles and run it a while to work the oil in. But if you cannot free the gears or they are very gummy, you may need to strip the motor, clean and flush the old oil out.

4: If you do not have a conventional controller, test the loco functions. ie the Headlight function is the most basic level. Set the correct address, and try turning the headlight on and off - if it responds, you know the address is good, and the Decoder probably is ok and the Controller is working.

If none of these work, it's probably best to get it looked at.

Cheers

Steve
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 10 March 2019 15:15:55(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,092
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: allany1 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the quick reply. i have a 6080 decoder. flipped switches back and forth and reset code to default (4). checked solder joints, etc still no luck. very little use on this loco and did work before putting in storage.


You need to help us here, to help you. Mike already asked what Controller you are using? That will aid troubleshooting considerably.


You need to read the WHOLE thread cookee, he has already said it runs on analogue, so that eliminates most of the things you posted.

About the only one I hadn't touched on is making sure the brown and red wires are connected the correct way round.

Offline allany1  
#13 Posted : 10 March 2019 20:45:34(UTC)
allany1

United States   
Joined: 23/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: charlottesville virginia USA
Yes, engine runs in analog. no response from function keys. wire connections look good and solid. Very little run time on this loco. is there a testing procedure for decoder?
Offline cookee_nz  
#14 Posted : 11 March 2019 06:24:24(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2,876
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: allany1 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the quick reply. i have a 6080 decoder. flipped switches back and forth and reset code to default (4). checked solder joints, etc still no luck. very little use on this loco and did work before putting in storage.


You need to help us here, to help you. Mike already asked what Controller you are using? That will aid troubleshooting considerably.


You need to read the WHOLE thread cookee, he has already said it runs on analogue, so that eliminates most of the things you posted.

About the only one I hadn't touched on is making sure the brown and red wires are connected the correct way round.



Thanks Alan, I did miss response #8 where he said it ran analogue and that he's using a 6021 - despite reading it through twice.

Sometimes you just can't see the wood for the trees Blushing

Runs Analogue does rule out much of what I wrote, never mind, someone else may find it useful one day.

Wasn't there some issue with the 4 coding switches on the back of the 6021 messing something up? (compatibility with something) - I don't have a 6021 so I've never needed to worry about it but if runs all his others Locos ok so that's unlikely. Sounds like a candidate for a new Decoder and some new features.

Cheers
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline sjbartels  
#15 Posted : 11 March 2019 06:31:21(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 901
Sounds like a plain and simple dead Delta decoder to me. Being the Re 460 collector I am and thus coming across a lot of Delta decoders, many ran analogue (and thus bypassing the decoder) and would not work digitally, despite even being new old stock in box and never run. I actually question the decoder from radio interference etc, Long story short, I think your decoder is fried
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline allany1  
#16 Posted : 11 March 2019 11:16:55(UTC)
allany1

United States   
Joined: 23/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: charlottesville virginia USA
Thanks for all the help. should i just replace with same decoder or replace with something better?? ive been out of the Marklin loop for quite a while.

allan
Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 11 March 2019 23:51:11(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,092
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: allany1 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for all the help. should i just replace with same decoder or replace with something better?? ive been out of the Marklin loop for quite a while.

allan


The best (and probably cheapest) option will be to get one of the new decoders from this years Marklin New Items. A decoder is introduced there that will work with AC motors. There are a handful of other manufacturers offering decoders that work with AC motors, but I don't know how good they are or what their running characteristics are like.

Any other option will require replacing the armature and magnet to convert the motor to DC. This will allow the use of the Marklin mld/3 (non-sound) or msd/3 (sound) or ESU Lokpilot (non-sound) or Loksound (sound) decoders - again with offerings from other manufacturers as well. Going this route will produce a much better running loco with much lower minimum speed and smoother acceleration and braking.

The choice comes down to how much you wish to spend.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline dickinsonj  
#18 Posted : 12 March 2019 02:44:53(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 959
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

Any other option will require replacing the armature and magnet to convert the motor to DC. This will allow the use of the Marklin mld/3 (non-sound) or msd/3 (sound) or ESU Lokpilot (non-sound) or Loksound (sound) decoders - again with offerings from other manufacturers as well. Going this route will produce a much better running loco with much lower minimum speed and smoother acceleration and braking.

The choice comes down to how much you wish to spend.

As Alan says, it all comes down to how much you wish to spend. AJCKids is a good source for both the hardware and for information when buying here in the US.

I would convert the motor to DC operation myself. The kits to do that are not expensive and the ESU decoders and 3rd generation Märklin decoders are both quite good, although neither are inexpensive. The running characteristics are vastly improved when you fit a current generation decoder and it will make an older loco run as well as a very expensive new one.

I have been upgrading to Märklin mSD/3 sound decoders myself and find them quite good. The cost of the motor upgrade kit and the sound decoder would be about $125 USD or with a non sound decoder about $65 USD. Equivalent ESU decoders are a bit more but are even more configurable. To load sounds specific to your loco onto either decoder requires adding the programming environment, which is a good bit less expensive with the märklin decoders than for the ESU ones.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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