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Offline kamstutz  
#1 Posted : 30 November 2018 22:52:50(UTC)
kamstutz

United States   
Joined: 27/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 165
Location: Orlando, FL
I was looking through my 1951 Maerklin catalog and I noticed an interesting drawing on page 41 (also 1950 catalog on page 37) - that of a CCS800 crocodile pulling a long line of freight cars. Here is a cut out clipping from that catalog. (Click on the image to see a larger version)

Marklin1951-b.jpg

Based on the drawing and the product line-up in 1951 I believe that I have come up with the model numbers for the consist of this freight train. Here is my best guess. Should you have better guesses on some of these please feel free to comment.

  1. CCS800 - (SBB crocodile)
  2. 310 - (green luggage van)
  3. 312b - (Covered/Closed Goods van with flat roof)
  4. 325 "Gambrinus" - (Beer van "Gambrinus" with brakesman's cabin, white)
  5. 320/312b? - (Closed goods wagon)
  6. 322 - (Covered wagon)
  7. 311sb (brown open goods wagon with white stones)
  8. 361G - (Lumber truck (2 x 2 axle platforms))
  9. 316b - (Closed freight wagon)
  10. 314E - ("Esso" tank wagon with rectangle logos)
  11. 324 "Kuhlwagen" - (white refridgerated van)
  12. 322 - (covered wagon - as in wagon #5?)
  13. 311Hb - (open goods wagon with plastic logs insert)
  14. 332 - (4 axle box car with sliding doors)
  15. 311Kg - (green open goods wagon with coal load)
  16. 334E - (4 axle "Esso" tank wagon)
  17. 311kg? - (green open goods wagon with coal load)


A couple of these are just guesses since it's a bit difficult to make out some of the cars, but I think I'm pretty close. Checking my collection I came up with almost all of these (I didn't have a duplicate #322 so I used a #393 instead). I put the train together and gave it a run around my layout. Here's a short video of the entire train.



Conclusion: As powerful as the CCS800 is it does (did) have trouble pulling this 16 car train - especially going up and down grades. The die cast cars are very heavy and because of the "stubby" axles their rolling efficiency is not very good (in comparison with today's "cone" type axles). When going uphill I'll bet that the CCS800 would have struggled since at that time (1950/1951) the croc still didn't have traction tires, which, according to Koll's, only appeared in 1957. My CCS800 has traction tires and still had difficulty. When going downhill I noticed that the weight of the cars pushing against each other caused numerous derailments. So while lovely to look at in the catalog I rather doubt that this train was very viable.

Still a fun experiment and a good learning experience by hunting down these models. Anyone else modelled something from a catalog?

Kurt

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Online kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 30 November 2018 23:17:41(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,961
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: kamstutz Go to Quoted Post

The die cast cars are very heavy and because of the "stubby" axles their rolling efficiency is not very good (in comparison with today's "cone" type axles). When going uphill I'll bet that the CCS800 would have struggled since at that time (1950/1951) the croc still didn't have traction tires,


I remember that picture in the catalogues ... I think it appeared in a number of publications.

I wonder when the last time you lubricated those stub axles. They are metal on metal which will have a fair drag, and the merest spot of oil will make a very big difference. Just getting a tiny drop on the end of a needle and touching the hole the stub axle rolls in will be more than enough oil.

The cone end axles run in a plastic housing which is much more free running as this tends to be somewhat "self lubricating" in that the surface of the plastic is quite slippery.

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Online cookee_nz  
#3 Posted : 01 December 2018 05:08:52(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kamstutz Go to Quoted Post

The die cast cars are very heavy and because of the "stubby" axles their rolling efficiency is not very good (in comparison with today's "cone" type axles). When going uphill I'll bet that the CCS800 would have struggled since at that time (1950/1951) the croc still didn't have traction tires,


I remember that picture in the catalogues ... I think it appeared in a number of publications.

I wonder when the last time you lubricated those stub axles. They are metal on metal which will have a fair drag, and the merest spot of oil will make a very big difference. Just getting a tiny drop on the end of a needle and touching the hole the stub axle rolls in will be more than enough oil.

The cone end axles run in a plastic housing which is much more free running as this tends to be somewhat "self lubricating" in that the surface of the plastic is quite slippery.



That's exactly what I was thinking so I'm glad you suggested it.

As well as the improved rolling of the wheels, I'm picking you'll also find a considerable reduction in noise from the consist.

Do the oiling and make another video BigGrin
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline Michael4  
#4 Posted : 01 December 2018 09:21:45(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 400
Location: England, South Coast
I see catenary masts for bridges...they seem to be very rare and always expensive!
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Offline kamstutz  
#5 Posted : 03 December 2018 04:31:41(UTC)
kamstutz

United States   
Joined: 27/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 165
Location: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kamstutz Go to Quoted Post

The die cast cars are very heavy and because of the "stubby" axles their rolling efficiency is not very good (in comparison with today's "cone" type axles). When going uphill I'll bet that the CCS800 would have struggled since at that time (1950/1951) the croc still didn't have traction tires,


I remember that picture in the catalogues ... I think it appeared in a number of publications.

I wonder when the last time you lubricated those stub axles. They are metal on metal which will have a fair drag, and the merest spot of oil will make a very big difference. Just getting a tiny drop on the end of a needle and touching the hole the stub axle rolls in will be more than enough oil.

The cone end axles run in a plastic housing which is much more free running as this tends to be somewhat "self lubricating" in that the surface of the plastic is quite slippery.



Alan - Good recommendation. I'll dot the axle ends with a bit of oil and retry the experiment. My other idea is to clean the wheels with my Dremel tool and a wire wheel brush. After 60 plus years there tends to be a build up of dirt that also may cause drag. Rolling efficiency can be improved dramatically when the wheels are cleaned.
Offline jvuye  
#6 Posted : 03 December 2018 22:42:15(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,815
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
I see catenary masts for bridges...they seem to be very rare and always expensive!


Indeed...as long as you can find them in one peace!Wink
My experience is that 6 out of 10 are riddled with zinkpest....
So if you find them handle with care!
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline jvuye  
#7 Posted : 03 December 2018 22:47:14(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,815
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: kamstutz Go to Quoted Post
I was looking through my 1951 Maerklin catalog and I noticed an interesting drawing on page 41 (also 1950 catalog on page 37) - that of a CCS800 crocodile pulling a long line of freight cars. Here is a cut out clipping from that catalog. (Click on the image to see a larger version)

......

Based on the drawing and the product line-up in 1951 I believe that I have come up with the model numbers for the consist of this freight train. Here is my best guess. Should you have better guesses on some of these please feel free to comment.

  1. CCS800 - (SBB crocodile)
  2. 310 - (green luggage van)
  3. 312b - (Covered/Closed Goods van with flat roof)
  4. 325 "Gambrinus" - (Beer van "Gambrinus" with brakesman's cabin, white)
  5. 320/312b? - (Closed goods wagon)
  6. 322 - (Covered wagon)
  7. 311sb (brown open goods wagon with white stones)
  8. 361G - (Lumber truck (2 x 2 axle platforms))
  9. 316b - (Closed freight wagon)
  10. 314E - ("Esso" tank wagon with rectangle logos)
  11. 324 "Kuhlwagen" - (white refridgerated van)
  12. 322 - (covered wagon - as in wagon #5?)
  13. 311Hb - (open goods wagon with plastic logs insert)
  14. 332 - (4 axle box car with sliding doors)
  15. 311Kg - (green open goods wagon with coal load)
  16. 334E - (4 axle "Esso" tank wagon)
  17. 311kg? - (green open goods wagon with coal load)


A couple of these are just guesses since it's a bit difficult to make out some of the cars, but I think I'm pretty close. Checking my collection I came up with almost all of these (I didn't have a duplicate #322 so I used a #393 instead). I put the train together and gave it a run around my layout. Here's a short video of the entire train.

.........

Conclusion: As powerful as the CCS800 is it does (did) have trouble pulling this 16 car train - especially going up and down grades. The die cast cars are very heavy and because of the "stubby" axles their rolling efficiency is not very good (in comparison with today's "cone" type axles). When going uphill I'll bet that the CCS800 would have struggled since at that time (1950/1951) the croc still didn't have traction tires, which, according to Koll's, only appeared in 1957. My CCS800 has traction tires and still had difficulty. When going downhill I noticed that the weight of the cars pushing against each other caused numerous derailments. So while lovely to look at in the catalog I rather doubt that this train was very viable.

Still a fun experiment and a good learning experience by hunting down these models. Anyone else modelled something from a catalog?

Kurt



Cool.
I have done the same thing when I finally got all the bridges ...with solid center rail
Only missing enough pillars...RollEyes
I think your collection is missing a 322 with red taillights....Wink
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline kamstutz  
#8 Posted : 04 December 2018 03:41:35(UTC)
kamstutz

United States   
Joined: 27/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 165
Location: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

Cool.
I have done the same thing when I finally got all the bridges ...with solid center rail
Only missing enough pillars...RollEyes
I think your collection is missing a 322 with red taillights....Wink


Jacques my friend. I'm hoping that you meant that I'm missing a 320S with red taillights because unless you created a "one-off" I've never seen or heard of a 322 with taillights. Wink
BTW - If anyone comments about my bridge pillars looking like etched blue foam that hasn't been painted... FYI - I'm modelling a type of blue concrete brick from the 1950's that looks amazingly like blue foam... just a coincidence. Flapper

Edited by user 04 December 2018 18:27:01(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline jvuye  
#9 Posted : 04 December 2018 10:09:25(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,815
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: kamstutz Go to Quoted Post
....

Jacques my friend. I'm hoping that you meant that I'm missing a 320S with red taillights because unless you created a "one-off" I've never seen or heard of a 322 with taillights. Wink
BTW - If anyone comments about my bridge pillars looking like etched blue foam that hasn't been painted... FYI - I'm modelling a type of blue concrete brick from the 1950's that looks amazingly like blue foam... just a coincidence. Flapper


Hi Kurt
Indeed, I was referring to a 320S . My mistake (and aging brains...)
Cheers

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#10 Posted : 04 December 2018 10:25:02(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,105
Location: New Zealand
Hey Guys, please avoid quoting entire posts in a thread multiple times, please edit the quote to include only the bit being referred to (which Jacques has done in his last post ThumpUp). This is part of the general forum guidelines (and normal netiquette)

Other than that, great topic!
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Offline kamstutz  
#11 Posted : 04 December 2018 18:20:49(UTC)
kamstutz

United States   
Joined: 27/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 165
Location: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Hey Guys, please avoid quoting entire posts in a thread multiple times, please edit the quote to include only the bit being referred to (which Jacques has done in his last post ThumpUp). This is part of the general forum guidelines (and normal netiquette)

Other than that, great topic!


Good catch and sorry for having overlooked the quoting/re-quoting. My bad. I've edited the "flagrant" post and trimmed it down to relevant size.

Kurt

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Offline kamstutz  
#12 Posted : 04 December 2018 21:32:57(UTC)
kamstutz

United States   
Joined: 27/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 165
Location: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post

Hi Kurt
Indeed, I was referring to a 320S . My mistake (and aging brains...)
Cheers

Too bad - I was hoping to learn that you "kitbashed" an entirely new lighted version of the #322. Wink

Offline White Buffalo  
#13 Posted : 05 December 2018 14:40:45(UTC)
White Buffalo

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 390
Location: South Dakota
Great video Kurt, nice collection of Güterwagen for that Crok.......Love
Online cookee_nz  
#14 Posted : 17 December 2019 08:17:34(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Recently there was a bit of chat on the FB group about the layout featured in the center of the 1951 catalogue.

I don't recall it being discussed here but rather than yet another thread, on yet another forum, I think it fits nicely into this existing topic.

51-p28+29-full.jpg

The layout (ref 800/242) appears to have been built for an exhibition as can be seen in a short 5 seconds in this clip - fast-forward to 4:43 - awesome to see it running, must have been quite something.


https://www.filmothek.bu...pZEuOqb12qJY-LntYkuh8_Uc (it takes a few seconds to buffer)


And of course with acknowledgement to StummiForum - https://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=174784
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline PJMärklin  
#15 Posted : 17 December 2019 11:18:07(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,486
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Recently there was a bit of chat on the FB group about the layout featured in the center of the 1951 catalogue.
I don't recall it being discussed here but rather than yet another thread, on yet another forum, I think it fits nicely into this existing topic.
The layout (ref 800/242) appears to have been built for an exhibition as can be seen in a short 5 seconds in this clip - fast-forward to 4:43 - awesome to see it running, must have been quite something.



Hi Cookee!

Thanks for this most interesting film clip of the 1951 layout - a gemThumpUp - as you say, must have been quite something.
Were not the trains going incredibly fastOhMyGod .
(and to pass no comment on the "political correctness" of the following segment in the film)Laugh

Regards,

PJ
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Offline hxmiesa  
#16 Posted : 17 December 2019 14:02:35(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,865
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post

Thanks for this most interesting film clip of the 1951 layout - a gemThumpUp - as you say, must have been quite something.
Were not the trains going incredibly fastOhMyGod .

Interessting.
Yes, VERY FAST! -probably also the only way to get a croc to pull that consist, and to avoid the derailments running down-hill; Running close to light-speed!

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Online kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 17 December 2019 14:46:11(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,961
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post

Thanks for this most interesting film clip of the 1951 layout - a gemThumpUp - as you say, must have been quite something.
Were not the trains going incredibly fastOhMyGod .

Interessting.
Yes, VERY FAST! -probably also the only way to get a croc to pull that consist, and to avoid the derailments running down-hill; Running close to light-speed!



I suspect some of the speed was 18 or 24 frames per second film sped up to 25 frames per second for TV broadcast, as those trains were really rocketing around.

Interesting to see the other Toy Fair items as well, there would be an uproar these days with the item that immediately followed the Marklin layout.

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#18 Posted : 17 December 2019 15:06:14(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,105
Location: New Zealand
It would be rude not to pinch the trackplan and post it here.

I have seen this before, but have only just associated that with the 1951 catalog layout.

Marklinanlage aus dem 1951er Katalog.JPG
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Offline jvuye  
#19 Posted : 17 December 2019 15:15:55(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,815
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
Recently there was a bit of chat on the FB group about the layout featured in the center of the 1951 catalogue.

I don't recall it being discussed here but rather than yet another thread, on yet another forum, I think it fits nicely into this existing topic.

51-p28+29-full.jpg

The layout (ref 800/242) appears to have been built for an exhibition as can be seen in a short 5 seconds in this clip - fast-forward to 4:43 - awesome to see it running, must have been quite something.


....

And of course with acknowledgement to StummiForum - https://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?t=174784



Ah Yes!
The 1951 catalog Centerfold! Wink
**That's the one** that haunted many of my nights in those days!RollEyes RollEyes
I got my first Märklin set for Xmas 1951, and the catalog was part of the delivery.

"When I grow up I'll have a layout like that"

Since I'm not entirely grown up yet, there must still be hope...

Over (close to...) 70 years later, I even think I may have collected enough solid center rail 3600/3700 series M-track to build it.

See what you have done now Cookee? Woot Wink

Cheers

Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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