Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,277
|
Summer new for the mLD and mSD. This capacitor is for prevent against light flickering and the sound dropout from dirty track sections. Sure...even motor dropout by off dirty tracks. Märklin verified that even Märklinist need power capacitor to support better contact with the locomotive on the tracks. It doesn´t have the problem by add the extra weight on the locomotive which somebody here in the forum did wrote. It´s just simple dirty tracks. Any one try to get this power capacitor and test it?? Edited by user 21 April 2018 22:22:39(UTC)
| Reason: Not specified |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
|
Originally Posted by: Goofy 
Any one try to get this power capacitor and test it??
Give them half a chance Goofy, they have only just announced it. We have had only two shopping days since then - and that is if you include the day they announced it.
|
 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,448 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
|
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: Goofy
Any one try to get this power capacitor and test it??
Give them half a chance Goofy, they have only just announced it. We have had only two shopping days since then - and that is if you include the day they announced it. I think the intent of Goofys query is quite appropriate at this time. Now that the item has been announced any insider with knowledge will be free to talk about. Some of those will (should) have seen a prototype Any Dealer worth there salt will have already asked the same question and, Marklin if they have any intelligence will have furnished them with both marketing hype and some level of detail. Aside from this 60974 item itself, there are other manufacturers who offer the same capability and a discussion on the experiences and pitfalls is helpful in determining whether I would even consider buying it. for example , early "UPS" type devices caused havoc driving through dead sections. The words that accompany the 60974 almost imply it is for sound (and maybe lights) only - no motor. This is the first question I would pose as it implies a bit more work to attach than just "pluging it in" |
Peter
|
3 users liked this useful post by clapcott
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,277
|
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: Goofy
Any one try to get this power capacitor and test it??
Give them half a chance Goofy, they have only just announced it. We have had only two shopping days since then - and that is if you include the day they announced it. Other manufacture like Roco,ESU and Brawa do have power capacitor too for the three rail. They did provide good test result. There is an reason why Märklin also follows the same pattern. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: clapcott Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: Goofy
Any one try to get this power capacitor and test it??
Give them half a chance Goofy, they have only just announced it. We have had only two shopping days since then - and that is if you include the day they announced it. I think the intent of Goofys query is quite appropriate at this time. Now that the item has been announced any insider with knowledge will be free to talk about. Some of those will (should) have seen a prototype Any Dealer worth there salt will have already asked the same question and, Marklin if they have any intelligence will have furnished them with both marketing hype and some level of detail. Aside from this 60974 item itself, there are other manufacturers who offer the same capability and a discussion on the experiences and pitfalls is helpful in determining whether I would even consider buying it. for example , early "UPS" type devices caused havoc driving through dead sections. The words that accompany the 60974 almost imply it is for sound (and maybe lights) only - no motor. This is the first question I would pose as it implies a bit more work to attach than just "pluging it in" Dear Fellow Märklineers, Like the vast majority of those of you who post on this excellent forum, I do like my Märklin and the vast majority of my collection is by Märklin. I must say, however, that when I seek a digital conversion of various sorts, I tend to use an ESU decoder. Thus in comment to this stream of postings, I point out that ESU have marketed this sort of device for quite some time : http://www.esu.eu/en/pro...werpacks/powerpack-mini/Regards, PJ
|
4 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia
|
Judging by normal Märklin documentation practices, we may still have questions about how this powerpack works even after it is on sale to the public, let alone just days after it is announced.  |
Regards,
Jim
I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time. |
1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
|
Originally Posted by: clapcott Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: Goofy
Any one try to get this power capacitor and test it??
Give them half a chance Goofy, they have only just announced it. We have had only two shopping days since then - and that is if you include the day they announced it. I think the intent of Goofys query is quite appropriate at this time. Now that the item has been announced any insider with knowledge will be free to talk about. Some of those will (should) have seen a prototype Any Dealer worth there salt will have already asked the same question and, Marklin if they have any intelligence will have furnished them with both marketing hype and some level of detail. Aside from this 60974 item itself, there are other manufacturers who offer the same capability and a discussion on the experiences and pitfalls is helpful in determining whether I would even consider buying it. for example , early "UPS" type devices caused havoc driving through dead sections. The words that accompany the 60974 almost imply it is for sound (and maybe lights) only - no motor. This is the first question I would pose as it implies a bit more work to attach than just "pluging it in" All correct and I agree with your argumentation. I extend it and ask, why is this buffer not standard on every decoder board and has to be bought extra? Why is not the motor included? Does anybody has experience with other decoders and buffers, where the motor is included in the "buffer zone" (or as you name it in English)? But please, can you tell me, how can I test a product, which is still not availbale for buying? That's it what Märklin says at its homepage https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/60974/by writing "article is not yet in stock".
|
1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
|
 I think Goofy should buy one of these, mount it in one of his Märklin mSD- or mLD-driven locomotives and then test it on his Märklin layout with his Märklin controller. I'm looking forward to read the test report.  Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
5 users liked this useful post by Purellum
|
|
|
|
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
|
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf
All correct and I agree with your argumentation. I extend it and ask, why is this buffer not standard on every decoder board and has to be bought extra? Why is not the motor included?
It is not always possible to fit large enough capacitors to a decoder to allow sufficient 'hold up' time. Often they are not needed, ad it is only very difficult locos that require these. Another factor is that the place where the decoder goes often only has room for just the decoder, so any buffer capacitors have to be put elsewhere, so it is handy to have it as a separate unit. But what I want to know, before 'jumping in with both feet' on Marklin decoders is does this buffer capacitor unit have the same facility as the ESU one to handle being on the programming track? The ESU one has some smarts in the decoder and on the buffer capacitor board to take it out of circuit when a decoder is being programmed so the decoder can send feedback by pulsing the motor off and on. The trouble with having the capacitor in circuit is that it draws a lot of current when power is applied, and this fouls u the programming process, so ESU switches it out. Now looking at the picture of the Marklin one there are enough contacts and components to suggest it has the same capability, but it will be nice to have this confirmed. The other factor is that it talks in terms of having 1 farad of capacitance. Now the only capacitors with such large capacitance ar every low voltage, so I can't see how this can supply the motor without a step up voltage converter - maybe this is the source of some of the extra components.
|
4 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,277
|
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf All correct and I agree with your argumentation. I extend it and ask, why is this buffer not standard on every decoder board and has to be bought extra? Why is not the motor included? Does anybody has experience with other decoders and buffers, where the motor is included in the "buffer zone" (or as you name it in English)? But please, can you tell me, how can I test a product, which is still not availbale for buying? That's it what Märklin says at its homepage https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/60974/by writing "article is not yet in stock". If you did read my first post i did wrote if any one try to get this... Let´s see if any one do this test. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,277
|
Originally Posted by: Purellum
I think Goofy should buy one of these, mount it in one of his Märklin mSD- or mLD-driven locomotives
and then test it on his Märklin layout with his Märklin controller.
I'm looking forward to read the test report.
Per.
You have seen three rail locomotives with the power capacitor working on the tracks? I have ESU locomotive which works in both two and three rail. This locomotive really works nice and better than Märklin. You too should try. When Märklin did present power capacitor they mean theirs locomotive needs extra power. It says evidence about porr contact with the Märklins locomotive on the three rail tracks. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia
|
Originally Posted by: Goofy
You have seen three rail locomotives with the power capacitor working on the tracks?
I have ESU locomotive which works in both two and three rail.
This locomotive really works nice and better than Märklin.
You too should try.
When Märklin did present power capacitor they mean theirs locomotive needs extra power.
It says evidence about porr contact with the Märklins locomotive on the three rail tracks.
Lots of loco manufacturers, such as ESU, have long used capacitors as standard equipment in their best models, both for 2 and 3 rail. I have an ESU V200 with a capacitor that is amazing and it ran great, when it ran. But the motor died in 3-5 hours of easy break in use, so no company is perfect. I think it is nice to have the option this provides since I like to do upgrades of older locos and capacitors are definitely a plus. It may be a bit boring for some but staying strictly within the Märklin ecosystem has definite advantages and avoids some of the problems people see with hybrid technology systems. It limits what you can do but avoids some of the issues you might have to deal with otherwise. Maybe I am just overly sensitive because I get paid to diagnose much harder software problems at work and my train time is supposed to be my time away from that stuff. |
Regards,
Jim
I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time. |
2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,277
|
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Lots of loco manufacturers, such as ESU, have long used capacitors as standard equipment in their best models, both for 2 and 3 rail. I have an ESU V200 with a capacitor that is amazing and it ran great, when it ran. But the motor died in 3-5 hours of easy break in use, so no company is perfect. I think it is nice to have the option this provides since I like to do upgrades of older locos and capacitors are definitely a plus. It may be a bit boring for some but staying strictly within the Märklin ecosystem has definite advantages and avoids some of the problems people see with hybrid technology systems. It limits what you can do but avoids some of the issues you might have to deal with otherwise. Maybe I am just overly sensitive because I get paid to diagnose much harder software problems at work and my train time is supposed to be my time away from that stuff. It´s truth that train models breaks too. So does for the Märklin too. But Märklin did present an new and it´s power capacitor 60974. This is to avoid from flickering lighting,sounds and motor dropout in the dead end or by off oxid dirty on the tracks. I´m pretty sure you do have sometimes problem with the Märklins locomotive and with power capacitor you don´t need problem on the tracks? Or for the lighting in the wagons? |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,277
|
Originally Posted by: Purellum
test it on his layout with his Märklin controller.
I'm looking forward to read the test report.
Per.
What Märklin controller? I use Lenz with DCC protocol. You can use DCC protocol on the three rail tracks too with an locomotive equipped with power capacitor. Many Märklinist do that with the Märklin trains too. Some people use ESU decoder with the power capacitor on the Märklin tracks. Other use Doehler&Haass with the power capacitor too on the Märklin tracks. You know it and don´t need read the test report. |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia
|
I must say that all the locos in wich i have considered to put a power pack, are non Maerklin ones..... |
 German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL |
1 user liked this useful post by franciscohg
|
|
|
|
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
|
Originally Posted by: Goofy Originally Posted by: TEEWolf All correct and I agree with your argumentation. I extend it and ask, why is this buffer not standard on every decoder board and has to be bought extra? Why is not the motor included? Does anybody has experience with other decoders and buffers, where the motor is included in the "buffer zone" (or as you name it in English)? But please, can you tell me, how can I test a product, which is still not availbale for buying? That's it what Märklin says at its homepage https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/60974/by writing "article is not yet in stock". If you did read my first post i did wrote if any one try to get this... Let´s see if any one do this test. Well, you obviously didn't even look to see if it is available yet - like TEEWolf did - if you had you would have had your answer without writing on here and made a few more people wonder about your questions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
|
Originally Posted by: Goofy Originally Posted by: Purellum
I think Goofy should buy one of these, mount it in one of his Märklin mSD- or mLD-driven locomotives
and then test it on his Märklin layout with his Märklin controller.
I'm looking forward to read the test report.
Per.
You have seen three rail locomotives with the power capacitor working on the tracks? I have ESU locomotive which works in both two and three rail. This locomotive really works nice and better than Märklin. You too should try. When Märklin did present power capacitor they mean theirs locomotive needs extra power. It says evidence about porr contact with the Märklins locomotive on the three rail tracks. If that is the case why do ESU also supply power capacitors ??? 
|
1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,277
|
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan
Well, you obviously didn't even look to see if it is available yet - like TEEWolf did - if you had you would have had your answer without writing on here and made a few more people wonder about your questions.
What is wrong with you?? Did i wrote power capacitor already out in the market? No i did wrote try to get this... You can any way use ESU power capacitor too and connect with the mLD or mSD. If you don´t want to wait until Märklins arrived out? |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,277
|
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Like Brawa,Roco and Fleischmann for the three rail. Now it´s Märklin turn... Still confused?  Come on...why do people use power capacitor in the locomotive? |
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,689 Location: United Kingdom
|
60974 Expected delivery: Q3/2018
Better to wait for someone to test after delivery. |
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy. |
2 users liked this useful post by steventrain
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,453 Location: Scotland
|
Maybe I am lucky but my Marklin locos run OK as they are. I do however clean the tracks and sliders on a regular basis. |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
2 users liked this useful post by David Dewar
|
|
|
|
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia
|
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Perhaps for the same reason I use ESU decoders?  ( post # 5) (I do not have any ESU locomotives)  Regards, PJ
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC) Posts: 696 Location: Cheshire, UK
|
Originally Posted by: steventrain 60974 Expected delivery: Q3/2018
Better to wait for someone to test after delivery. I've ordered some, so I'll give them a test when they arrive. Mr Sieber promised me a couple of years ago that Märklin would introduce a product like this. I hope it will also become a standard feature of Märklin locos from the factory. Nigel |
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today. |
4 users liked this useful post by Nigel Packer
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
|
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Originally Posted by: TEEWolf
All correct and I agree with your argumentation. I extend it and ask, why is this buffer not standard on every decoder board and has to be bought extra? Why is not the motor included?
It is not always possible to fit large enough capacitors to a decoder to allow sufficient 'hold up' time. Often they are not needed, ad it is only very difficult locos that require these. Another factor is that the place where the decoder goes often only has room for just the decoder, so any buffer capacitors have to be put elsewhere, so it is handy to have it as a separate unit. But what I want to know, before 'jumping in with both feet' on Marklin decoders is does this buffer capacitor unit have the same facility as the ESU one to handle being on the programming track? The ESU one has some smarts in the decoder and on the buffer capacitor board to take it out of circuit when a decoder is being programmed so the decoder can send feedback by pulsing the motor off and on. The trouble with having the capacitor in circuit is that it draws a lot of current when power is applied, and this fouls u the programming process, so ESU switches it out. Now looking at the picture of the Marklin one there are enough contacts and components to suggest it has the same capability, but it will be nice to have this confirmed. The other factor is that it talks in terms of having 1 farad of capacitance. Now the only capacitors with such large capacitance ar every low voltage, so I can't see how this can supply the motor without a step up voltage converter - maybe this is the source of some of the extra components. The space is certainly a good argument. But I do not like soldering very much , so I prefer a factory built in one. Anyway, against flickering light in coaches it has to built in in one coach as a minimum. I looked up the capacity for the ESU one and it has the same capacity as the Märklin, 1 Farad. For more information - I guess - we have to wait till it gets delivered. Just found this old thread fom 2010 at marklin-users.net. May be it is useful for somebody thinking about installing capacitors in its locos. https://www.marklin-user...g-a-330uF-capacitor.aspxEdited by user 24 April 2018 17:21:47(UTC)
| Reason: adding information about MUN thread
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
|
Just from a look at the photo of the product:  that is two 1F (aka 1,000 uF) electrolytic capacitors side by side. For similarly proportioned Panasonic brand 1,000uF electrolytic capacitors, the part is 12.5mm diameter, and 20mm tall, with the leads 5mm apart. Applying that to the picture that circuit board is probably 25mm wide, 30mm long, and 15mm thick. -UPDATE- OK, so 1,000uF capacitor is a 1mF capacitor as was rightly pointed out to me (my brain fart). That is 0.001 F. So IF Märklin is putting two 1F capacitors in there as the description claims, and they are of say a 25V specification, then things are VASTLY DIFFERENT than above. Those 1F capacitors are much bigger, come with screw terminals typically, and no way are those in the picture of that capacity - based on the other SMD components on the board. A sample part size is 3.937" Dia (100.00mm) and 10.000" (254.00mm) tall - good luck getting that anywhere inside of a rail car for one much less two. Add to that that a 1F 25vDC electrolytic capacitor costs around $220 a piece, all evidence suggest that the Märklin product description of Quote:"Leiterplatte mit 2 Pufferkondensatoren mit je 1 Farad zum Anschluss an die mLD3 und mSD3 " is just wrong - we don't know the capacitance but it could be 1mF. Edited by user 26 April 2018 01:00:03(UTC)
| Reason: Not specified |
|
1 user liked this useful post by Minok
|
|
|
|
Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,165
|
Yes, there are several tips about adding capacitors to both ESU & Märklin decoders to avoid light flickering since many years by soldering a capacitor + resistance between 2 pads on the circuit boards on the Internet and in the forum too...
However, I think a separate board with a capacitor value of 1F is overdoing it a bit, esp regarding the space available in some models... |
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb] |
1 user liked this useful post by Webmaster
|
|
|
|
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC) Posts: 426 Location: Worcestershire, UK
|
Originally Posted by: Minok J
that is two 1F (aka 1,000 uF) electrolytic capacitors side by side. Sorry but when I was at school 1000 micro-anythings cam out as 1 milli-. It was always my understanding that a 1 farad capacitor would be about the size of a house, but materials (and even definitions) change over time. This is what Wikipedia says: "For most applications, the farad is an impractically large unit of capacitance. Most electrical and electronic applications are covered by the following SI prefixes: 1 mF (millifarad, one thousandth (10−3) of a farad) = 1000 μF = 1000000 nF 1 μF (microfarad, one millionth (10−6) of a farad) = 0.000 001 F = 1000 nF = 1000000 pF 1 nF (nanofarad, one billionth (10−9) of a farad) = 0.001 μF = 1000 pF 1 pF (picofarad, one trillionth (10−12) of a farad)" |
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0) |
2 users liked this useful post by Robert Davies
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC) Posts: 2,578 Location: Sweden
|
On our company layout we added a 1000 uF capacitor in the locos to avoid problems with bad contact. We used conventional capacitors, not "supercapacitors" so we could only fit 1000 uF. The capacitor was connected via a diode in parallel with a 100 Ohm resistor, to avoid that it would disturb decoder programming and mfx feedback.
We connected the capacitor so that it also backed up the motor, not just the electronics. Even though we had such a low capacitor value it made very much difference for the reliability. For normal "playing with trains" I don't see so much need with a capacitor, but in our case we had the layout running unattended for long times (controlled remotely via the web) so reliability was very important.
As already pointed out there are hardly any 1 F capacitors with the voltage rating needed to supply the motor directly. So either there is a step-up circuitry or it just buffers the electronic circuitry. But to only buffer the electronics, 1 F is very much overkill.
|
3 users liked this useful post by perz
|
|
|
|
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
|
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Originally Posted by: Minok J
that is two 1F (aka 1,000 uF) electrolytic capacitors side by side. Sorry but when I was at school 1000 micro-anythings cam out as 1 milli-. It was always my understanding that a 1 farad capacitor would be about the size of a house, but materials (and even definitions) change over time. Whoops. Yes my bad. Stupid mistakes. 1F aka 1000000uf They have 1F capacities these days but the voltage rating isn't as bit if it's a reasonable size. Will fix the post when I can get back to a full computer rather than my phone. Yes 2F is a Tonne of charge storage, if the Märklin rating description is correct. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
|
OK, updated my post - which also suggests that Märklin's claim of two 1F caps on the board is not likely true unless the board is the size of a shoe and will cost over $500. |
|
1 user liked this useful post by Minok
|
|
|
|
 Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC) Posts: 683
|
Originally Posted by: Minok So IF Märklin is putting two 1F capacitors in there as the description claims, and they are of say a 25V specification, then things are VASTLY DIFFERENT than above.
The capacitors have a capacity of 1F, but not on 25V but on 5V or 2,6V !!! Therefore, the circuit contains a voltage step-up converter to deliver 16V DC to the Decoder! Similar solutions are available form Esu, Zimo, Lenz, Doehler&Haass, ... I welcome Märklins decision, to provide such a power pack by itself. I'm looking forward if it will be an intelligent version with microprozessor like the Doehler&Haass SP05A (http://doehler-haass.de/cms/pages/produkte/soundsystem/sp05a.php), which has a SUSI interface to configure the functionality. |
|
3 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
|
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 The capacitors have a capacity of 1F, but not on 25V but on 5V or 2,6V !!! Therefore, the circuit contains a voltage step-up converter to deliver 16V DC to the Decoder! Similar solutions are available form Esu, Zimo, Lenz, Doehler&Haass, ... I welcome Märklins decision, to provide such a power pack by itself. I'm looking forward if it will be an intelligent version with microprozessor like the Doehler&Haass SP05A (http://doehler-haass.de/cms/pages/produkte/soundsystem/sp05a.php), which has a SUSI interface to configure the functionality. Well for the Maerklin new capacitor we do not know very much about it. But it has 2*1 Farad and shall cost 40 €. Here the ESU one: http://www.esu.eu/en/pro...werpacks/powerpack-mini/The description says 1 Farad and producer price is 42 €. Is Maerklin now the better deal? Or is your mentioned Doehler & Hass capacitor even better? http://doehler-haass.de/...te/soundsystem/sp05a.phpAlso it has 2*0,5 Farad, but price shall be 27 to 31 €?
|
1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf
|
|
|
|
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,319 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
|
Ah. So then there is additional circuit to step down the track voltage to 2.5v before applying it for the capacitors as that's their rated capability. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
|
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 The capacitors have a capacity of 1F, but not on 25V but on 5V or 2,6V !!! Therefore, the circuit contains a voltage step-up converter to deliver 16V DC to the Decoder! Similar solutions are available form Esu, Zimo, Lenz, Doehler&Haass, ... I welcome Märklins decision, to provide such a power pack by itself. I'm looking forward if it will be an intelligent version with microprozessor like the Doehler&Haass SP05A (http://doehler-haass.de/cms/pages/produkte/soundsystem/sp05a.php), which has a SUSI interface to configure the functionality. Well for the Maerklin new capacitor we do not know very much about it. But it has 2*1 Farad and shall cost 40 €. Here the ESU one: http://www.esu.eu/en/pro...werpacks/powerpack-mini/The description says 1 Farad and producer price is 42 €. Is Maerklin now the better deal? Or is your mentioned Doehler & Hass capacitor even better? http://doehler-haass.de/...te/soundsystem/sp05a.phpAlso it has 2*0,5 Farad, but price shall be 27 to 31 €? Note also that as of Sept. 2017 the D&H units are not available due to component supply problems. They are also not accepting back orders.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC) Posts: 683
|
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 The capacitors have a capacity of 1F, but not on 25V but on 5V or 2,6V !!! Therefore, the circuit contains a voltage step-up converter to deliver 16V DC to the Decoder! Similar solutions are available form Esu, Zimo, Lenz, Doehler&Haass, ... I welcome Märklins decision, to provide such a power pack by itself. I'm looking forward if it will be an intelligent version with microprozessor like the Doehler&Haass SP05A (http://doehler-haass.de/cms/pages/produkte/soundsystem/sp05a.php), which has a SUSI interface to configure the functionality. Well for the Maerklin new capacitor we do not know very much about it. But it has 2*1 Farad and shall cost 40 €. Here the ESU one: http://www.esu.eu/en/pro...werpacks/powerpack-mini/The description says 1 Farad and producer price is 42 €. Is Maerklin now the better deal? Or is your mentioned Doehler & Hass capacitor even better? http://doehler-haass.de/...te/soundsystem/sp05a.phpAlso it has 2*0,5 Farad, but price shall be 27 to 31 €? I can't tell You, which one is better. But what I can say is, the D&H will work with every Decoder with SUSI interface, while the Esu will only work with Esu Decoders. And about the Märklin, there is nothing known except the capacity. I think we have to wait for the user manual. |
|
2 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
|
|
|
|
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,593 Location: Australia
|
Originally Posted by: perz On our company layout we added a 1000 uF capacitor in the locos to avoid problems with bad contact. We used conventional capacitors, not "supercapacitors" so we could only fit 1000 uF. The capacitor was connected via a diode in parallel with a 100 Ohm resistor, to avoid that it would disturb decoder programming and mfx feedback.
We connected the capacitor so that it also backed up the motor, not just the electronics. Even though we had such a low capacitor value it made very much difference for the reliability. For normal "playing with trains" I don't see so much need with a capacitor, but in our case we had the layout running unattended for long times (controlled remotely via the web) so reliability was very important.
As already pointed out there are hardly any 1 F capacitors with the voltage rating needed to supply the motor directly. So either there is a step-up circuitry or it just buffers the electronic circuitry. But to only buffer the electronics, 1 F is very much overkill.
So how is this actually wired into the loco's electrics? Something like this? (image is from https://wicknessmodels.co.uk/product/speikomp-stay-alive-capacitor-kit/ which is only 8 UK pounds )  |
Adrian Australia flag by abFlags.com |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
|
Originally Posted by: xxup Originally Posted by: perz On our company layout we added a 1000 uF capacitor in the locos to avoid problems with bad contact. We used conventional capacitors, not "supercapacitors" so we could only fit 1000 uF. The capacitor was connected via a diode in parallel with a 100 Ohm resistor, to avoid that it would disturb decoder programming and mfx feedback.
We connected the capacitor so that it also backed up the motor, not just the electronics. Even though we had such a low capacitor value it made very much difference for the reliability. For normal "playing with trains" I don't see so much need with a capacitor, but in our case we had the layout running unattended for long times (controlled remotely via the web) so reliability was very important.
As already pointed out there are hardly any 1 F capacitors with the voltage rating needed to supply the motor directly. So either there is a step-up circuitry or it just buffers the electronic circuitry. But to only buffer the electronics, 1 F is very much overkill.
So how is this actually wired into the loco's electrics? Something like this? (image is from https://wicknessmodels.co.uk/product/speikomp-stay-alive-capacitor-kit/ which is only 8 UK pounds ) If it is anything like the ESU one there are smarts in the decoder that disable the capacitor while doing DCC programming as the charge up current of the capacitor confuses the programming system. So I believe it will be somewhat more complicated than that schematic, which I think is of the style of device that needs to be disconnected before a loco can be programmed on a DCC programming track.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
|
Originally Posted by: Goofy
[...]
Any one try to get this power capacitor and test it??
How about now? Also, a schematic on how to connect it? |
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC) Posts: 619 Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
|
|
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
|
Originally Posted by: morsing Have you tested it? No, but you can do. Put the loco on your not yet cleaned layout and let it run. See the result. But you may also install artificial breaks in your layout by your current supply feeding and see, if your buffered loco runs without any break.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,801 Location: Crozet, Virginia
|
I have only one capacitor buffered loco, which is an ESU V200. I seldom have power problems on my layout so I can't really say that it is better or worse for having it. But on the ESU forum many people complain about power drops and loss of sound in their locos with capacitors, which makes no sense to me since that should be impossible. Of course it made no sense to them either and that is why they were venting online.
I can say that I think it is very possibly a worthwhile upgrade but not a cheap one, but which I do plan to try eventually. I honestly think that the capacitors are only needed if there are issues with the physical layout and that they are nice insurance but not a replacement for doing your track power right in the first place. |
Regards,
Jim
I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time. |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: 02/04/2013(UTC) Posts: 683
|
Hi, in my oppinion the Power Capacitors like those from D&H, Esu and Märklin are much too expensive. I prefer to use the common buffer circuit with an elektrolytical capacitor, resistor and Schottky Diode: https://modellbauhuette....puffer-schaltung-nutzen/With 1€ to 2€ per loco, it is much cheaper and it is enough to buffer short voltage cuts up to a second. That's the most important use case. Moritz |
|
5 users liked this useful post by Moritz-BR365
|
|
|
|
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
