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Offline waterslip  
#1 Posted : 19 November 2018 04:05:17(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
Hello Community,
I have an old analog train with an M-Track system and I need a transformer, can I use the power transformer 6646 ?
I live in Canada so the power here is 120v.
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 19 November 2018 07:44:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Welcome to the forum.

The 6646 is an "analogue" transformer with a speed knob and it was made to operate analogue locos.
The "digital" transformers are also analogue, but they have a constant output voltage of 16 V.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline hxmiesa  
#3 Posted : 19 November 2018 16:27:22(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: waterslip Go to Quoted Post
Hello Community,
I have an old analog train with an M-Track system and I need a transformer, can I use the power transformer 6646 ?
I live in Canada so the power here is 120v.

Yes. It is exactly for that.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline mike c  
#4 Posted : 19 November 2018 18:25:13(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Hello Waterslip,

as others have stated, you can safely use a 6646 to power any analog Maerklin layout, be it using M, K or C Track. The only thing that you will have to do is to remove the brown and red plugs from the end of the cables on your feeder track and insert the wires into the corresponding terminal clips at the rear of the transformer.

Unfortunately, there are no dealers in Montreal. There are at least two in Toronto, one in Alberta and one in BC. You can also get a transformer by mail order from Europe or the USA.
If they won't ship across the border or you want to avoid the cost of international shipping, send me a PM and I can offer some suggestions that may save you a little.

Regards

Mike C
Offline waterslip  
#5 Posted : 19 November 2018 23:36:43(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
Thanks guys,
So why is it that Marklin does NOT recommend using the Marklin 6646 on M-Track ?

And if I was to use an analog transformer such Marklin 6627 on an M-Track, how can I control multiple trains ? what would I need to operate multiple trains on the tracks ?

Finally, if I use an M-Track layout with a 6627 can I run a digital lokomotive on the track ?
Offline mbarreto  
#6 Posted : 19 November 2018 23:53:41(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
For controlling multiples trains with transformers, you need to electrically isolate tracks sections (just need to isolate the center studs - red). These sections maybe mechanically connected and looking as a continuos track. Then you will connect each transformer to a track section, so each transformer will control a specific track section. All the trains in the same track section will be controlled by the transformer connected to that track section.

This way you don't have individual control of each train as you have in digital operation. Of course if you have only one locomotive in each electrically isolated track section, then you are controlling just that train/locomotive with the transformer connected to that track section.
The red and brown wires of all the transformers need to be in phase, so you need to check how to connect each transformer to the mains.

If you have M track a small piece of paper between the connectors of the center studs will provide electrical isolation.

I am sure there are lots of information about this if you google it. For example, here is a link to a thread on diong it with K track:
https://www.marklin-user...-power-segments-of-track

Regards
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 20 November 2018 04:12:40(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: waterslip Go to Quoted Post
Thanks guys,
So why is it that Marklin does NOT recommend using the Marklin 6646 on M-Track ?


Where does it say that they do not recommend using the 6646 on M-Track?

As I stated, you have to remove the plugs on the feeder track so that the wires can be inserted into the terminals, but other than that, there should be no issues.
I replaced my last blue transformer with a 6646 and have had no problems.

The last M Track feeder track that had I bought already came with soldered wire ends and a plastic baggie containing the red and brown plugs for use with older transformers.

Regards

Mike C
Offline waterslip  
#8 Posted : 20 November 2018 18:57:58(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
So what’s the advantage for using the Marklin digital 6646 over the Marklin analog 6627? And can I still seperately control multiple trains on the tracks in both cases?
And what can I add Delta or Digital locomotives in both cases?
Offline mbarreto  
#9 Posted : 20 November 2018 19:34:57(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
Originally Posted by: waterslip Go to Quoted Post
So what’s the advantage for using the Marklin digital 6646 over the Marklin analog 6627? And can I still seperately control multiple trains on the tracks in both cases?
And what can I add Delta or Digital locomotives in both cases?


Basically you can do the same with 6646 and 6627. Both allow exactly the same type of multi-train control (as explained earlier, better call it multi track section control). Others can explain you better than me, the differences.
I don't understand why you insist in calling 6646 digital.
Delta and Digital locomotives can be operated in analogue layouts but older digital and delta locomotives don't have decoders with automatic analogue signal detection and in those you need to set the switches of the decoder for analogue operation.


Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline Minok  
#10 Posted : 20 November 2018 23:36:45(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Both of those transformers are analog transformers - the both provide a knob variable AC voltage output signal and a constant voltage lighting AC signal. The 6646 is just the newer (current) version while the 6627 is the old blue out of production variant.

If you want to run multiple trains at the same time in an analog system, you have to reply on the old analogue techniques for doing so, you divide up the layout into electrically separate loops and sections, where a single transformer powers each loop/section. So as you drive a train from one section to another, you must change which transformer controls it. Only one train per loop long term, because every train on the same transformer will run at the command of the one controller - you cannot control only 1 of them so eventually one will catch up to the other.

If you want to run 2 or more trains without worrying about different sections and having to use multiple controllers, then you go digital. There a constant voltage signal is given to the tracks on the whole layout and encoded in there is a digital data stream with addresses and commands so the command can be given to a specific locomotive, and only that locomotive responds to the command.

To convert older analog locos to digital, the motor needs upgrading and a decoder needs fitting. Modern locos likely have decoders in them already (I don't imagine Märklin sells locos anymore that have no decoders in them) and you really just need the digital controller and power supply (you cannot use the transformers with the digital controllers). The tracks, you don't have to change analog-v-digital, generally speaking.

Disclaimer - I've never run an analog setup, I only saw one run in my childhood and read about them occasionally.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline mike c  
#11 Posted : 21 November 2018 03:47:16(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
The warnings regarding continued use of older transformers had to do with the shift of some power companies to new standards. In Europe, the norm was 220 and in North America it was 120V. The true voltage was often as high as 230 in Europe and between 110 and 120 in America. This became problematic with the new digital decoders and electronic reverse units because in some cases, the use of the inversion pulse (reverse pulse) could cause damage to the electronics of the locomotives.
The new transformers (6646/6647) were designed so that the voltage spike would not damage the electronics of newer models.
There is no reason that they cannot be used with M Track or Analog layouts. They are in fact safer.
They are also equipped with the terminal connections for use with the new standard wiring for Maerklin C Track.
The brown and yellow terminals can be used to power a 6021 controller.

Analog layouts can not be powered by the current power packs for use with the Mobile Station controllers.

Regards

Mike C
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mike c
Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 21 November 2018 08:09:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The new transformers (6646/6647) were designed so that the voltage spike would not damage the electronics of newer models.
The 6646/6647 came many years before the voltage-sensitive decoders came.
The companies under-estimated how many "blue" transformers were still in use when they reduced the voltage specifications for their decoders.

The norms in Europe were 220 V and 240 V, but they were harmonised to 230 V. All three voltages allow +/-10 % variation. A transformer with a rating of 220 V should be able to handle voltages between 198 V and 242 V. No technical issue with 230 V coming out of the wall outlets today (as long as the voltage stays with -10%/+6%).

All this was known to the engineers when they designed new and cheaper decoders that get fried from high reversing voltages.
Why didn't Märklin use "blue" transformers in their test room before shipping the new loco decoders?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Thewolf  
#13 Posted : 21 November 2018 12:44:53(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 2,035
Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


The norms in Europe were 220 V and 240 V, but they were harmonised to 230 V. All three voltages allow +/-10 % variation. A transformer with a rating of 220 V should be able to handle voltages between 198 V and 242 V. No technical issue with 230 V coming out of the wall outlets today (as long as the voltage stays with -10%/+6%).



Hi HOCool

220V/240V, 230 V harmoised ?? I would like to know which European country applies this, I have always known 220 V, 220 V three-phase and 380 V three-phase in domestic electricity as long as I lived in my native country, but it goes back more than 20 years.

I would be surprised if the Belgians have made changes, are rather conservative in this area. Don't push them too hard.

But with them, you have to expect everything.

Regards

Thewolf
Project The Richelieu Valley Railway-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 21 November 2018 13:04:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Thewolf Go to Quoted Post
220V/240V, 230 V harmoised ?? I would like to know which European country applies this, I have always known 220 V, 220 V three-phase and 380 V three-phase in domestic electricity as long as I lived in my native country, but it goes back more than 20 years.
20 years are a long time.
230 V applies to Belgium, Germany, UK - to name just a few.

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org...ctricity#Standardisation
https://en.wikipedia.org...s_electricity_by_country
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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