Hi,

I'm still shocked by the prices of some of these electronics modules, why do they have to cost so much and why have no Chinese companies picked up on this and started selling copies for $2?

Anyway, if something as simple as this works, why pay $25 for something that says "Marklin" or else on it?

http://www.jornebanen.dk...msemodul/Bremsemodul.htm

You're right, however, a Marklin Central Station + S88 modules is also an expensive project.

My problem is that, even though it can all be computer controlled, I like to run trains by hand, and I don't understand the computer control part well enough to know if that is still possible. I also can't afford a Central Station, and have been looking for alternatives. Can a Roco Z21 be used to hook up a computer with RocRail? Can it be used simultaneously with a Mobile Station?

If I use RocRail, can automated trains be made to stop if my manually run train gets in the way?

I really need all these questions answered before I start throwing money at stuff.

Thanks

Morsing,

We all made our mistakes at the beginning, it's part of the fun... Daleschulz is right, the basics are simple, but it's what you make with them that can be complicated... I don't know how much experience you have, but given you use a mobile station, I am assuming that everything will be relatively new for you. Apologies in advance if this is not the case :)

First of all, I found that a good track plan is the key to a successful automation. So before throwing money at anything, I would recommend a serious look at what you want to achieve, may be post your track plan on this forum and ask for recommendations, I can think of quite a few members who would be happy to assist. This information could prove useful in guiding your investment decisions. You may even find that all you need is a second hand CS2 (they are getting cheaper by the day on the second hand market) and a couple of modules.

Looking at your post:
- The Z21 can be used to control Märklin trains and to interface with RocRail. I have no experience with this command station so am not able to advise for or against.
- Computer control and manual control are not mutually exclusive, but a good track plan and block design is required for safe operation.
- Cheaper alternatives: I think the issue at that stage is really one of understanding the basics, so investing in cheap alternatives might not be the best option, as you will have to battle with different levels of quality in terms of support and documentation at a time when you are also trying to understand how the stuff works. You might end with a patchwork of technology that is cumbersome to operate (for example different power requirements or communication protocols) and witness finger pointing between manufacturers when you discover that something isn't working.
- For computer control: all you need in theory is the Marklin "gleisbox", the little black or grey box you plug the mobile station into. It is the part of the system that converts and transmits the command/feedback signals to/from the track. There are modules on the market to interface between this device and a computer running the software of your choice. So in theory, so you don't even need a dedicated command station anymore. There are also plenty of alternatives available to the Märklin brake, signal and feedback modules. Most software can interface with this hardware and allows both manual and automatic control, it can be as easy or elaborate as you want it to be.

My issues with computer controlled trains are:

1) Price
2) Boring
3) I still can't figure out have much you can mix manual and semi-automatic running
4) It appears extremely difficult to have realistic brake length

I love controlling my trains and don't want to lose the ability of my mobile station or similar device. All I really want is that if I send a train running and I've left another train on the track, or if I move a shunter out on a main track, etc, the running train will slow down and stop. I have still not seen evidence that RocRail can do that.

Thanks

Märklin braking modules are analogue devices: they send DC to the decoder.
Decoders that support this mode of braking will then reduce the speed to zero using the braking delay set in the decoder.
The Märklin braking modules do not send feedback to the controller.

ABC braking modules use a similar pattern.

I should add, I dont blame anyone for using braking modules, I blame the manufacturers for providing such poor guidance that people starting to try to invent their own solutions, which are now entrenched.

Thanks, exactly what I needed to know! Although I think a 2m brake length look artificial, I have a minimum of 3m and 5m for my freight trains. So if my 2m station is one block, they actually need to start stopping at the previous block. Is that possible?

But the cost... Seriously. Even a 2nd hand CS2 still seem to go for almost 400 pounds and then you need S88s on top...

Regarding brakes: Easy. In the block before the station, for (some) trains (or train categories) heading towards the station, you set a speed decrease from e.g. 80 km/h (or 50 mph), down to approx. 40 km/h (or 25 mph). In the station block, the speed is further decreased til the train stops at the selected spot. Or if it shouldn’t stop, it continues at 40 km/h through the station block.

Regarding cost: Well, the rangier croc (39567) I want is approx. 500 EUR...

I am confused, what is about the ABV (= Anfahr- und Bremsverzögerung) F4 function key?

In the manual e.g. of my shunting croc 39567 is for acceleration delay (=A) - CV 03 - and braking (=B) delay (=V for German Verzögerung) - CV 04 - defined. Values can be set between 01 and 255.

yes, I looked at the docs again, (German no problem for me), I think I can explain it.

They are trying to make the signal set whether or not the train must stop.
So if the signal is red, the module knows to do its braking effort. If it is green, then all three tracks get digital signal as usual.

To this mess they now add the ABV, the ABV setting controls how fast the train decelerates, once it gets into the DC voltage. Now when I say one could stop over a distance of 20m I would not tell it to go to speed zero, and let the loco slow down itself to stop. I would send speed commands over time to bring it to a halt. This works with any digital decoder.

The setup now demands three isolated sections! The first section allows the loco to pass from the digital area to the DC area. (I suspect the module may in fact have an internal relay that initially set that section to digital signal and when it detects current draw, switches it to DC. This prevents the slider from letting DC power into the rest of the layout - which would slow down all the locos elsewhere.

Once it gets into the second section, it gets DC current and that makes the loco decoder go into its deceleration. The CV settings will determine how fast that happens (and hence how far the loco will travel). This means the deceleration of that loco will always be the same no matter where on the layout it is.

The third section is a safety track (because the above approach is essentially unreliable for two reasons).
a) in case the ABV has been set too low, the loco may not have reached speed zero by the time it gets to the signal.
b) the loco may be an older decoder that does not have a deceleration mode

In both cases, (if the signal is red) the third section will have no power and locos will be forced to stop.
Digital functions such as smoke and sound may also be forced off.
Locos without ABV will make a sudden stop.

Now they don't say what the heck one is meant to do if that track also carries traffic that runs the other way! When trains run the other way, the signal must be red and in that case you dont want the train to stop in the other direction. Perhaps they have a current detector in the third track that detects traffic coming from the other side of the signal, and in that case set the track current is set as if the signal was green.

The reason they have gone to all this complexity is because there is no 'plug and play' hardware that can know the address of the loco that is approaching the signal. To know the address they would need some software that maintains what loco is where.

They missed a huge opportunity to solve this when they brought out mFx which had the capability for two-way communications. They could let it broadcast its address! Then an isolated track could have fed into a module that learned the address of the loco and simply sends the appropriate speed steps to slow the loco to a stop. This would have enabled actual digital control.

So with digital controllers that just simulate analog controllers (train speed, stop, direction, + functions), this type of control is probably the best you can get. It means that signals control trains, functions will probably go off, and some trains will stop suddenly. No problem for Carpetbahns and kids playing with toys.

If one cares about smooth stopping with functions always staying on, and one is using a digital system that has good enough software to be able to be told where trains should stop and where the sensors are, all the complexity (and expense) can be in the software. Not only does one get good control of stopping, but also the ability to make trains go at different speeds in different areas of the layout (track speed limits, heavy loads, hidden areas, etc), better control of functions (I switch sounds and lights etc, off when it goes into hidden areas), double heading, audio announcements, departure and arrival boards etc., etc.

Another big problem with braking modules is that they will only work if the loco is at the front of the train. Push-pull operations of S-Bahn trains with the loco at the back won't work. I think this is why they sometimes add a second pickup and switching between them (even more complexity!) to some trains so that the pick-up shoe is always at the leading end and the other shoe is disconnected. ugh!

Ultimately, they do get to sell more goodies so there is probably not a lot of incentive to guide their customers well.

For the digitally minded who want to approach control from a locomotive perspective, that is true.

But there are people who want to control their layout from a signalling perspective, that is operate the layout by controlling the signals (and not the locos) - and these modules serve that purpose. You can get the trains going, and then just sit there and manually switch the signals, which cause the braking modules to slow/stop/restart the trains when they get to the modules. Another way of running a layout - maybe not one we loco-control minded folks desire, but a valid way of doing it none the less.

Hello Dale,

Thank you for your detailed explanations. You gave me a better understanding of these brake modules. There I am a table and/or carpet railroader (depends on my mood and the size of my layout). My trains only have to stop in front of a signal and this can be achieved with a decoder m84 too. Makes it cheap to me and even Märklin is recommending to use a m 84 as a signal in not seen areas like a shadow station.

Best regards

Wolfgang