Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Hi guys Everyone knows what a block is, especially when using PC software to control the train. I use Itrain. In the explanation of the booster 60175, I saw a graphic where a canton is divided in two for the electric current. I wonder if this is correct, because I fear that with Itrain it could be a problem. I asked the question about Itrain on the forum. I must admit that splitting a canton in two for the contribution of power does not excite me much I would like to hear your opinions Thank you Thewolf |
Project Estrie Rail Road-CS3-Track C- Itrain-Digital |
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Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Hi guys Everyone knows what a block is, especially when using PC software to control the train. I use Itrain. In the explanation of the booster 60175, I saw a graphic where a canton is divided in two for the electric current. I wonder if this is correct, because I fear that with Itrain it could be a problem. I asked the question about Itrain on the forum. I must admit that splitting a canton in two for the contribution of power does not excite me much I would like to hear your opinions Thank you Thewolf Hello Serge, what do you understand by a canton? I do not understand your question completly, but have you seen this newly issued Märklin technical information? https://www.maerklin.de/...e/technical-information/Meanwhile even in French available. Perhaps it gives you an answer. https://www.maerklin.de/...he_Sicherheit_FR__3_.pdfCiao TEEWolf
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Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,489 Location: Lyon, France
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Hello Serge, First, for English readers, a "canton" in French is like a block. Second, when you use a PC to drive your layout under automatic (or manual) control, there are blocks everywhere, except where are located the switches ... and this later assertion can also be discussed, but it becomes more complex. So for sake of simplicity, let's assume you have block everywhere, and switches don't belong to blocks. Third, if you use boosters for tracks, that means you have more locos than a single power block can feed. As a result, the main question is where to put the separation between B1 (Booster 1 or CS power) and B2 (Booster 2) ? Answer, in my opinion: -Not between switches : it is too risky if you get a derailment, with a risk the slider touches B1 & B2 for a long time thus generating a short -What remains: Blocks of course ! but not just anywhere : You must place the separation of power (B1 | B2) at a place in a block where the loco runs at a normal speed, in order the transition between the 2 power lines is short (let's say less that 1 or 2 seconds). The best place would be just after the 1st sensor where the loco enters the block, and so has not really slowed down a lot... A compromise would be to set the separation in the middle of the block, for instance... Of course, never put the separation where the loco stops, and more generally where a slider stops !!! Example in TrossingenIII  The separation between B1 and B2 is the middle of each block B-He1 and B-He2 (on the right side of the plan). HTH Fabrice
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: TEEWolf  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Hi guys Everyone knows what a block is, especially when using PC software to control the train. I use Itrain. In the explanation of the booster 60175, I saw a graphic where a canton is divided in two for the electric current. I wonder if this is correct, because I fear that with Itrain it could be a problem. I asked the question about Itrain on the forum. I must admit that splitting a canton in two for the contribution of power does not excite me much I would like to hear your opinions Thank you Thewolf Hello Serge, what do you understand by a canton? I do not understand your question completly, but have you seen this newly issued Märklin technical information? https://www.maerklin.de/...e/technical-information/Meanwhile even in French available. Perhaps it gives you an answer. https://www.maerklin.de/...he_Sicherheit_FR__3_.pdfCiao TEEWolf Hi Wolfgang I'll explain to you what a block is for Itrain: This is the portion of the rails between two switches. Here are my different blocks from the top of my layout:  See block 24, 25, etc... In the manual of the booster 60175, we see this:  Check the inner track: the block between 2 switches is divided. That's what worries me a little bit about my configuration . And I have another much more important problem: my switches on the rail sections electrified by booster 2 and 3 do not work. The information given (amperage, volts) in the cs2 is correct for boosters 2 and 3. The tracks sections of boosters 2 and 3 provide 12.5 volts of current everywhere, including on the switch tracks. The switch motors do not work. I'm dismantling the sect's switch. I'm dismantling the switch in sector booster 2 or 3. I reconnect it to the booster 1 or cs2 sector: the switch works. I visited your links. Thank you . I have 4 transformers 60065 for the cs2 and 3 boosters. I installed what Mike sold me. I don't know, but I understood that I have a problem after I read your links. I'm an accountant, not an electrician. I wonder if I have installed the necessary number of 74030. In your links, I read that you had to isolate the two sections by 4 x 74030. I'm going to reread it again. To see you later Serge |
Project Estrie Rail Road-CS3-Track C- Itrain-Digital |
 1 user liked this useful post by Thewolf
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice  Hello Serge, First, for English readers, a "canton" in French is like a block. Second, when you use a PC to drive your layout under automatic (or manual) control, there are blocks everywhere, except where are located the switches ... and this later assertion can also be discussed, but it becomes more complex. So for sake of simplicity, let's assume you have block everywhere, and switches don't belong to blocks. Third, if you use boosters for tracks, that means you have more locos than a single power block can feed. As a result, the main question is where to put the separation between B1 (Booster 1 or CS power) and B2 (Booster 2) ? Answer, in my opinion: -Not between switches : it is too risky if you get a derailment, with a risk the slider touches B1 & B2 for a long time thus generating a short -What remains: Blocks of course ! but not just anywhere : You must place the separation of power (B1 | B2) at a place in a block where the loco runs at a normal speed, in order the transition between the 2 power lines is short (let's say less that 1 or 2 seconds). The best place would be just after the 1st sensor where the loco enters the block, and so has not really slowed down a lot... A compromise would be to set the separation in the middle of the block, for instance... Of course, never put the separation where the loco stops, and more generally where a slider stops !!! Example in TrossingenIII  The separation between B1 and B2 is the middle of each block B-He1 and B-He2 (on the right side of the plan). HTH Fabrice Hello Fabrice Thank you . I thought you were going to answer me. I read your comment carefully. My separations between booster, cs2 are made in the middle of the block, far from the switches and far from the locomotive stops. My blocks are long. As I explained to Wolfgang: the current is correct on each section of each power provider. I only have a problem in the sections of boosters 2 and 3: my switches do not work even if the voltage seems correct And tomorrow starts renovation week: no more train for a week. Merde. Shit Serge |
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Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,489 Location: Lyon, France
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Hello Serge,
If you have 12.5V, then something is wrong. Booster voltage should be between 18 and 19V, or you have misspelled the value ?
How many Switches & signals are on the layout ? Do you have a booster dedicated to drive Switches, Signals, M83, M84 and so on. If not, that may be a solution to your issue. The wiring is much more simpler...
Cheers fabrice
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice  Hello Serge,
If you have 12.5V, then something is wrong. Booster voltage should be between 18 and 19V, or you have misspelled the value ?
How many Switches & signals are on the layout ? Do you have a booster dedicated to drive Switches, Signals, M83, M84 and so on. If not, that may be a solution to your issue. The wiring is much more simpler...
Cheers fabrice Hello Fabrice, The information on the cs2: Booster 2 : 19 V Booster 1: 18.8 V Booster 3: 18.6 V CS2: 18.6 V With my MAS830B on the 72090; B2: 12.8 V B1: 12.3 V B3: 13.1 V cs2: 12.3 V idem on the tracks of each sector Maybe a problem of 74030 (insulation) between sections ??? To isolate I only put 2 x 74030 on the inside of the tracks (insulation of the central studs). I have to read again the links that Wolfgang gave me: I read in haste that in category 3 you have to isolate with 4 x 74030 but I think I am in category 2. Well I guess. I like your suggestion to give a booster to the M84 and M83 which will operate 21 signals and 16 uncouplers, as long as the second booster given to the tracks operates the switches, which is not the case at the moment . Switches with integrated decoder are connected to the cs2 Serge |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Hi Fabrice Wolfgang and the gang I have read the links that Wolfgang gave me and if I understood correctly, my layout is in category 2 and for this purpose, within this business unit, a common return conductor can be used for the different areas of the network. So, my cs 2 and 3 booster can use the track masse as a common return conductor. My layout therefore uses for the power supply 3 converters ref. 60061 in total for the CS 2 and the 3 boosters. This results in a total possible power of 4 x 60 VA = 240 VA. Category 2 VA from 120 to 300 VA At all transition points, the insulation of the central conductor is sufficient. I will review the separations on the layout and find a better separation layout and maybe buy a 4th booster only for the M84 and M83 but in this case it is necessary to check if the use of a 60822 with his converter is not more advantageous. Good evening Thewolf |
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Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Hi Fabrice Wolfgang and the gang I have read the links that Wolfgang gave me and if I understood correctly, my layout is in category 2 and for this purpose, within this business unit, a common return conductor can be used for the different areas of the network. So, my cs 2 and 3 booster can use the track masse as a common return conductor. My layout therefore uses for the power supply 3 converters ref. 60061 in total for the CS 2 and the 3 boosters. This results in a total possible power of 4 x 60 VA = 240 VA. Category 2 VA from 120 to 300 VA At all transition points, the insulation of the central conductor is sufficient. I will review the separations on the layout and find a better separation layout and maybe buy a 4th booster only for the M84 and M83 but in this case it is necessary to check if the use of a 60822 with his converter is not more advantageous. Good evening Thewolf For a power supply of your decoders M83 and/or M84 you do not need a new booster. You can get a 60822 universal powers supply unit https://static.maerklin....26ebe6266d1487855273.pdfand a regular power supply 66360. https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/66360See on top of the system architecture of Märklin digital https://www.maerklin.de/...Gesamt%C3%BCbersicht.pdfAs talked before, you can add up the decoders, but do not set a cable between the devices. ciao TEEWolf
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: TEEWolf  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Hi Fabrice Wolfgang and the gang I have read the links that Wolfgang gave me and if I understood correctly, my layout is in category 2 and for this purpose, within this business unit, a common return conductor can be used for the different areas of the network. So, my cs 2 and 3 booster can use the track masse as a common return conductor. My layout therefore uses for the power supply 3 converters ref. 60061 in total for the CS 2 and the 3 boosters. This results in a total possible power of 4 x 60 VA = 240 VA. Category 2 VA from 120 to 300 VA At all transition points, the insulation of the central conductor is sufficient. I will review the separations on the layout and find a better separation layout and maybe buy a 4th booster only for the M84 and M83 but in this case it is necessary to check if the use of a 60822 with his converter is not more advantageous. Good evening Thewolf For a power supply of your decoders M83 and/or M84 you do not need a new booster. You can get a 60822 universal powers supply unit https://static.maerklin....26ebe6266d1487855273.pdfand a regular power supply 66360. https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/66360See on top of the system architecture of Märklin digital https://www.maerklin.de/...Gesamt%C3%BCbersicht.pdfAs talked before, you can add up the decoders, but do not set a cable between the devices. ciao TEEWolf Hello Wolfgang And what do I do with the two boosters? My name is Serge, not Croesus I'm currently thinking about a new electrical layout. I want to do this: A) Booster 2 and 3 : I have two sets of M84-M83s grouped together but in two different places under the layout: 1 x M83 + 3 x M84 on the right of the layout (1) 1 x M83 + 3 x M84 on the left of the layout (2) I would like to assign booster 2 to (1) and booster 3 to (2) B) Booster 1 and cs2 : The hidden part will be managed by booster 1 and the visible part (the top) by cs2 I'll think about it. C) And above all, don't forget (as I often have this kind of distraction) to apply this scheme that Fabrice sent me a long time ago. I had totally forgotten that this time.  Have a nice day Serge |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Project Estrie Rail Road-CS3-Track C- Itrain-Digital |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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I don't get it Why do you want 2 boosters to supply your M83s and M84s, when you can supply them with DC from a 60822 + a 66360 ? Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  I don't get it Why do you want 2 boosters to supply your M83s and M84s, when you can supply them with DC from a 60822 + a 66360 ? Per. Hi Per I wrote several times that I had 3 boosters....I might as well use it Thewolf |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  I wrote several times that I had 3 boosters....I might as well use it Using the same logic, I might as well use diesel on my gasoline powered car, since I have a few cans of diesel. I'm trying to help you; but I have a hard time figuring out what your problems are and what you have. At first you have 4 times 60065, then you have 3 times 60061; but multiply by 4 when calculating the power. Measuring the voltage, using you MAS830B multimeter only adds to the confusion, since you get wrong results. Your CS and booster_1 is working fine, and your booster_2 and booster_3 are not working fine, if I understand you correct? I think you should try to take the things step by step, instead of jumping into everything at once. Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  I wrote several times that I had 3 boosters....I might as well use it Using the same logic, I might as well use diesel on my gasoline powered car, since I have a few cans of diesel. I'm trying to help you; but I have a hard time figuring out what your problems are and what you have. At first you have 4 times 60065, then you have 3 times 60061; but multiply by 4 when calculating the power. Measuring the voltage, using you MAS830B multimeter only adds to the confusion, since you get wrong results. Your CS and booster_1 is working fine, and your booster_2 and booster_3 are not working fine, if I understand you correct? I think you should try to take the things step by step, instead of jumping into everything at once. Per. Ok ...Okay... I made a mistake writing 60065 instead of 60061. I'm happy for you if you're perfect. I don't understand your reference to diesel because I don't see how I'm making a mistake using 60175s I already have. Buying 60822 and 63365 that you suggested would be a mistake on my part.This morning, I discussed this suggestion with Mike, my friend and delaer Marklin from the Toronto area. Mike is recognized in the Marklin world in our country as a leading specialist. Ask Ontario members who know him. Finally, if I follow your suggestion, what do I do with my 2 unused boosters? Chimney linings? Or a transformer from diesel to gasoline? So, the old system is abandoned. Everything is dismantled. I don't come back and as I wrote in my post 10 and 11, I put together a new concept that will be (and I repeat) the cs2 and the booster 1 for the layout, the boosters 2 and 3 for the M84-M83. However I agree with you for your final point.... although I'm a little busy with time. The spring is coming soon . Have a nice day Thewolf |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  I'm happy for you if you're perfect. I'm not, I just try to figure out what you have now and what you want to have. Last week you wrote a long question about problem, mentioning "74090" several times; but neither my friend Google or Märklin's homepage knows that number. Before I could ask, you posted that the problem was resolved, without a word to tell anyone what was wrong, or how you solved it. A lot of friendly people here are trying to help; but if you don't want to help us to help you, it get really hard. Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Hello Wolfgang And what do I do with the two boosters? My name is Serge, not Croesus I'm currently thinking about a new electrical layout. I want to do this: A) Booster 2 and 3 : I have two sets of M84-M83s grouped together but in two different places under the layout: 1 x M83 + 3 x M84 on the right of the layout (1) 1 x M83 + 3 x M84 on the left of the layout (2) I would like to assign booster 2 to (1) and booster 3 to (2) B) Booster 1 and cs2 : The hidden part will be managed by booster 1 and the visible part (the top) by cs2 I'll think about it. C) And above all, don't forget (as I often have this kind of distraction) to apply this scheme that Fabrice sent me a long time ago. I had totally forgotten that this time. Have a nice day Serge Hello Serge, I thougth you want to buy an extra new booster, just for your m83 and m84 decoders. I see you do a rather great expansion of your layout. Well this needs a new calculation of the needed power for each section. You do not install boosters by needed space, you install them by the needed power. Means you have to calculate the power consumption for the feeded current section. This is not easy, but in the safety and technical informations from Märklin (I set the link a few times), e.g. under system supply are listed a few calculation examples for different layout sizes by the needed electricity. But best will be, you do this with your Märklin specialist an friend Mike together. ciao Wolfgang
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  I'm happy for you if you're perfect. I'm not, I just try to figure out what you have now and what you want to have. Last week you wrote a long question about problem, mentioning "74090" several times; but neither my friend Google or Märklin's homepage knows that number. Before I could ask, you posted that the problem was resolved, without a word to tell anyone what was wrong, or how you solved it. A lot of friendly people here are trying to help; but if you don't want to help us to help you, it get really hard. Per. Per  ...ok  . As you seem to like looking for the little flaw in the other person (I remember your posts with Goofy) I'll answer you in a cool way  : 1) why didn't you ask the question about that little mistake then? I'm sorry if in your eyes distraction is a crime. And I'm distracted. I had to write 72090 2) why didn't I write how I resolve it? The answer is simple: that day, I must have been in a hurry or busy doing something more important. I can't even write that if I haven't explained how I solved this problem, it's because I would be stressed, shocked, angry because of many unanswered questions. Yes, .... many of the questions I asked have remained unanswered, but when they do, I don't make a drama out of them. I understand that we don't always have time. Thewolf |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: TEEWolf  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Hello Wolfgang And what do I do with the two boosters? My name is Serge, not Croesus I'm currently thinking about a new electrical layout. I want to do this: A) Booster 2 and 3 : I have two sets of M84-M83s grouped together but in two different places under the layout: 1 x M83 + 3 x M84 on the right of the layout (1) 1 x M83 + 3 x M84 on the left of the layout (2) I would like to assign booster 2 to (1) and booster 3 to (2) B) Booster 1 and cs2 : The hidden part will be managed by booster 1 and the visible part (the top) by cs2 I'll think about it. C) And above all, don't forget (as I often have this kind of distraction) to apply this scheme that Fabrice sent me a long time ago. I had totally forgotten that this time. Have a nice day Serge Hello Serge, I thougth you want to buy an extra new booster, just for your m83 and m84 decoders. I see you do a rather great expansion of your layout. Well this needs a new calculation of the needed power for each section. You do not install boosters by needed space, you install them by the needed power. Means you have to calculate the power consumption for the feeded current section. This is not easy, but in the safty and technical informations from Märklin (I set the link a few times), e.g. under system supply are listed a few calculation examples of different sizes. But best will be, you do this with your Märklin specialist an friend Mike together. ciao Wolfgang Wolfgang My god...If I follow you correctly, the cs2 and booster 1 would be insufficient for my entire layout? Seriously ? Is it a joke ? I remind you that boosters 2 and 3 are reserved for the M83 and M84. And how is the energy consumption calculated? Wolfgang you must have this in your archives: you are the champion of useful links Serge |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Per  ...ok  . As you seem to like looking for the little flaw in the other person (I remember your posts with Goofy) I'll answer you in a cool way  : 1) why didn't you ask the question about that little mistake then? I'm sorry if in your eyes distraction is a crime. And I'm distracted. I had to write 72090 2) why didn't I write how I resolve it? The answer is simple: that day, I must have been in a hurry or busy doing something more important. I can't even write that if I haven't explained how I solved this problem, it's because I would be stressed, shocked, angry because of many unanswered questions. Yes, .... many of the questions I asked have remained unanswered, but when they do, I don't make a drama out of them. I understand that we don't always have time. Thewolf No, I'm not looking for flaws in other persons; but when I see misinformation, I feel obligated to correct what is wrong. A few members here answers questions, not knowing anything about what is being asked; they just give an answer that is incorrect. At the time when you asked your question mentioning the "74090" I were offshore on a ship, with very poor internet and very limited time, so when I saw that you had solved the problem, I couldn't spend more time trying to figure out what you meant. And since I until now hadn't figured out what you meant, and what you problem was, it still puzzled me and I wanted to know the solution. Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Per  ...ok  . As you seem to like looking for the little flaw in the other person (I remember your posts with Goofy) I'll answer you in a cool way  : 1) why didn't you ask the question about that little mistake then? I'm sorry if in your eyes distraction is a crime. And I'm distracted. I had to write 72090 2) why didn't I write how I resolve it? The answer is simple: that day, I must have been in a hurry or busy doing something more important. I can't even write that if I haven't explained how I solved this problem, it's because I would be stressed, shocked, angry because of many unanswered questions. Yes, .... many of the questions I asked have remained unanswered, but when they do, I don't make a drama out of them. I understand that we don't always have time. Thewolf No, I'm not looking for flaws in other persons; but when I see misinformation, I feel obligated to correct what is wrong. A few members here answers questions, not knowing anything about what is being asked; they just give an answer that is incorrect. At the time when you asked your question mentioning the "74090" I were offshore on a ship, with very poor internet and very limited time, so when I saw that you had solved the problem, I couldn't spend more time trying to figure out what you meant. And since I until now hadn't figured out what you meant, and what you problem was, it still puzzled me and I wanted to know the solution. Per. Ok Per...next time I will not forget to explain the solution I used Thewolf |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  If I follow you correctly,the cs2 and booster 1 would be insufficient for my entire layout? Seriously ? Is it a joke ? I don't remember seeing how many trains you want to run at the same time, which is the information needed. As an example, the first section of Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg had 60 trains running on 5 10A boosters on a 120 square meter layout. 1000 meters of track, 250 switches and 120 signals. Later the learnt to limit all boosters to 3A. https://www.miniatur-wun...rland/worlds/knuffingen/You have 4 boosters, including the one in your CS.............. Per.  |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC) Posts: 2,465
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf   Have a nice day Serge Hello Serge, the pictures shows only the cabling structure of the power devices, but not their consumption. Both is not easy but important. Märklin has several publications made about cabling in the Märklin Magazine, but all are in German and none is calculating the needed power for a layout. First I saw this in their safety regulations. Similar about statements of the needed diameter of a cable. And which profil you shall use for which powered solenoid. I saw a recommendation first time in this book art #03070 https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/03070on pages 63, 84f, 146 (of course only in German) Märklin metioned cross sections between 0,14 mm² and 0,75 mm². But these profiles are important, because they shall act as a fusing for a layout. Or did you read anything about a fuse protection of a Märklin railroad? Well I did, but not by Märklin. It is on a private homepage of a MRR fan. His name is Stefan Krauß http://www.skrauss.de/mo...bahn/autofuse/index.htmlHe developed and wrote a detailed technical article about excess current and a protection against it. He named it Autofuse. http://www.skrauss.de/mo...ahn/autofuse/deluxe.htmlHere are two links as examples about Märklin's publications. https://www.maerklin.de/...Anlage_MM_2013_05_06.pdfhttps://www.maerklin.de/.../MM_Verkabelung_2013.pdfBecause the pictures and plans inside may give you a hint for a further proceeding. But at the end of the day, please discuss it all with your friendly Märklin friend about the current consumption. I myself are not an electrician who is able just to do a quick layout power consumption calculation. But that's what you need for your CS and each booster section. ciao Wolfgang
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  If I follow you correctly,the cs2 and booster 1 would be insufficient for my entire layout? Seriously ? Is it a joke ? I don't remember seeing how many trains you want to run at the same time, which is the information needed. As an example, the first section of Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg had 60 trains running on 5 10A boosters on a 120 square meter layout. 1000 meters of track, 250 switches and 120 signals. Later the learnt to limit all boosters to 3A. https://www.miniatur-wun...rland/worlds/knuffingen/You have 4 boosters, including the one in your CS.............. Per.  Per ...you are right ...the cs2 + 3 boosters = 4. This is Wunderland Canada Yesterday the cs2 and booster 1 work...the switches work...the switches on booster 2 and 3 did not work. Why ? I ask the question ...no answers ! I suppose that the reason why the switches do no work, that is because I forgot by distraction to connect al the '' O '' wires together ( from cs2 and boosters) . For me that's the only reason. Your opinion ? Thewolf |
Project Estrie Rail Road-CS3-Track C- Itrain-Digital |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Yesterday the cs2 and booster 1 work...the switches work...the switches on booster 2 and 3 did not work. Why ? I ask the question ...no answers !
I suppose that the reason why the switches do no work, that is because I forgot by distraction to connect al the '' O '' wires together ( from cs2 and boosters) . For me that's the only reason.
Your opinion ? Yesterday the only information you gave us was more or less this: Originally Posted by: Thewolf  I only have a problem in the sections of boosters 2 and 3: my switches do not work even if the voltage seems correct That is not much information to start finding the error If you now found that you forgot to connect all the "0"s, I think you've found the reason for your problem. Have you connected the "0"s and tested it now ?? Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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But I think really that the cs2 + one booster are enough for the tracks and the M83-84 and certainly for 4 trains
Thewolf |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Yesterday the cs2 and booster 1 work...the switches work...the switches on booster 2 and 3 did not work. Why ? I ask the question ...no answers !
I suppose that the reason why the switches do no work, that is because I forgot by distraction to connect al the '' O '' wires together ( from cs2 and boosters) . For me that's the only reason.
Your opinion ? Yesterday the only information you gave us was more or less this: Originally Posted by: Thewolf  I only have a problem in the sections of boosters 2 and 3: my switches do not work even if the voltage seems correct That is not much information to start finding the error If you now found that you forgot to connect all the "0"s, I think you've found the reason for your problem. Have you connected the "0"s and tested it now ?? Per. This is the answer that I wait since this morning !!!! Ostie de tabarnak !!!! I am going to test tomorrow with all '' O '' connected...I am sure that all will be ok I'm going to go back to my initial configuration Thewolf |
Project Estrie Rail Road-CS3-Track C- Itrain-Digital |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  But I think really that the cs2 + one booster are enough for the tracks and the M83-84 and certainly for 4 trains I'm 110% sure it will be enough power. Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Here's Mike's reminder to the distracted man I am: “O” is the ground return (common). When the booster is connected to the tracks on the “B” is insulated. The “O” is common and provides the ground return. Connect all “O” together and try it again. Mike Sorge Westend Trains Inc. www.westendtrains.com17 Arnold St. Etobicoke, ON M8Z 5A5 Canada T: 416.251.6124 F: 416.251.1637 Thank you to Per, Wolfgang and Fabrice. I know that I am a '' ostie de chialeux '' as we say in Quebec Have a nice evening Serge |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Hi guys Don't ask me how I feel. I'm cursed. I made all the connections of the wires'''0'' together (cs2 and boosters). The switches under cs2 and booster 1 work The switches under boosters 2 and 2 do not work. A brief return to square one. Well... I'm going to go for a walk in a bar of ''naked dancers'' to calm my nerves Thewolf |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  The switches under boosters 2 and 2 do not work. Please disconnect the 2 boosters, and connect each of them individually to each just one switch, not connected to anything else. Per. PS: Originally Posted by: Thewolf  I'm going to go for a walk in a bar of ''naked dancers'' Pictures please |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,475 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Hi guys Last night, I did a test drive with an E10. It runs on the 4 sectors....but on the sectors managed by booster 2 and 3, it loses its power, I would say at least 60%. In addition, the loco functions do not work on booster sectors 2 and 3. To stop it in these areas, I must use the cs2 emergency stop. For me, it is obvious that if the locomotive functions do not work under Booster 2 and 3, my signals and disconnectors under M84 and M83 will not work. But before claiming an exchange under warranty, I will test the M83-M84s under booster 2 and 3. Then based on the results, I'll talk to Mike. Have a nice day Thewolf |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Project Estrie Rail Road-CS3-Track C- Itrain-Digital |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  But before claiming an exchange under warranty, I will test the M83-M84s under booster 2 and 3. I would suggest that you until you get everything to work, divide your layout into 4 totally separate layouts, and get them working. Only then can we help you figure out what is wrong. Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  But before claiming an exchange under warranty, I will test the M83-M84s under booster 2 and 3. I would suggest that you until you get everything to work, divide your layout into 4 totally separate layouts, and get them working. Only then can we help you figure out what is wrong. Per. Per, The layout is already divided into four. But I can do something else for example: make more "pronounced" divisions by removing a rail between each division and rolling the loco on each part individually. I am going to test this Serge |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  But I can do something else for example: make more "pronounced" divisions by removing a rail between each division and rolling the loco on each part individually. Yes, that was what i meant. We have to figure out if the problem is the boosters or the wiring. Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  But I can do something else for example: make more "pronounced" divisions by removing a rail between each division and rolling the loco on each part individually. Yes, that was what i meant. We have to figure out if the problem is the boosters or the wiring. Per. Per, I think that this is a wiring problem. Here the Mike's answer this moring a few minutes ago : ''Hi Serge, That is a problem. You need to fix that first. When a loco can run properly in all 4 sections then we can move on to the rest of the problems with the switches. I used your CS and all 3 boosters to test run a loco and it worked perfectly so there must be a problem with your connections'' Serge |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Per,
I think that this is a wiring problem.
Here the Mike's answer this moring a few minutes ago :
''Hi Serge, That is a problem.You need to fix that first.When a loco can run properly in all 4 sections then we can move on to the rest of the problems with the switches. I used your CS and all 3 boosters to test run a loco and it worked perfectly so there must be a problem with your connections''
Serge I think you and Mike are right, and the easiest way to find the problem is IMHO to isolate the layout parts. I think Mike is basically suggesting the same thing, just using other words. ( I actually think that you have swapped "B" and "0" on some of your track connections. ) Per.  |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Per,
I think that this is a wiring problem.
Here the Mike's answer this moring a few minutes ago :
''Hi Serge, That is a problem.You need to fix that first.When a loco can run properly in all 4 sections then we can move on to the rest of the problems with the switches. I used your CS and all 3 boosters to test run a loco and it worked perfectly so there must be a problem with your connections''
Serge I think you and Mike are right, and the easiest way to find the problem is IMHO to isolate the layout parts. I think Mike is basically suggesting the same thing, just using other words. ( I actually think that you have swapped "B" and "0" on some of your track connections. ) Per.  Per, I do a new installation from the tracks to 72090 of the''B'' and''O'' and 60175-2 and -3. I even install new sockets. The wire is 0.14 mm2., even between the different''0''. There will be 0.75 mm2 of the 72090 boosters at the M83-M84 but it will be for later. I have a big problem to solve before. Serge |
Project Estrie Rail Road-CS3-Track C- Itrain-Digital |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  I have a big problem to solve before. Good luck Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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However, I wonder: could the distance between the different boosters play a role? Boosters 2 and 3 are placed 250cm from the second terminal 60145 which itself is placed more than 360cm from the first 60145. Booster 1 is placed 200 cm from terminal 1 Serge |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  However, I wonder: could the distance between the different boosters play a role? Boosters 2 and 3 are placed 250cm from the second terminal 60145 which itself is placed more than 360cm from the first 60145. Booster 1 is placed 200 cm from terminal 1 Serge This should absolutely not be a problem. CAN bus standard specifications says 40 - 1000 meters, depending on data transfer speed. ( Edit: Märklin says maximum 100 meters, data rate is 250 Kbit/s. ) Please isolate so you can test each booster section separately Per.  |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,051
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The distance shouldn't be a problem. I have 3 boosters that are connected to the CS2 by a 125 terminal, then 6X2 meter extension cables, then two more 125's. that is at least 18 meters. Everything works fine. If the booster that works is connected to the booster port on the CS2 and the others are connected by a 125 terminal it sounds like something is wrong with the 125 connection.
Regards, Roger |
Modeling Immensee, mile/km 0 on the Gottard. SBB Era V.
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: rbw993  The distance shouldn't be a problem. I have 3 boosters that are connected to the CS2 by a 125 terminal, then 6X2 meter extension cables, then two more 125's. that is at least 18 meters. Everything works fine. If the booster that works is connected to the booster port on the CS2 and the others are connected by a 125 terminal it sounds like something is wrong with the 125 connection.
Regards, Roger Hi Roger If the 60145 was defective, the control led of the 60175 would not be bright red like the 2 leds of boosters 2 and 3 that I have. Well, I suppose so. Regards Thewolf |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Well, this is not a wiring problem in the sections of booster 2 and 3.
The test I idi : I connected the wiring from booster 1 to the sections of boosters 2 and 3.
Everything worked...the locomotive and switches...until a certain point.
I had a disconnection from the cs2: overload problem. The loco passed on an insulated rail for axle detection...and oops stop and mention on the cs2. It will be for later.
So I think it's a booster problem, right?
So I'm gonna talk to Mike.
Thewolf |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Well, this is not a wiring problem in the sections of booster 2 and 3. I'm not sure you're right. Originally Posted by: Thewolf 
The test I idi : I connected the wiring from booster 1 to the sections of boosters 2 and 3.
Good. Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Everything worked...the locomotive and switches...until a certain point.
I had a disconnection from the cs2: overload problem. The loco passed on an insulated rail for axle detection...and oops stop and mention on the cs2. It will be for later.
So I think it's a booster problem, right? This makes me sure it's a wiring problem. It looks like the "B" ( pukos ) are somehow "connected" ( as in not meant to be connected; but connected by error ) to the isolated track piece. It could just be a bend tongue on one of the "0" connections under the track, touching a "B" part of the connectors. I would still divide your layout into 4 separate layouts, without any axle detection connected, and make your locos run and your switches switch without any problems. Regarding my last two lines: I feel like I'm repeating myself Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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Originally Posted by: Purellum  Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Well, this is not a wiring problem in the sections of booster 2 and 3. I'm not sure you're right. Originally Posted by: Thewolf 
The test I idi : I connected the wiring from booster 1 to the sections of boosters 2 and 3.
Good. Originally Posted by: Thewolf  Everything worked...the locomotive and switches...until a certain point.
I had a disconnection from the cs2: overload problem. The loco passed on an insulated rail for axle detection...and oops stop and mention on the cs2. It will be for later.
So I think it's a booster problem, right? This makes me sure it's a wiring problem. It looks like the "B" ( pukos ) are somehow "connected" ( as in not meant to be connected; but connected by error ) to the isolated track piece. It could just be a bend tongue on one of the "0" connections under the track, touching a "B" part of the connectors. I would still divide your layout into 4 separate layouts, without any axle detection connected, and make your locos run and your switches switch without any problems. Regarding my last two lines: I feel like I'm repeating myself Per. Per, I will try to be more explicit. The 4 sections during the test were individual... 1 track 24188 was missing between sections...so they were not common. The loco rolled over each section...at the end of the section...I took it and dropped it off on the next section. The little problem I had was solved as follows: I replaced the isolated track with a normal track. Section 1 was managed by cs2...sections 2 by booster 1 (this is its initial section) and sections 2 (initial booster 2) and 3 (initial booster 3) by the connection from booster 1 Everything was working... so I say that the non-functionality of boosters 2 and 3 does not come from my track wiring, because it works under booster 1 I know perfectly well that the small overload problem comes from the wiring. I've known dozens of them. Serge |
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Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,078 Location: Cowansville, QC
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The last test I'm going to do:
- I will go up with new tracks the 2 sections of boosters 2 and 3 without the isolated tracks for the detection by axles. In the past, I had no trouble making these damn isolated calisse tracks.
- I have individual sections made . -each section will have its own energy supply
I'll see at the autopsy as they say in the Walloon cottages
Thewolf |
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