Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline fje  
#1 Posted : 10 February 2017 10:54:40(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
This is somehow a continuation of another thread that was mainly dedicated on how to open and dismount the ref. lok.:

https://www.marklin-user...unt-the-cabin#post539772

As I told there I feel that the work to do from now on had to be in a new thread, more dedicated to the digitalization of the lok and the swiss lights implementation. So, I repeat here the last post I put in the ref. thread:

*******

Just starting the digitalization plan of work I discovered one problem that forces me to make a decisión between different alternatives:

Problem: The decoder I have and plan to use (ESU kit 64632) only have 4 functions: head and rear lights, AUX1 and AUX2.

I need AUX1 and AUX2 to be used for choose between white or red swiss lights OR light on/off the main light depending of the drive on/off of the lok.

So, the alternatives are:

1.- Forget about the independent main light to be on when the lok starts driving or off when it is stopped, and have it switched on always when the head lights are on, maybe more brilliant, but jointly with the lower lights.

2.- Forget about the red rear swiss light and use only the white rear swiss light, connected to the head lower lights, this way I can switch on/off the main light using the programming facility of the V4 decoder when the lok starts driving.

3.- Connect the rear swiss lights (red/white) with the ESU V4 programming of the main light. This way the only problem is that the rear swiss light only switches on when the lok is driving.

I would like to get suggestions, but I understand this has to be a different thread with a different name, so I will open a new one and use this post as first one of it.

Kind regards.

Javier
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by fje
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 10 February 2017 11:22:00(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Hi Javier,

I look forward to reading about how you carry out this conversion.

I have a 3638 which I converted simply with a 60760 decoder kit, but I could change the decoder in the future for a better one with more functions so I want to see how you go about this.

A word of warning; the 33xx locos usually use low voltage lamps (3V) so you will need to change them to the high voltage versions needed for digital operation.

By the way you may want to edit your title to show Ae 6/6 instead of Ae 6/7, unless you have added another axle to the loco? BigGrin

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline fje  
#3 Posted : 10 February 2017 12:34:33(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Hi, Ray.... of course it is a 6/6... it is not an additional "virtual driving" axle, it is much more simple, it is a too fat finger... LOL . Thanks for bringing it to me, I already corrected it.

And, regarding the lamps warning, there is one thing that I will do for sure in any case ... change the lamps for leds.... This will permit me to either use red/White swiss lights or have the main light switched on independent of the other ones.

Regards.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by fje
Offline jvuye  
#4 Posted : 10 February 2017 15:08:06(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: fje Go to Quoted Post
This is somehow a continuation of another thread that was mainly dedicated on how to open and dismount the ref. lok.:

https://www.marklin-user...unt-the-cabin#post539772

As I told there I feel that the work to do from now on had to be in a new thread, more dedicated to the digitalization of the lok and the swiss lights implementation. So, I repeat here the last post I put in the ref. thread:

*******

Just starting the digitalization plan of work I discovered one problem that forces me to make a decisión between different alternatives:

Problem: The decoder I have and plan to use (ESU kit 64632) only have 4 functions: head and rear lights, AUX1 and AUX2.

I need AUX1 and AUX2 to be used for choose between white or red swiss lights OR light on/off the main light depending of the drive on/off of the lok.

So, the alternatives are:

1.- Forget about the independent main light to be on when the lok starts driving or off when it is stopped, and have it switched on always when the head lights are on, maybe more brilliant, but jointly with the lower lights.

2.- Forget about the red rear swiss light and use only the white rear swiss light, connected to the head lower lights, this way I can switch on/off the main light using the programming facility of the V4 decoder when the lok starts driving.

3.- Connect the rear swiss lights (red/white) with the ESU V4 programming of the main light. This way the only problem is that the rear swiss light only switches on when the lok is driving.

I would like to get suggestions, but I understand this has to be a different thread with a different name, so I will open a new one and use this post as first one of it.

Kind regards.

Javier


Two quick questions, and a couple of suggestions. (Apologies if you knew this already!Wink )

1°) Do you own (or have acces to) an ESU Lokprogrammer? (the SW is free, only need to purchase the H/W, about 100€ only)
It would allow a much simpler and intuitive programming of the complex light scheme.

2°) Have you considered using the ESU extension board that enables Aux 3 and Aux4 ? ( ESU 21 pin MTC board )
You could easily dispense of the original diode board inside the loco.

One thing to remember, you can also have logical combinations of function input to determine the output configuration, all this being very simple with the Lokprogrammer

And since you plan on doing essentially a sophisticated light scheme, you can configure individual outputs to look quite realistic . I personally like the light "dimming on/ dimming out" option where you see the light coming on progressively instead of a "flashing on".
You can also for example implement the Swiss "emergency blinking" of all 3 headlights.

You can also fine tune the light intensity to obtain a very realistic effect.

I know the ESU manuals are pretty "dense" Wink , but definitely worth reading . They have the merit to be well detailed...(what cannot be said for all decoder manufacturers)

Hope this helps

Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline fje  
#5 Posted : 10 February 2017 15:52:16(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Hi, Jacques, thanks for your post, very helpful.

The answer to your first question is yes.... I don't have the lokprogrammer H/W but I do have the software and, in fact, I used it following the suggestion of another colleague for implementing correctly the main upper light function I explained.

The second point I hadn't thougth about it ..... yet Confused ..... because what I already own is a couple of 64632 kits (one for the 3338, the other one for a 3356 that is waiting for similar work). I understand that I would have to change the 64610 decoder included in the kit for a 54614 (I really don't need the MFx/M4 of the 64614) plus the ref 21pinMTC adapter, is it?

So, I have to talk with my usual dealer and ask him if he is ready to change the two 64610 decoder plus the 51950 I already bought from him for the combination of 54614 and the 21MTC board.

But, yes, it is a very good ideaThumpUp , this way I could still use the AUX1/2 for the main lights and AUX3/4 for red/White swiss lightsBigGrin ....

I will explore it and post it with how it is going on.

Merci encore, thanks again, Jacques.

Javier
Offline fje  
#6 Posted : 12 February 2017 09:39:37(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Unfortunately, Murphy came, and this work will have to wait for a while.

My usual seller is out of stock of both 21 pin decoder and 21 pin MTC adapter board for doing the change I planned to do. So, I will have to wait for a time till he receive them again.

As son as I will have them and I will be able to do the work, I will resue this post. In the mean time I already re-designed the PCB for the red/white swiss lights and confirm there is space enough to put it in the same place one of the current PCBs (the one with several diodes) is.

Will come back again in some time.

Regards.

Javier
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by fje
Offline fje  
#7 Posted : 14 February 2017 18:22:18(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Question.....

As I told in my previous post it seems that if I have to wait for the ESU 21 pins decoders, I will have to wait for some time. In the meantime, I found that the new Märklin decoder 60942 mLD seems to have AUXx outputs enough for what I am looking for... EXCEPT that I am not sure its mapping includes one thing I would like to have:

For the swiss lights, I have no problema, as the AUX3/4 gives me the possibility of the red/white rear swiss light I want to implement and that lights I understand should be lighted on either the lok is driving or stopped.

BUT for the main light I have a problem, I would like to have it switched on ONLY when the lok is driving, as the ESU decoder allows me to program/map. Looking at the Märklin manual for the mLD decoder, I find that I could map the AUX1/2 for the main focus to be switched on depending of the direction of the lok, but.... here comes my question:

Is there any mapping possibility in the Märklin decoder to program that output to be switched on ONLY when the lok is driving ? I cannot find that possibility in the decoder manual, but maybe someone found it....

Any answer would be very well... welcomed.

Thanks so much

Regards.

Javier
Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 15 February 2017 07:51:20(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
For an Ae 6/6, the lights should be independent of the motors, meaning that all lighting options are available when the locomotive is stationary. The lights do not just go on when the locomotive is moving. The lighting settings are selected by the train driver. An Ae 6/6 would have the three lights on at the front and a single white at the bottom right (when looking at the lok) from the rear, which the driver would select prior to moving. This means that a locomotive at the head of a train in a station would have these lights illuminated.
If we use Zurich HB as an example, a train would be pulled in by a locomotive at the front. That lok would reach the head of the track and stop. The staff would detach the lok from the consist and the driver would then switch the lights to the stopped position and usually lower the active pantograph. A second lok, often approach the train from the rear, the staff would couple the new lok to the consist, the driver would raise the appropriate pantograph and switch the lights in preparation for departure.

The only exception to this rule would be when two locomotives are operated in tandem and the first one would have three white headlights and the second would have only the single taillight at the rear.

I would suggest that you set the lighting functions as follows:

1st function: Lights: On/Off
2nd function: Front Lights on/off
3rd function: Rear Lights on/off
4th function: Rear Light white/red
5th function: All Lights on (white)
6th function: All Lights red (emergency)

It all depends how many LEDs you want to install and how many functions you want to use for lighting.
You may find it more interesting to add features like cabin lights or engine compartment lights or something like Noch's pantograph mounted blinking LED (blue sparks).

Regards

Mike C

Offline fje  
#9 Posted : 15 February 2017 08:30:09(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Hello, Mike, thanks for your answer and explanation.

You are right in the sense of the lok having the three head lights switched on even when in stationary in the station. In general terms it is that way.

But what I would like to simulate is that when the lok starts driving, the main upper light changes from a "low brilliant light" to a "high brilliant light", this is the reason I try to have it switched off in stationary mode and to switch it on as soon as the lok gets the order to start driving.

Might be I could do it also using AUX1/2 with a lower value resistor (and a couple of diodes to avoid reverse current to the decoder) connected to the upper light at the same time as F0 is connected, but even in that case I would need some control or program/map depending of the lok stopped or driving.

My question is still there, does the Marklin 60942 have such program/mapping function for the driving/stationary dependency as the ESU lokpilot V4 has?

Thanks again

Regards
Offline ktsolias  
#10 Posted : 15 February 2017 23:37:14(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Athens
The links below are all the information's that Märklin gives for the CV's and the decoders programming.

Unfortunately are in German. If you know German will help you.
I haven't find English version so far...

http://www.maerklin.de/f...CV-Liste_FX__28MM_29.pdf
http://www.maerklin.de/f...mLD-mSD_CV-Liste_DCC.pdf
http://www.maerklin.de/d...formationen/dcc-rechner/
http://www.maerklin.de/f...Zusatzanleitung_0716.pdf

Regards

Costas
Offline mike c  
#11 Posted : 16 February 2017 02:38:44(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: fje Go to Quoted Post
Hello, Mike, thanks for your answer and explanation.

You are right in the sense of the lok having the three head lights switched on even when in stationary in the station. In general terms it is that way.

But what I would like to simulate is that when the lok starts driving, the main upper light changes from a "low brilliant light" to a "high brilliant light", this is the reason I try to have it switched off in stationary mode and to switch it on as soon as the lok gets the order to start driving.


I have spent a bit of time watching trains at Zuerich HB, Arth Goldau and other locations and I cannot say I have any clue of what you are referring to.
Do you have a video of this light change that you can provide a link to?

There are a number of videos of Ae 6/6 on YouTube by members like 003Sokrates and Lorirocks777 to name a few.

Are you referring to the driver switching from low to high beam?

Regards

Mike C
Offline fje  
#12 Posted : 16 February 2017 08:22:11(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fje Go to Quoted Post
Hello, Mike, thanks for your answer and explanation.

You are right in the sense of the lok having the three head lights switched on even when in stationary in the station. In general terms it is that way.

But what I would like to simulate is that when the lok starts driving, the main upper light changes from a "low brilliant light" to a "high brilliant light", this is the reason I try to have it switched off in stationary mode and to switch it on as soon as the lok gets the order to start driving.


I have spent a bit of time watching trains at Zuerich HB, Arth Goldau and other locations and I cannot say I have any clue of what you are referring to.
Do you have a video of this light change that you can provide a link to?

There are a number of videos of Ae 6/6 on YouTube by members like 003Sokrates and Lorirocks777 to name a few.

Are you referring to the driver switching from low to high beam?

Regards

Mike C


Hi, Mike, YES, this what I am looking for. Either to have the main beam switched off and switch it on when the lok starts driving, or, more real I agree, to switch it from low to high beam when the lok starts driving.

Regards.
Offline fje  
#13 Posted : 16 February 2017 08:25:32(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Originally Posted by: ktsolias Go to Quoted Post
The links below are all the information's that Märklin gives for the CV's and the decoders programming.

Unfortunately are in German. If you know German will help you.
I haven't find English version so far...

http://www.maerklin.de/f...CV-Liste_FX__28MM_29.pdf
http://www.maerklin.de/f...mLD-mSD_CV-Liste_DCC.pdf
http://www.maerklin.de/d...formationen/dcc-rechner/
http://www.maerklin.de/f...Zusatzanleitung_0716.pdf

Regards

Costas


Hi Costas, thanks for the links.

I feel I already have them, even I feel I have found somewhere a versión in German and english (I don't remember where). Using Google translator (my German is almost null) I feel I was able to understand what they explain on them.

AND the mapping functions is very good, BUT there is one thing missing that the ESU lokpilot V4 does have: the condition of the lok to be driving. At least I was not able to find it. Anyway, I will try to have an additional look and Reading to them later today.

Regards.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by fje
Offline Unholz  
#14 Posted : 16 February 2017 11:13:39(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: fje Go to Quoted Post
(...) or, more real I agree, to switch it from low to high beam when the lok starts driving.


Ehmm... - sorry for butting in, but are you sure that the (prototype) Ae 6/6 locos were ever equipped with high beam lights? Confused Blink

And although I am not an engine driver, I doubt that high beam lights are used when the loco starts driving (in a station). Their use is normally restricted to dark and/or dangerous sections on the main lines between stops.
Offline fje  
#15 Posted : 16 February 2017 15:01:11(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fje Go to Quoted Post
(...) or, more real I agree, to switch it from low to high beam when the lok starts driving.


Ehmm... - sorry for butting in, but are you sure that the (prototype) Ae 6/6 locos were ever equipped with high beam lights? Confused Blink

And although I am not an engine driver, I doubt that high beam lights are used when the loco starts driving (in a station). Their use is normally restricted to dark and/or dangerous sections on the main lines between stops.


Well, being in Switzerland, you could be the one with more knowledge to tell us about it, or find it for us.... As far as I know, all the Ae 6/6 I have ever seen had the high beam light, but I could be worng.

On the other side, all the loks I saw switch on the high beam as son as they leave the station and put it in low beam as soon as the cross with other train or enter in one station.... But, again, I can be wrong.

Regards
Offline Unholz  
#16 Posted : 16 February 2017 15:58:11(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
Is it perhaps a language/translation problem? In my understanding, the term "high beam" stands for something similar to (strong) "floodlight" or "searchlight". Is this actually what you are referring to? If yes, then the Ae 6/6 only have simple "headlights".
Offline RayF  
#17 Posted : 16 February 2017 16:20:07(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Are we talking about the middle headlight of the three on the front of the locomotive? As far as I know this is just another headlight the same as the other two, and doesn't function as a "high beam" light.

Maybe I've got this wrong?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline fje  
#18 Posted : 16 February 2017 16:22:32(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Is it perhaps a language/translation problem? In my understanding, the term "high beam" stands for something similar to (strong) "floodlight" or "searchlight". Is this actually what you are referring to? If yes, then the Ae 6/6 only have simple "headlights".


Hello, I feel we are talking of the same thing I believe. I am talking about something similar to the "short" and "long" lights the cars have....

Really the Ae6/6 didn't ever have a "long" beam when it drives?

Really astonishing me... It would be the first "moderm" lok with three head beams that doesn't have a "high intensity/luminosity", "long distance" beam in the beam in the high possition of the triangle.

Kind regards

Javier
Offline RayF  
#19 Posted : 16 February 2017 16:27:02(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Well, the Ae6/6 is far from modern, having been introduced to service in the 1950s. Perhaps this is the cause of your misunderstanding?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline fje  
#20 Posted : 16 February 2017 16:39:54(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Hello, I was thinking that, even having been introduced in the 50s, as it was working many years later on, it could have been modified, "modernized" and have changed the high beam to have a "long distance light".

But this information simplifies much my work, as I can now connect all the three head lights to the F0 and use the AUX1/2 for the red/white rear swiss light, not having to wait for the ESU lokpilot 21 pins I needed for the AUX 3/4.

And, this said, I understand it is also applicable to the BE 6/8 traditional krokodile, much older than the 6/6, isn't it?

Thanks and kind regards

Javier
Offline Robert Davies  
#21 Posted : 16 February 2017 18:16:14(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
I have a nice clip of an Ae6/6 (11453) running in to Killwangen-Spreitenbach station (near Zurich) in 2009. You see the engine at some distance away and it runs towards the camera almost head-on and there is absolutely no difference in the intensity of the three front lights.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
Offline fje  
#22 Posted : 16 February 2017 18:42:52(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
I have a nice clip of an Ae6/6 (11453) running in to Killwangen-Spreitenbach station (near Zurich) in 2009. You see the engine at some distance away and it runs towards the camera almost head-on and there is absolutely no difference in the intensity of the three front lights.


Hi, Robert, thanks for confirming it. I wil do the way all of you recomend in the last posts.

Kind regards

Javier
Offline mike c  
#23 Posted : 16 February 2017 20:05:45(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
I think that this misunderstanding is based on the fact that the headlights of Swiss locomotives (like most others) use focused beams and as the locomotive moves, the beam from the headlight changes position and thus appears to be brighter depending on the angle of the viewer or camera lens.

Regards

Mike C
Offline fje  
#24 Posted : 16 February 2017 20:16:05(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
You may be right, Mike, but I feel that "not only, not only". If you look at any "modern" locomotive (and I don't know how to define "modern"), you will see that the main (upper) beam changes as soon as it goes to the "open railway" at comes back to a low bright beam when it enters a station, or crosses with another train it its journey...

Regards.

Javier
Offline Robert Davies  
#25 Posted : 16 February 2017 21:29:09(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: fje Go to Quoted Post
You may be right, Mike, but I feel that "not only, not only". If you look at any "modern" locomotive (and I don't know how to define "modern"), you will see that the main (upper) beam changes as soon as it goes to the "open railway" at comes back to a low bright beam when it enters a station, or crosses with another train it its journey...

Regards.

Javier

I really don't think you can generalise like that. It certainly does not work like that in the UK and I think that the behaviour of headlights/marker lights was (until cross-border standardisation came into effect) dictated by local custom. (I can think of no other country than Switzerland that uses one white light on the back of a loco hauling a train, for example.)

In the US, steam engines had very powerful headlights and the code of usage (dim/bright/off/red/green) was an important part of the operating 'bible'. On the other hand, British steam locos only carried dim oil lamps whose sole purpose was to identify the 'class' of the train and served no purpose at all so far as forward illumination was concerned. Both of these traditions passed directly to diesel and electric locos and it is only relatively recently that BR trains have been built with headlights from new.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Robert Davies
Offline fje  
#26 Posted : 16 February 2017 22:10:28(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
I agree, Robert. Maybe I am influenced for the ones I have seen (mostly in Spain) and I didn't take into consideration to ask for further information about local uses and customs.

Regards
Offline fje  
#27 Posted : 17 February 2017 15:36:07(UTC)
fje

Spain   
Joined: 14/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: Madrid
Finally, I will take the easiest way.

1.- The light change I was planning for the main beam doesn't have sense as I have been told in the last posts.
2.- If I maintain my purpose of installing the red/white swiss light, it implies to change the bulbs for leds. In this case, the logic way is to take off the difusser and put led in the three beams.
3.- But the upper beam is not so easy to change, the cabin has a middle channel for the difusser that I feel is too thin for the led cables and the led itself.

So, finally what I will do is to digitalize the locomotive probably with a Märklin 60760 kit, change the bulbs to the 610080 ones and change the 62255 soldering for the digital implementation.

And I will wait for a future lok for experimenting with a high/low intensity beam....

End of this history.

Thanks for all the help I got from all of you.

Best regards.

Javier
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.901 seconds.