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dickinsonj		#1 Posted : 09 October 2018 01:05:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia		The Märklin 36433 Ludmilla is an interesting loco but I assume that it has the same piezo smoke unit as the previous model (36431). I know that a lot of people had trouble with that feature in those, although I could never determine if it was all of them or only some. It is clearly a cool innovation, but only if it actually works. I did not buy the yellow one and when the problems surfaced I was glad. But now I am intrigued by the red one - makes no sense, right?
		Regards, Jim I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains! So many trains and so little time.
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JohnjeanB		#2 Posted : 09 October 2018 14:13:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,555 Location: Paris, France		Hi Jim This is the first time I heard about problems when using distilled water (I don't say there are none). Rather some complains about not very prototypical aspect Here is a subject on Stummi on this and a video on post 186 (page 8) https://www.stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=155688&p=1836848&hilit=36431#p1836848 Cheers Jean
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kiwiAlan		#3 Posted : 09 October 2018 17:38:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,463 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi Jim This is the first time I heard about problems when using distilled water (I don't say there are none). Rather some complains about not very prototypical aspect Here is a subject on Stummi on this and a video on post 186 (page 8) https://www.stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=155688&p=1836848&hilit=36431#p1836848 Cheers Jean The complaints seem to relate to air locks in the water piping from the tank to the piezo unit. It has been reported on here in the past. One of the things I am wondering about with the new diesel is the three stage control of the piezo unit.
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Minok		#4 Posted : 09 October 2018 23:06:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,318 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		There were some folks experiencing issues - the problems that can occur, similar to the recent post here by someone with a Roco loco that has a smoke fluid tank - is that in the locos where there is an internal tank that then allows for travel of the liquid (oil or in this case distilled water) into the generator (heated or vaporizer) is that the fluid flow channel can become stuck with air bubbles being present in them, or other debris. When that happens the simple capillary and/or gravity flow may not happen and the tank's contents don't make it to the generator. Blowing through the filler tube to blow out air bubbles was the recommended solution for the water/vaporizer system. This new loco is probably the exact same one (since one of the yellow version windows wasn't right for the actual yellow service locomotive), just in the red paint scheme with different numbering - so its likely the exact same internals. This is my review video of the yellow one, and the piezzo vaporizer worked well enough for me.
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dickinsonj		#5 Posted : 10 October 2018 00:59:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia		Originally Posted by: Minok This new loco is probably the exact same one (since one of the yellow version windows wasn't right for the actual yellow service locomotive), just in the red paint scheme with different numbering - so its likely the exact same internals. I agree that the two locos almost surely differ in only body color and imprinting. Originally Posted by: Minok This is my review video of the yellow one, and the piezo vaporizer worked well enough for me. Thanks Minok - that video review is very helpful! I have not seen many good videos of that unit in operation and the effect is actually better than I had anticipated. I have an ESU V200 with smoke and it works quite well, but I don't use it very often. Now if the piezo unit was just a bit more consistent in output it might be perfect. I equip all of my steam locos with smoke units (when possible) but seldom run them because of the smell. I hope to have a dedicated train space in my next house, with a good exhaust system so that I can safely use all of my steamers to their fullest.
		Regards, Jim I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains! So many trains and so little time.
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dickinsonj		#6 Posted : 10 October 2018 01:03:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia		Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi Jim This is the first time I heard about problems when using distilled water (I don't say there are none). Rather some complains about not very prototypical aspect Here is a subject on Stummi on this and a video on post 186 (page 8) Jean Thanks for that information and the links Jean. I like the idea of cutting edge tech but only when it produces the desired effect. The output is too inconsistent to be totally convincing and I can see why people are not happy with that aspect of this loco.
		Regards, Jim I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains! So many trains and so little time.
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Minok		#7 Posted : 10 October 2018 01:13:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,318 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		Originally Posted by: dickinsonj I equip all of my steam locos with smoke units (when possible) but seldom run them because of the smell. I hope to have a dedicated train space in my next house, with a good exhaust system so that I can safely use all of my steamers to their fullest. Well, I have heard from folks that use them for their intended purposes, that the flavored e-cigarette liquids also work quite well in the oil based smoke generators in model trains, and that switching to something like that would get you lots of smoke and the smell of cheese cake as well. Not tried it myself yet. Of course test with the nicotine-free varieties.
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Minok		#8 Posted : 10 October 2018 01:22:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,318 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Originally Posted by: Minok This is my review video of the yellow one, and the piezo vaporizer worked well enough for me. Thanks Minok - that video review is very helpful! I have not seen many good videos of that unit in operation and the effect is actually better than I had anticipated. One important note to point out - the lighting and background plays a significant role in the visibility of the water vapor. Good lighting from one side onto a darker background makes it more visible. Had I filmed that with just general ambient daylight against the normal room background you would not have seen the vapor as well.
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dickinsonj		#9 Posted : 11 October 2018 00:56:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia		Originally Posted by: Minok Well, I have heard from folks that use them for their intended purposes, that the flavored e-cigarette liquids also work quite well in the oil based smoke generators in model trains, and that switching to something like that would get you lots of smoke and the smell of cheese cake as well. Not tried it myself yet. Of course test with the nicotine-free varieties. Interesting suggestion. I know that e-cigarettes product a lot of vapor, so it makes sense that it would work in a smoke unit as well, while also producing a pleasant smell. I have friends in Washington state who buy THC liquids for e-cigarettes, which would give a whole new meaning to highballing on your MRR.
		Regards, Jim I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains! So many trains and so little time.
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seanshintaro		#10 Posted : 11 October 2018 21:58:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/04/2018(UTC) Posts: 51 Location: Hong Kong Island		hello all, I bought the yellow one, and had the Piezo unit issue on the same day and it took me more than 4months to get it back. I just found that when I didn't dry up good enough??, I got damp smell from piezo unit a while when I played in a couple of days later. This can be only while in summer time, or depends on water?? but I am not sure tho.. Anyways, I believe I really must use up the water, or it'll create future issues (because using water!) Sean
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Minok		#11 Posted : 11 October 2018 22:14:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,318 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		Sean, I'd agree that using up the water is a good practice. According to the manual, there is no problem running it without any water in it, so if you put in distilled water (not tap!) then just be sure to run it till there is no more vapor coming out.
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seanshintaro		#12 Posted : 11 October 2018 23:11:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/04/2018(UTC) Posts: 51 Location: Hong Kong Island		hi Minok, When I on the piezo back again then cold steam comes out a few seconds whenever I on the switch and it seems never ending for me using up totally... And right, no tap water, or those foreign materials may cause water pipe clogging and damage the sensor I heard. Sean
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Minok		#13 Posted : 11 October 2018 23:19:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,318 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		True, if its clogged with an air bubble, then of course there is an issue, but if you have it running, just run the loco around (so that is uses the non-idle mode which I assume is more vapor (not steam)). Once its in a clogged state you could sit there turning the loco on and off to get puffs but might be better served shaking most of the water out of the tank carefully first, and letting the loco then sit with the fill plug removed to let natural evaporation over some days dry it all out, as well as blowing through the system with your mouth.
		Toys of tin and wood rule! --- My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4 My YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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seanshintaro		#14 Posted : 11 October 2018 23:49:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/04/2018(UTC) Posts: 51 Location: Hong Kong Island		agree, the way I tried is similar to what you've advised here, but for me, indeed, it's troublesome compared to "smoke fluid" diesel loco like ESU ones. However, this piezo cold steam is a new innovation among model train makers, and Marklin is releasing 2nd model in red & weathered BR232, hoping that this piezo models will get expanded to different loco models, and become easy to handle & stress free in near future
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dickinsonj		#15 Posted : 12 October 2018 01:13:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia		Originally Posted by: seanshintaro Marklin is releasing 2nd model in red & weathered BR232, hoping that this piezo models will get expanded to different loco models, and become easy to handle & stress free in near future I am still interested but I still have serious doubts that this tech is really ready for mass production. Maybe I will wait this out until PV 2.0 or 3.0 comes out, hopefully without all of the hassles that this first gen version seems to have.
		Regards, Jim I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains! So many trains and so little time.
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seanshintaro		#16 Posted : 13 October 2018 20:51:28(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/04/2018(UTC) Posts: 51 Location: Hong Kong Island		hello your serious doubts maybe right. As someone in this forum mentioned before about Piezo unit, I still do not feel comfortable putting water inside locomotive. I opened the upper case before, and as far as I could see n guess, I believe that all of mechanical thingies, electric parts, motor, and decoder etc were highly likely NOT water proof.... sean
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jlopez		#17 Posted : 05 November 2019 06:32:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 143 Location: San Francisco		Ok I bought this loco, after seeing it in action. Started up out the recommended distilled water in it. A few puffs and that was it. Some people say there are three modes? How do you switch between them? Very disappointed in the system. The loco looks great though.
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Minok		#18 Posted : 05 November 2019 07:17:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,318 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		If it’s like the yellow version you don’t control the levels but get different levels based on the throttle position to actual speed. Did they change the control to allow you setting level by function? That would be difficult to control. I’d prefer the automatic setting.
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jlopez		#19 Posted : 05 November 2019 07:49:06(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 143 Location: San Francisco		Then it’s like the yellow version. I put in the distilled water and got a puff at start and nothing else after that :( I just reading some of the decriptions it seemed maybe there were three settings.
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kiwiAlan		#20 Posted : 05 November 2019 15:32:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,463 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: jlopez Then it’s like the yellow version. I put in the distilled water and got a puff at start and nothing else after that :( I just reading some of the decriptions it seemed maybe there were three settings. They can get an air lock inside the piping. I can't remember what the fix was to clear it though.
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jlopez		#21 Posted : 05 November 2019 18:07:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 143 Location: San Francisco		I tried blowing out the water vapor through the insertion hole. Still nothing. I knew I was taking a chance buying this engine. It hasn’t worked properly since I got it out of the box water vapor wise. Also just drained the water out and no “bird chirping noise” so back in the box it goes.
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Minok		#22 Posted : 05 November 2019 19:50:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,318 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		Did you try, once you drained the locomotive, keeping the plug out, and letting the entire locomotive dry out for a day or so; then trying again? I think its key that the loco be dry before one puts it in a box.
		Toys of tin and wood rule! --- My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4 My YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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jlopez		#23 Posted : 06 November 2019 07:12:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 143 Location: San Francisco		Originally Posted by: Minok Did you try, once you drained the locomotive, keeping the plug out, and letting the entire locomotive dry out for a day or so; then trying again? I think its key that the loco be dry before one puts it in a box. I’ll try that today. Also just got an email stating I should use battery distilled water and not the distilled water you can buy at a normal store
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Minok		#24 Posted : 06 November 2019 16:33:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,318 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		Im not sure there is a substantial difference there. Distilled water is supposed to be distilled water. If one brand is different than the other it’s down to the maker or storage but if it’s distilled it doesn’t have minerals which will cause buildup and foul the vaporizer.
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kiwiAlan		#25 Posted : 06 November 2019 16:56:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,463 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot		Originally Posted by: Minok Im not sure there is a substantial difference there. Distilled water is supposed to be distilled water. If one brand is different than the other it’s down to the maker or storage but if it’s distilled it doesn’t have minerals which will cause buildup and foul the vaporizer. +1. I don't know how they would make the distinction.
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jlopez		#26 Posted : 07 November 2019 03:35:33(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 143 Location: San Francisco		Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: Minok Im not sure there is a substantial difference there. Distilled water is supposed to be distilled water. If one brand is different than the other it’s down to the maker or storage but if it’s distilled it doesn’t have minerals which will cause buildup and foul the vaporizer. +1. I don't know how they would make the distinction. I agree, but it’s worth a shot before shipping it off to marklin, since they are the only ones that can fix it.
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river6109		#27 Posted : 07 November 2019 04:19:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,874 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Minok, are there other flavours, I don't like cheese John
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dickinsonj		#28 Posted : 08 November 2019 01:45:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia		I call total BS. Märklin has to know that a lot of these Piezo vaporizers either do not work at all or imperfectly. If not they should check the forums where there are numerous complaints. This was interesting and innovative tech which simply did not work as well as expected. Saying that it required a specific brand of distilled water though is very, very lame -- it just makes them look desperate to avoid liability. I do not expect to see many more models using this tech for a while, although I thought it was very cool myself. When I was part of a conversation about getting the light just right so that you could see that it actually was making vapor I more or less lost interest. Until I build a forever train room I won't have the ventilation to use conventional smoke, so my smoke units stay dormant for a while. But there is no doubt at all about when they are working and no need to be getting the light just right to see the effect. Sometimes old timer tech just can't be beat. Right guys?
		Regards, Jim I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains! So many trains and so little time.
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Minok		#29 Posted : 08 November 2019 02:37:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,318 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		I don’t think Märklin suggested the wrong type of distilled water was being used. Who suggested that, the dealer? Like lots of models it is a tech they didn’t really work as well as the product development team pitched. The technology is very old as such vaporizers were in consumer gadgets sind the early 2003 time or earlier. The piezo works but the capillary feature isn’t a the weakness. That didn’t mean you have a right to get compensation for a feature not woorking. Recall the train with the LCD panel to emulate the door open and people leaving? Lots of cases. Some products just don’t work well. That said for me I just purchased the yellow one because it was for the yellow support fleet. The vaporized is irrelevant to me If it works or not but I’d certainly like to be able to fire it up for visitors.
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dickinsonj		#30 Posted : 08 November 2019 03:47:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia		Originally Posted by: Minok That said for me I just purchased the yellow one because it was for the yellow support fleet. The vaporized is irrelevant to me If it works or not but I’d certainly like to be able to fire it up for visitors. That was exactly the position I was in as well. I was envisioning a yellow train with the goliath crane and that cool support car set and this loco seemed like the perfect motive power answer. My deal on the goliath fell through and I moved on, or otherwise I would have a yellow one too. I would feel the same way I think - you have to try out new concepts and sometimes the tech doesn't live up to expectations. You take that chance every time you buy cutting edge stuff. If no one ever takes a risk we never move forward.
		Regards, Jim I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains! So many trains and so little time.
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jlopez		#31 Posted : 08 November 2019 07:52:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 143 Location: San Francisco		Originally Posted by: Minok I don’t think Märklin suggested the wrong type of distilled water was being used. Who suggested that, the dealer? Like lots of models it is a tech they didn’t really work as well as the product development team pitched. The technology is very old as such vaporizers were in consumer gadgets sind the early 2003 time or earlier. The piezo works but the capillary feature isn’t a the weakness. That didn’t mean you have a right to get compensation for a feature not woorking. Recall the train with the LCD panel to emulate the door open and people leaving? Lots of cases. Some products just don’t work well. That said for me I just purchased the yellow one because it was for the yellow support fleet. The vaporized is irrelevant to me If it works or not but I’d certainly like to be able to fire it up for visitors. The dealer told me about the water. I have been on the road so haven’t tested it yet. It has been “drying out for a few days now🤞🏽🤞🏽.
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jlopez		#32 Posted : 08 November 2019 07:54:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 143 Location: San Francisco		Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Originally Posted by: Minok That said for me I just purchased the yellow one because it was for the yellow support fleet. The vaporized is irrelevant to me If it works or not but I’d certainly like to be able to fire it up for visitors. That was exactly the position I was in as well. I was envisioning a yellow train with the goliath crane and that cool support car set and this loco seemed like the perfect motive power answer. My deal on the goliath fell through and I moved on, or otherwise I would have a yellow one too. I would feel the same way I think - you have to try out new concepts and sometimes the tech doesn't live up to expectations. You take that chance every time you buy cutting edge stuff. If no one ever takes a risk we never move forward. I kind of feel the same. I took a risk, sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn’t. The engine itself looks and sounds gorgeous though.
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jlopez		#33 Posted : 22 November 2019 01:14:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 143 Location: San Francisco		Well good news! I was frustrated with the engine. So I left it alone out to dry for about two weeks. Placed it back on the tracks today. Added only a little distilled water. Works great! Another lesson learned. Engine looks and runs great and the residual water is non existent. Can’t feel it on the tracks or overhead. Thanks for all the answers and help! Jaime
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