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Offline dickinsonj  
#1 Posted : 09 October 2018 01:05:46(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
The Märklin 36433 Ludmilla is an interesting loco but I assume that it has the same piezo smoke unit as the previous model (36431). I know that a lot of people had trouble with that feature in those, although I could never determine if it was all of them or only some. It is clearly a cool innovation, but only if it actually works. Confused

I did not buy the yellow one and when the problems surfaced I was glad. But now I am intrigued by the red one - makes no sense, right?
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 09 October 2018 14:13:02(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 582
Location: Paris, France
Hi Jim

This is the first time I heard about problems when using distilled water (I don't say there are none). Rather some complains about not very prototypical aspect
Here is a subject on Stummi on this and a video on post 186 (page 8) https://www.stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=155688&p=1836848&hilit=36431#p1836848
Cheers

Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 09 October 2018 17:38:02(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,610
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jim

This is the first time I heard about problems when using distilled water (I don't say there are none). Rather some complains about not very prototypical aspect
Here is a subject on Stummi on this and a video on post 186 (page 8) https://www.stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=155688&p=1836848&hilit=36431#p1836848
Cheers

Jean


The complaints seem to relate to air locks in the water piping from the tank to the piezo unit. It has been reported on here in the past.

One of the things I am wondering about with the new diesel is the three stage control of the piezo unit.

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Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 09 October 2018 23:06:48(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,077
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
There were some folks experiencing issues - the problems that can occur, similar to the recent post here by someone with a Roco loco that has a smoke fluid tank - is that in the locos where there is an internal tank that then allows for travel of the liquid (oil or in this case distilled water) into the generator (heated or vaporizer) is that the fluid flow channel can become stuck with air bubbles being present in them, or other debris. When that happens the simple capillary and/or gravity flow may not happen and the tank's contents don't make it to the generator. Blowing through the filler tube to blow out air bubbles was the recommended solution for the water/vaporizer system. This new loco is probably the exact same one (since one of the yellow version windows wasn't right for the actual yellow service locomotive), just in the red paint scheme with different numbering - so its likely the exact same internals.

This is my review video of the yellow one, and the piezzo vaporizer worked well enough for me.

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline dickinsonj  
#5 Posted : 10 October 2018 00:59:30(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
This new loco is probably the exact same one (since one of the yellow version windows wasn't right for the actual yellow service locomotive), just in the red paint scheme with different numbering - so its likely the exact same internals.

I agree that the two locos almost surely differ in only body color and imprinting.

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

This is my review video of the yellow one, and the piezo vaporizer worked well enough for me.


Thanks Minok - that video review is very helpful! I have not seen many good videos of that unit in operation and the effect is actually better than I had anticipated. Cool

I have an ESU V200 with smoke and it works quite well, but I don't use it very often. Now if the piezo unit was just a bit more consistent in output it might be perfect. I equip all of my steam locos with smoke units (when possible) but seldom run them because of the smell. I hope to have a dedicated train space in my next house, with a good exhaust system so that I can safely use all of my steamers to their fullest. BigGrin

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline dickinsonj  
#6 Posted : 10 October 2018 01:03:11(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jim

This is the first time I heard about problems when using distilled water (I don't say there are none). Rather some complains about not very prototypical aspect
Here is a subject on Stummi on this and a video on post 186 (page 8)

Jean


Thanks for that information and the links Jean.

I like the idea of cutting edge tech but only when it produces the desired effect. The output is too inconsistent to be totally convincing and I can see why people are not happy with that aspect of this loco.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 10 October 2018 01:13:47(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,077
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post


I equip all of my steam locos with smoke units (when possible) but seldom run them because of the smell. I hope to have a dedicated train space in my next house, with a good exhaust system so that I can safely use all of my steamers to their fullest. BigGrin



Well, I have heard from folks that use them for their intended purposes, that the flavored e-cigarette liquids also work quite well in the oil based smoke generators in model trains, and that switching to something like that would get you lots of smoke and the smell of cheese cake as well. Not tried it myself yet. Of course test with the nicotine-free varieties.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline Minok  
#8 Posted : 10 October 2018 01:22:23(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,077
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

This is my review video of the yellow one, and the piezo vaporizer worked well enough for me.


Thanks Minok - that video review is very helpful! I have not seen many good videos of that unit in operation and the effect is actually better than I had anticipated. Cool



One important note to point out - the lighting and background plays a significant role in the visibility of the water vapor. Good lighting from one side onto a darker background makes it more visible. Had I filmed that with just general ambient daylight against the normal room background you would not have seen the vapor as well.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline dickinsonj  
#9 Posted : 11 October 2018 00:56:59(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

Well, I have heard from folks that use them for their intended purposes, that the flavored e-cigarette liquids also work quite well in the oil based smoke generators in model trains, and that switching to something like that would get you lots of smoke and the smell of cheese cake as well. Not tried it myself yet. Of course test with the nicotine-free varieties.


Interesting suggestion. I know that e-cigarettes product a lot of vapor, so it makes sense that it would work in a smoke unit as well, while also producing a pleasant smell.

I have friends in Washington state who buy THC liquids for e-cigarettes, which would give a whole new meaning to highballing on your MRR. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline seanshintaro  
#10 Posted : 11 October 2018 21:58:29(UTC)
seanshintaro

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/04/2018(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Rotterdam
hello all,
I bought the yellow one, and had the Piezo unit issue on the same day and it took me more than 4months to get it back.
I just found that when I didn't dry up good enough??, I got damp smell from piezo unit a while when I played in a couple of days later.
This can be only while in summer time, or depends on water?? but I am not sure tho..
Anyways, I believe I really must use up the water, or it'll create future issues (because using water!)

Sean
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Offline Minok  
#11 Posted : 11 October 2018 22:14:59(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,077
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Sean, I'd agree that using up the water is a good practice. According to the manual, there is no problem running it without any water in it, so if you put in distilled water (not tap!) then just be sure to run it till there is no more vapor coming out.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline seanshintaro  
#12 Posted : 11 October 2018 23:11:49(UTC)
seanshintaro

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/04/2018(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Rotterdam
hi Minok,

When I on the piezo back again then cold steam comes out a few seconds whenever I on the switch and it seems never ending for me using up totally...
And right, no tap water, or those foreign materials may cause water pipe clogging and damage the sensor I heard.

Sean
Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 11 October 2018 23:19:53(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,077
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
True, if its clogged with an air bubble, then of course there is an issue, but if you have it running, just run the loco around (so that is uses the non-idle mode which I assume is more vapor (not steam)). Once its in a clogged state you could sit there turning the loco on and off to get puffs but might be better served shaking most of the water out of the tank carefully first, and letting the loco then sit with the fill plug removed to let natural evaporation over some days dry it all out, as well as blowing through the system with your mouth.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline seanshintaro  
#14 Posted : 11 October 2018 23:49:37(UTC)
seanshintaro

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/04/2018(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Rotterdam
agree, the way I tried is similar to what you've advised here, but for me, indeed, it's troublesome compared to "smoke fluid" diesel loco like ESU ones.
However, this piezo cold steam is a new innovation among model train makers, and Marklin is releasing 2nd model in red & weathered BR232,
hoping that this piezo models will get expanded to different loco models, and become easy to handle & stress free in near future BigGrin

Offline dickinsonj  
#15 Posted : 12 October 2018 01:13:29(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: seanshintaro Go to Quoted Post
Marklin is releasing 2nd model in red & weathered BR232,
hoping that this piezo models will get expanded to different loco models, and become easy to handle & stress free in near future BigGrin



I am still interested but I still have serious doubts that this tech is really ready for mass production. BigGrin

Maybe I will wait this out until PV 2.0 or 3.0 comes out, hopefully without all of the hassles that this first gen version seems to have. Cool
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline seanshintaro  
#16 Posted : 13 October 2018 20:51:28(UTC)
seanshintaro

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/04/2018(UTC)
Posts: 48
Location: Rotterdam
hello
your serious doubts maybe right.
As someone in this forum mentioned before about Piezo unit, I still do not feel comfortable putting water inside locomotive.
I opened the upper case before, and as far as I could see n guess, I believe that all of mechanical thingies, electric parts,
motor, and decoder etc were highly likely NOT water proof....

sean
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Offline jlopez  
#17 Posted : 05 November 2019 06:32:39(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 133
Location: San Francisco
Ok I bought this loco, after seeing it in action. Started up out the recommended distilled water in it. A few puffs and that was it. Some people say there are three modes? How do you switch between them? Very disappointed in the system. The loco looks great though.
Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 05 November 2019 07:17:56(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,077
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
If it’s like the yellow version you don’t control the levels but get different levels based on the throttle position to actual speed.
Did they change the control to allow you setting level by function? That would be difficult to control. I’d prefer the automatic setting.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline jlopez  
#19 Posted : 05 November 2019 07:49:06(UTC)
jlopez

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Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 133
Location: San Francisco
Then it’s like the yellow version. I put in the distilled water and got a puff at start and nothing else after that :( I just reading some of the decriptions it seemed maybe there were three settings.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#20 Posted : 05 November 2019 15:32:10(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,610
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: jlopez Go to Quoted Post
Then it’s like the yellow version. I put in the distilled water and got a puff at start and nothing else after that :( I just reading some of the decriptions it seemed maybe there were three settings.


They can get an air lock inside the piping. I can't remember what the fix was to clear it though.
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Offline jlopez  
#21 Posted : 05 November 2019 18:07:17(UTC)
jlopez

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Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 133
Location: San Francisco
I tried blowing out the water vapor through the insertion hole. Still nothing. I knew I was taking a chance buying this engine. It hasn’t worked properly since I got it out of the box water vapor wise. Also just drained the water out and no “bird chirping noise” so back in the box it goes.
Offline Minok  
#22 Posted : 05 November 2019 19:50:02(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,077
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Did you try, once you drained the locomotive, keeping the plug out, and letting the entire locomotive dry out for a day or so; then trying again?
I think its key that the loco be dry before one puts it in a box.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline jlopez  
#23 Posted : 06 November 2019 07:12:57(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 133
Location: San Francisco
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Did you try, once you drained the locomotive, keeping the plug out, and letting the entire locomotive dry out for a day or so; then trying again?
I think its key that the loco be dry before one puts it in a box.


I’ll try that today. Also just got an email stating I should use battery distilled water and not the distilled water you can buy at a normal store
Offline Minok  
#24 Posted : 06 November 2019 16:33:38(UTC)
Minok

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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,077
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Im not sure there is a substantial difference there. Distilled water is supposed to be distilled water. If one brand is different than the other it’s down to the maker or storage but if it’s distilled it doesn’t have minerals which will cause buildup and foul the vaporizer.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#25 Posted : 06 November 2019 16:56:02(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Posts: 4,610
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Im not sure there is a substantial difference there. Distilled water is supposed to be distilled water. If one brand is different than the other it’s down to the maker or storage but if it’s distilled it doesn’t have minerals which will cause buildup and foul the vaporizer.


+1.

I don't know how they would make the distinction.

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Offline jlopez  
#26 Posted : 07 November 2019 03:35:33(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 133
Location: San Francisco
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Im not sure there is a substantial difference there. Distilled water is supposed to be distilled water. If one brand is different than the other it’s down to the maker or storage but if it’s distilled it doesn’t have minerals which will cause buildup and foul the vaporizer.


+1.

I don't know how they would make the distinction.



I agree, but it’s worth a shot before shipping it off to marklin, since they are the only ones that can fix it.
Offline river6109  
#27 Posted : 07 November 2019 04:19:17(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,626
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Minok, are there other flavours, I don't like cheese

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline dickinsonj  
#28 Posted : 08 November 2019 01:45:05(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
I call total BS. Märklin has to know that a lot of these Piezo vaporizers either do not work at all or imperfectly. If not they should check the forums where there are numerous complaints.

This was interesting and innovative tech which simply did not work as well as expected. Saying that it required a specific brand of distilled water though is very, very lame -- it just makes them look desperate to avoid liability.

I do not expect to see many more models using this tech for a while, although I thought it was very cool myself. When I was part of a conversation about getting the light just right so that you could see that it actually was making vapor I more or less lost interest.

Until I build a forever train room I won't have the ventilation to use conventional smoke, so my smoke units stay dormant for a while. But there is no doubt at all about when they are working and no need to be getting the light just right to see the effect. ThumpUp

Sometimes old timer tech just can't be beat. Right guys? BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline Minok  
#29 Posted : 08 November 2019 02:37:15(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,077
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
I don’t think Märklin suggested the wrong type of distilled water was being used. Who suggested that, the dealer?

Like lots of models it is a tech they didn’t really work as well as the product development team pitched. The technology is very old as such vaporizers were in consumer gadgets sind the early 2003 time or earlier. The piezo works but the capillary feature isn’t a the weakness.

That didn’t mean you have a right to get compensation for a feature not woorking. Recall the train with the LCD panel to emulate the door open and people leaving? Lots of cases. Some products just don’t work well.

That said for me I just purchased the yellow one because it was for the yellow support fleet. The vaporized is irrelevant to me If it works or not but I’d certainly like to be able to fire it up for visitors.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline dickinsonj  
#30 Posted : 08 November 2019 03:47:42(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
That said for me I just purchased the yellow one because it was for the yellow support fleet. The vaporized is irrelevant to me If it works or not but I’d certainly like to be able to fire it up for visitors.


That was exactly the position I was in as well. I was envisioning a yellow train with the goliath crane and that cool support car set and this loco seemed like the perfect motive power answer. My deal on the goliath fell through and I moved on, or otherwise I would have a yellow one too. I would feel the same way I think - you have to try out new concepts and sometimes the tech doesn't live up to expectations.

You take that chance every time you buy cutting edge stuff. If no one ever takes a risk we never move forward. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline jlopez  
#31 Posted : 08 November 2019 07:52:31(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 133
Location: San Francisco
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
I don’t think Märklin suggested the wrong type of distilled water was being used. Who suggested that, the dealer?

Like lots of models it is a tech they didn’t really work as well as the product development team pitched. The technology is very old as such vaporizers were in consumer gadgets sind the early 2003 time or earlier. The piezo works but the capillary feature isn’t a the weakness.

That didn’t mean you have a right to get compensation for a feature not woorking. Recall the train with the LCD panel to emulate the door open and people leaving? Lots of cases. Some products just don’t work well.

That said for me I just purchased the yellow one because it was for the yellow support fleet. The vaporized is irrelevant to me If it works or not but I’d certainly like to be able to fire it up for visitors.


The dealer told me about the water. I have been on the road so haven’t tested it yet. It has been “drying out for a few days now🤞🏽🤞🏽.

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Offline jlopez  
#32 Posted : 08 November 2019 07:54:49(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 133
Location: San Francisco
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
That said for me I just purchased the yellow one because it was for the yellow support fleet. The vaporized is irrelevant to me If it works or not but I’d certainly like to be able to fire it up for visitors.


That was exactly the position I was in as well. I was envisioning a yellow train with the goliath crane and that cool support car set and this loco seemed like the perfect motive power answer. My deal on the goliath fell through and I moved on, or otherwise I would have a yellow one too. I would feel the same way I think - you have to try out new concepts and sometimes the tech doesn't live up to expectations.

You take that chance every time you buy cutting edge stuff. If no one ever takes a risk we never move forward. BigGrin


I kind of feel the same. I took a risk, sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn’t. The engine itself looks and sounds gorgeous though.
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