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Offline morsing  
#1 Posted : 06 October 2018 14:19:33(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Hi,

I'm still shocked by the prices of some of these electronics modules, why do they have to cost so much and why have no Chinese companies picked up on this and started selling copies for $2?

Anyway, if something as simple as this works, why pay $25 for something that says "Marklin" or else on it?

http://www.jornebanen.dk...msemodul/Bremsemodul.htm
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline DaleSchultz  
#2 Posted : 06 October 2018 16:24:33(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
why anyone would buy a braking module in this digital age still bewilders me. The whole idea behind digital control is to control the locomotives individually and specifically. Braking modules are analog devices that trample the digital control.

https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2006/11/computer-control.html

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline morsing  
#3 Posted : 06 October 2018 18:23:54(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
why anyone would buy a braking module in this digital age still bewilders me. The whole idea behind digital control is to control the locomotives individually and specifically. Braking modules are analog devices that trample the digital control.

https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2006/11/computer-control.html



You're right, however, a Marklin Central Station + S88 modules is also an expensive project.

My problem is that, even though it can all be computer controlled, I like to run trains by hand, and I don't understand the computer control part well enough to know if that is still possible. I also can't afford a Central Station, and have been looking for alternatives. Can a Roco Z21 be used to hook up a computer with RocRail? Can it be used simultaneously with a Mobile Station?

If I use RocRail, can automated trains be made to stop if my manually run train gets in the way?

I really need all these questions answered before I start throwing money at stuff.

Thanks
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 06 October 2018 21:09:26(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
indeed, do find out before spending any money.
If you plan on PC control, you need:
a) sensors placed at the right places
b) software that talks to the controller you buy
c) software that maintains state of what train is where

The concept itself is very simple but sadly, most manufactures, dealers and hence many in the hobby, just don't get it.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
MrB32  
#5 Posted: : 13 October 2018 06:57:13(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 260
Morsing,

We all made our mistakes at the beginning, it's part of the fun... Daleschulz is right, the basics are simple, but it's what you make with them that can be complicated... I don't know how much experience you have, but given you use a mobile station, I am assuming that everything will be relatively new for you. Apologies in advance if this is not the case :)

First of all, I found that a good track plan is the key to a successful automation. So before throwing money at anything, I would recommend a serious look at what you want to achieve, may be post your track plan on this forum and ask for recommendations, I can think of quite a few members who would be happy to assist. This information could prove useful in guiding your investment decisions. You may even find that all you need is a second hand CS2 (they are getting cheaper by the day on the second hand market) and a couple of modules.

Looking at your post:
- The Z21 can be used to control Märklin trains and to interface with RocRail. I have no experience with this command station so am not able to advise for or against.
- Computer control and manual control are not mutually exclusive, but a good track plan and block design is required for safe operation.
- Cheaper alternatives: I think the issue at that stage is really one of understanding the basics, so investing in cheap alternatives might not be the best option, as you will have to battle with different levels of quality in terms of support and documentation at a time when you are also trying to understand how the stuff works. You might end with a patchwork of technology that is cumbersome to operate (for example different power requirements or communication protocols) and witness finger pointing between manufacturers when you discover that something isn't working.
- For computer control: all you need in theory is the Marklin "gleisbox", the little black or grey box you plug the mobile station into. It is the part of the system that converts and transmits the command/feedback signals to/from the track. There are modules on the market to interface between this device and a computer running the software of your choice. So in theory, so you don't even need a dedicated command station anymore. There are also plenty of alternatives available to the Märklin brake, signal and feedback modules. Most software can interface with this hardware and allows both manual and automatic control, it can be as easy or elaborate as you want it to be.
Offline Johnvr  
#6 Posted : 13 October 2018 10:31:54(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Braking modules are analog devices that trample the digital control.



Dale,

In my mind, when a train enters a braking section of track, the braking modules send a feedback message to the controller which then digitally reduces the speed to zero according to the braking delay which you have set for the locomotive. I think this is the same as your train controller which reduces speed digitally when triggered by an event. On the Marklin CS2 you can calibrate the deceleration curve manually in a similar method to the speed control curve which you calibrate on your train controller.

I think your comment that the braking modules are analog devices would lead me to assume that somehow the capacitor and diodes in the braking module override the digital footprint and reduce the speed by analog electrical means, but I do not believe that this is the case.

I do absolutely agree with your other comment in your blog that the more s88 feedback points which you have, the better your control of your trains. On my layout, I have 48 feedback points (3 x s88 each of which has 16 ports) and they are all wired up to be used by the CS2.

Furthermore, (and this is a massive admission for someone who has built all of my own braking modules and use them all on my layout) I can see how you can run an entire layout using a controller (eg Marklin CS2, train controller, etc) and feedback sensors like s88 and without using braking modules. The s88 triggers an event on the controller, and the controller adjusts the speed of the train. However, the event management in the CS2 is still a fairly slow experience, so it would take a lot of patience to program your trains for each event on the layout. In addition, the 'conditional event' feature in the CS2 falls short of allowing conditional routing based on the position of solenoid accessories, something which I believe is now being incorporated into the CS3.

Notwithstanding all of the above, I have to say that I am delighted with the train control on my own layout. I believe that it all came together in a moment of time when technology allowed me to do what I wanted to do. I can of course go out and buy all of the latest equipment and leapfrog forwards, but this would be at quite some cost now.

For information, I use Marklin CS2, Marklin s88 feedback, and I made my own braking modules.

RegardsBigGrin
John

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Offline morsing  
#7 Posted : 13 October 2018 10:40:44(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

My issues with computer controlled trains are:

1) Price
2) Boring
3) I still can't figure out have much you can mix manual and semi-automatic running
4) It appears extremely difficult to have realistic brake length

I love controlling my trains and don't want to lose the ability of my mobile station or similar device. All I really want is that if I send a train running and I've left another train on the track, or if I move a shunter out on a main track, etc, the running train will slow down and stop. I have still not seen evidence that RocRail can do that.

Thanks
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline PeFu  
#8 Posted : 13 October 2018 11:38:27(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,208
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post

My issues with computer controlled trains are:

1) Price
2) Boring
3) I still can't figure out have much you can mix manual and semi-automatic running
4) It appears extremely difficult to have realistic brake length

I love controlling my trains and don't want to lose the ability of my mobile station or similar device. All I really want is that if I send a train running and I've left another train on the track, or if I move a shunter out on a main track, etc, the running train will slow down and stop. I have still not seen evidence that RocRail can do that.

Thanks


Using a good software package, you can run trains manually, semi-automatically or automatically. Semi-automatically is IMHO the most ”realistic” mode of operation: You can start the train, change speed, select functions, and stop the train. However, the software prevents you from accidents, like crashing into other trains being run automatically. This mode is great also if there are several persons running trains on the layout. Below is a test I did using Railroad & Co TrainController with the SmartHand add-on:



In the test, the computer stops the train in a ”Managed” operation, i.e. nice and slow. You can also select an ”Emergency” operation instead, where the trains will be stopped prompt, if the user forgets to slow down and stop.

Boring? Not in my opinion! Expensive? Well, this adds so much fun compared to buying two additional engines... And: It’s up to you to set a realistic brake length. Even if you set 200 cm between physical S88 contacts (for ”Brake” and ”Stop”), in the software, you can set a number between 0 and 200 cm as brake length.

Hope this explains a bit! Cool

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 13 October 2018 13:15:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post
I think your comment that the braking modules are analog devices would lead me to assume that somehow the capacitor and diodes in the braking module override the digital footprint and reduce the speed by analog electrical means, but I do not believe that this is the case.
Märklin braking modules are analogue devices: they send DC to the decoder.
Decoders that support this mode of braking will then reduce the speed to zero using the braking delay set in the decoder.
The Märklin braking modules do not send feedback to the controller.

ABC braking modules use a similar pattern.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#10 Posted : 13 October 2018 17:25:17(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post

In my mind, when a train enters a braking section of track, the braking modules send a feedback message to the controller which then digitally reduces the speed to zero according to the braking delay which you have set for the locomotive.

That would be nice, and in fact you have just described what an s88 does. A sensor! Yes a logical person would assume exactly what you describe! But the controller has no knowledge of the braking section or the arrival of the train there.

Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post

I think your comment that the braking modules are analog devices would lead me to assume that somehow the capacitor and diodes in the braking module override the digital footprint and reduce the speed by analog electrical means, but I do not believe that this is the case.

half right, essentially the braking module converts the current into DC, and the decoder in the loco uses that as a signal to stop.

Which exposes yet another flaw of the braking sections, they demand support from decoders. Old c80 decoders won't play the game. All new decoders now have to have a DC mode built into them, making their development and support that much more expensive.

Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post

..., the event management in the CS2 is still a fairly slow experience, so it would take a lot of patience to program your trains for each event on the layout. In addition, the 'conditional event' feature in the CS2 falls short of allowing conditional routing based on the position of solenoid accessories, something which I believe is now being incorporated into the CS3.


yes, this is what I was referring to when I said how the manufacturers don't get it either. They should have built in good robust support for maintaining the state of the layout so that digital layout control is easy to do. They should show people how and where to place the sensors and put all the complexity into the internal code of the controllers. The very first digital offering from Märklin in the 1980s, the 6050+CU+s88 provided all the hardware needed for full digital control including slowing and stopping of trains etc. using a computer. Whoever was designing the system back then knew what they were doing. They even provided sample Basic code that showed how to interface to the 6050. By 1990 Märklin had lost their way in the digital area, I visited them and offered them my software and they said they were not going to go into software at all. Well it took some decades and now they are trying to catch up with software. In any digital system, the software is the single most critical aspect. Bad software can ruin any good hardware design, and good software is hard to create.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 13 October 2018 17:29:10(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I should add, I dont blame anyone for using braking modules, I blame the manufacturers for providing such poor guidance that people starting to try to invent their own solutions, which are now entrenched.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline TEEWolf  
#12 Posted : 13 October 2018 18:55:49(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I'm still shocked by the prices of some of these electronics modules, why do they have to cost so much and why have no Chinese companies picked up on this and started selling copies for $2?

Anyway, if something as simple as this works, why pay $25 for something that says "Marklin" or else on it?

http://www.jornebanen.dk...msemodul/Bremsemodul.htm



Hello morsing,

Welcome to the club. "I'm still shocked by the prices of some of these electronics modules" - you are not he only one - ME TOO!

What to do? Looking in the internet for cheaper options. I reduce buying articles and be much more orientated at my budget as before. But unfortunately, sometimes you have to pay the price.

I bought a CS 3 looking before a longer time at the internet and then I got it with 15% discount. Prices vary often daily as I have recognized. If I am looking for an article I have to surf a lot in the internet before. If you have already a MS 2 I think sooner or later you will decide yourself for a CS 3. It must not be a CS 3+, the 60226 is absolutly perfect. Only if you wanted to expand afterwards you have to keep in mind that you only can do it by a CS 3+.

Yes a CS 3 is a lot of money. So I had quite similar ideas to buy another controller. But because I have Märklin and the MS 2 already, I always came back to the CS 2 first. Then I was really lucky. After a long time of searching I wanted to order the CS 2 and just a few days before was the announcement of the CS 3. Of course I waited for the CS 3 (although waiting time was almost another year!), but meanwhile I am so satisfied with my decisions, that I only can recommend a CS 3.

And at this shop you get a CS 3 with about 18% discount.

https://www.besserepreis...-mae&portal=94511215

And yes, you have to buy a power supply extra. Here is an offer as well:

https://www.besserepreis...teil-60-va,-230-volt.htm

Just think about and compare it with other controllers. If you have a MS 2 already than you have plenty of time for your decision. A MS 2 is really a cheap, good, helpful and useable controller, but not as convenient as a CS 3.Smile On the other hand both are usable with the magnificent Märklin card.

https://www.maerklin.de/...e/details/article/60135/

At Märklin pretty expensive, but here you get the same card cheaper:

https://www.reichelt.de/...arte-8kb-p37024.html?r=1

Beside the price the only difference is no Märklin logo on it.BigGrin

As far as I have made the experience, a Z21 is not working together with a MS 2. This is only done for a MS 2 with a CS 3. But I will talk to some members at my Märklin Club using a Z21 control and Märklin.

Best regards

TEEWolf
Offline morsing  
#13 Posted : 14 October 2018 08:12:00(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 586
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post


Using a good software package, you can run trains manually, semi-automatically or automatically. Semi-automatically is IMHO the most ”realistic” mode of operation: You can start the train, change speed, select functions, and stop the train. However, the software prevents you from accidents, like crashing into other trains being run automatically. This mode is great also if there are several persons running trains on the layout. Below is a test I did using Railroad & Co TrainController with the SmartHand add-on:

[...]

Boring? Not in my opinion! Expensive? Well, this adds so much fun compared to buying two additional engines... And: It’s up to you to set a realistic brake length. Even if you set 200 cm between physical S88 contacts (for ”Brake” and ”Stop”), in the software, you can set a number between 0 and 200 cm as brake length.

Hope this explains a bit! Cool



Thanks, exactly what I needed to know! Although I think a 2m brake length look artificial, I have a minimum of 3m and 5m for my freight trains. So if my 2m station is one block, they actually need to start stopping at the previous block. Is that possible?

But the cost... Seriously. Even a 2nd hand CS2 still seem to go for almost 400 pounds and then you need S88s on top...
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline Johnvr  
#14 Posted : 14 October 2018 08:33:00(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,269
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Hi all,

Just for extra fun, I made a video of my Diesel braking over a distance of about 4m with the brakes squealing all of the way.
Activated by a s88 , event and set maximum braking delay on the decoder.

Johnvr Squealing Brakes


RegardsBigGrin
John
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Offline PeFu  
#15 Posted : 14 October 2018 08:54:12(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,208
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post

Thanks, exactly what I needed to know! Although I think a 2m brake length look artificial, I have a minimum of 3m and 5m for my freight trains. So if my 2m station is one block, they actually need to start stopping at the previous block. Is that possible?

But the cost... Seriously. Even a 2nd hand CS2 still seem to go for almost 400 pounds and then you need S88s on top...


Regarding brakes: Easy. In the block before the station, for (some) trains (or train categories) heading towards the station, you set a speed decrease from e.g. 80 km/h (or 50 mph), down to approx. 40 km/h (or 25 mph). In the station block, the speed is further decreased til the train stops at the selected spot. Or if it shouldn’t stop, it continues at 40 km/h through the station block.

Regarding cost: Well, the rangier croc (39567) I want is approx. 500 EUR...

Drool
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
Offline DaleSchultz  
#16 Posted : 15 October 2018 16:14:20(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
yes, once in the computer world, one can decide what speed the train will be doing when it 'starts' stopping. So if you need to stop over 20m (and you have that much space) then you can do that.

What I do in my software is decide where the train is going to stop (before it starts), so I know the speed at that point is to be zero. Then I work out what the maximum speed can be when entering the last track, and that then determines the entry speed. That entry speed then determines the end speed, and hence also entry speed, into the penultimate track - and so on. When calculating all these speeds I take into account the speed limits of the tracks, speed limits of the loco(s) involved, and the deceleration of the train given its mass and number of axles.

Once the train is started, the s88s along the way report its progress. Desired and actual speeds are continuously calculated and speed commands sent out.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline TEEWolf  
#17 Posted : 16 October 2018 00:02:32(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
yes, once in the computer world, one can decide what speed the train will be doing when it 'starts' stopping. So if you need to stop over 20m (and you have that much space) then you can do that.

What I do in my software is decide where the train is going to stop (before it starts), so I know the speed at that point is to be zero. Then I work out what the maximum speed can be when entering the last track, and that then determines the entry speed. That entry speed then determines the end speed, and hence also entry speed, into the penultimate track - and so on. When calculating all these speeds I take into account the speed limits of the tracks, speed limits of the loco(s) involved, and the deceleration of the train given its mass and number of axles.

Once the train is started, the s88s along the way report its progress. Desired and actual speeds are continuously calculated and speed commands sent out.



I am confused, what is about the ABV (= Anfahr- und Bremsverzögerung) F4 function key?

In the manual e.g. of my shunting croc 39567 is for acceleration delay (=A) - CV 03 - and braking (=B) delay (=V for German Verzögerung) - CV 04 - defined. Values can be set between 01 and 255.
Offline TEEWolf  
#18 Posted : 17 October 2018 16:56:18(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I should add, I dont blame anyone for using braking modules, I blame the manufacturers for providing such poor guidance that people starting to try to invent their own solutions, which are now entrenched.


Hello Dale,

do you know the 72442 signal braking module?

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/72442/

OK Märklin named it braking module. Inside they are writing, it may only be used for locos in connection with decoders getting the ABV function. I do not have practical experience with a braking modul, but it confuses me. In the actual Märklin Magazine 05/2018 is a long article about using the braking module 72442 for a realistic stop in front of a red signal.

Here is the article of the MM 05/2018, of course and unfortunately in German.

https://www.maerklin.de/...einsetzen_MM_2018_05.pdf

I think the diagrams in there are already useful to see the application of a braking module. What do you think about it? I do not understand why this functin is not included into a loco decoder even this decoders has already an ABV function on board? Just and only a money making function too?

Best regards

Wolfgang
Offline DaleSchultz  
#19 Posted : 17 October 2018 18:40:21(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post


do you know the 72442 signal braking module?



yes, I looked at the docs again, (German no problem for me), I think I can explain it.

They are trying to make the signal set whether or not the train must stop.
So if the signal is red, the module knows to do its braking effort. If it is green, then all three tracks get digital signal as usual.

To this mess they now add the ABV, the ABV setting controls how fast the train decelerates, once it gets into the DC voltage. Now when I say one could stop over a distance of 20m I would not tell it to go to speed zero, and let the loco slow down itself to stop. I would send speed commands over time to bring it to a halt. This works with any digital decoder.

The setup now demands three isolated sections! The first section allows the loco to pass from the digital area to the DC area. (I suspect the module may in fact have an internal relay that initially set that section to digital signal and when it detects current draw, switches it to DC. This prevents the slider from letting DC power into the rest of the layout - which would slow down all the locos elsewhere.

Once it gets into the second section, it gets DC current and that makes the loco decoder go into its deceleration. The CV settings will determine how fast that happens (and hence how far the loco will travel). This means the deceleration of that loco will always be the same no matter where on the layout it is.

The third section is a safety track (because the above approach is essentially unreliable for two reasons).
a) in case the ABV has been set too low, the loco may not have reached speed zero by the time it gets to the signal.
b) the loco may be an older decoder that does not have a deceleration mode

In both cases, (if the signal is red) the third section will have no power and locos will be forced to stop.
Digital functions such as smoke and sound may also be forced off.
Locos without ABV will make a sudden stop.

Now they don't say what the heck one is meant to do if that track also carries traffic that runs the other way! When trains run the other way, the signal must be red and in that case you dont want the train to stop in the other direction. Perhaps they have a current detector in the third track that detects traffic coming from the other side of the signal, and in that case set the track current is set as if the signal was green.

The reason they have gone to all this complexity is because there is no 'plug and play' hardware that can know the address of the loco that is approaching the signal. To know the address they would need some software that maintains what loco is where.

They missed a huge opportunity to solve this when they brought out mFx which had the capability for two-way communications. They could let it broadcast its address! Then an isolated track could have fed into a module that learned the address of the loco and simply sends the appropriate speed steps to slow the loco to a stop. This would have enabled actual digital control.

So with digital controllers that just simulate analog controllers (train speed, stop, direction, + functions), this type of control is probably the best you can get. It means that signals control trains, functions will probably go off, and some trains will stop suddenly. No problem for Carpetbahns and kids playing with toys.

If one cares about smooth stopping with functions always staying on, and one is using a digital system that has good enough software to be able to be told where trains should stop and where the sensors are, all the complexity (and expense) can be in the software. Not only does one get good control of stopping, but also the ability to make trains go at different speeds in different areas of the layout (track speed limits, heavy loads, hidden areas, etc), better control of functions (I switch sounds and lights etc, off when it goes into hidden areas), double heading, audio announcements, departure and arrival boards etc., etc.

Another big problem with braking modules is that they will only work if the loco is at the front of the train. Push-pull operations of S-Bahn trains with the loco at the back won't work. I think this is why they sometimes add a second pickup and switching between them (even more complexity!) to some trains so that the pick-up shoe is always at the leading end and the other shoe is disconnected. ugh!

Ultimately, they do get to sell more goodies so there is probably not a lot of incentive to guide their customers well.


Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline David Dewar  
#20 Posted : 17 October 2018 21:08:20(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
The problem for the OP appears to be cost. However the purchase of a CS3 or S/H CS2 is not cheap but I have had my CS2 for around 8 or more years and it is still going well and if I wanted I could probably sell it for almost what it cost.

My view is to spend on the best control system and power pack (don't start which one please) you can afford and wait a bit longer for your next loco.

Marklin model rail will never be cheap but it is worth buying the correct item which will last and do everything that you require.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Minok  
#21 Posted : 17 October 2018 22:10:14(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
why anyone would buy a braking module in this digital age still bewilders me. The whole idea behind digital control is to control the locomotives individually and specifically. Braking modules are analog devices that trample the digital control.

https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com/2006/11/computer-control.html



For the digitally minded who want to approach control from a locomotive perspective, that is true.

But there are people who want to control their layout from a signalling perspective, that is operate the layout by controlling the signals (and not the locos) - and these modules serve that purpose. You can get the trains going, and then just sit there and manually switch the signals, which cause the braking modules to slow/stop/restart the trains when they get to the modules. Another way of running a layout - maybe not one we loco-control minded folks desire, but a valid way of doing it none the less.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Minok  
#22 Posted : 17 October 2018 22:12:20(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I'm still shocked by the prices of some of these electronics modules, why do they have to cost so much and why have no Chinese companies picked up on this and started selling copies for $2?

Anyway, if something as simple as this works, why pay $25 for something that says "Marklin" or else on it?

http://www.jornebanen.dk...msemodul/Bremsemodul.htm


Part of the pricing is the brand mark-up to be sure, but part of it is supporting a dealer network that has to allow the dealers and distributors to mark up along the way to make their own profit. The more steps between factory and end-consumer, the more markup.
Then there is the added support and warranty costs - When a major maker puts out a product they commit to supporting it for some time, having spares, etc. A direct from a Chinese factory purchase has no such need, and is direct to consumer sometimes so you can get it much cheaper of course.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline TEEWolf  
#23 Posted : 19 October 2018 04:24:15(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post


yes, I looked at the docs again, (German no problem for me), I think I can explain it.

They are trying to make the signal set whether or not the train must stop.
So if the signal is red, the module knows to do its braking effort. If it is green, then all three tracks get digital signal as usual.

...

So with digital controllers that just simulate analog controllers (train speed, stop, direction, + functions), this type of control is probably the best you can get. It means that signals control trains, functions will probably go off, and some trains will stop suddenly. No problem for Carpetbahns and kids playing with toys.


Hello Dale,

Thank you for your detailed explanations. You gave me a better understanding of these brake modules. There I am a table and/or carpet railroader (depends on my mood and the size of my layout). My trains only have to stop in front of a signal and this can be achieved with a decoder m84 too. Makes it cheap to me and even Märklin is recommending to use a m 84 as a signal in not seen areas like a shadow station.

Best regards

Wolfgang
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Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 19 October 2018 08:35:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Makes it cheap to me and even Märklin is recommending to use a m 84 as a signal in not seen areas like a shadow station.
Long trains will sometimes derail when stopped abruptly in a curve. The m84 does the job, but it does not look good, even if the train does not derail.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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