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Offline baggio  
#1 Posted : 28 September 2016 00:28:13(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hello, Everyone:

Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but judging by the problems people are having with the double switch turnout, as discussed in the thread:

C track double switch problems

I am asking myself whether I should stay away from digital turnouts altogether.

The reason I would like to use them is that I have made some changes to my simple layout and right now I am able to have trains run and turn direction around and park them using eight turnouts. I would like to be able to change the direction of some of the turnouts without having to physically get up, lien over and pull the lever. (Didn't I tell you? I am lazy.)

Problem is, these turnouts are expensive and the thought of buying even only four and then STILL having to do it manually..... Cursing

I would need led lights to give me visual feedback as to where the switch is positioned and that, too, seems to be a problem.

Question: am I being overly negative or are digital turnout really a bad idea, at least until Marklin gets it right?
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Offline PMPeter  
#2 Posted : 28 September 2016 03:59:44(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Another reason why K track is better. Laugh With K track, except for the 3 way turnout, the detachable solenoids can be easily removed/repaired/replaced without ripping the track apart.

This turnout problem with the micro-switches has existed for a long time and every new version doesn't seem to fix the problem. So to answer your question I would not install the solenoid mechanisms for the C track turnouts without shorting out the micro-switches if you have a permanent layout with digital control. If your track is not ballasted down and you don't mind ripping it apart if the switches fail and do the repair as required then I wouldn't wait.

It really depends on your layout type and operation, but holding off until a proven fix is made does not seem to be an effective option.

Cheers
Peter

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Offline ShannonN  
#3 Posted : 28 September 2016 06:11:45(UTC)
ShannonN

Australia   
Joined: 14/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 492
Location: Maryborough, Qld
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Another reason why K track is better. Laugh With K track, except for the 3 way turnout, the detachable solenoids can be easily removed/repaired/replaced without ripping the track apart. This turnout problem with the micro-switches has existed for a long time and every new version doesn't seem to fix the problem.
Cheers
Peter


Hi Silvano and Peter
Having C Track - This is a question I had and follow this thread with interest, so thanks for asking the question Silvano and Peter for your answer, however @ Peter, given your response (cut down above) you give the impression you kind of expect to have to remove replace solenoids even on K Track regularly, not just as a matter of Preventative Maintenance but more as a necessity due to faults rather than wear & tear.

Are all turnouts so poorly designed & constructed across the MRR world or is this just a Marklin only problem?

Blessings Shanny


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Offline clapcott  
#4 Posted : 28 September 2016 06:25:24(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Why have you used the word "Digital" ?
The turnout solenoid mechanism is electromechanical.

While it is possible he CD pulse supplied by an accessory decoder may have a bit more initial power than a finger on a 7072, the issue with the turnouts micro-switch is not really a "digital" one
Peter
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 28 September 2016 07:54:43(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
[...] the issue with the turnouts micro-switch is not really a "digital" one
Right. But it's a binary problem: they work or they don't work.

One can easily bridge the cut-off switches for higher reliability.
OTOH with unmodified cut-off switches you can easily attach LEDs that show the position of the switches.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline RayF  
#6 Posted : 28 September 2016 08:32:10(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Silvano, if your layout is not permanent I would say go ahead and fit the turnout motors. They don't all fail, and if they do and you can turn the piece of track over you can easily replace them. If you send a faulty one back to Marklin they will replace it free of charge.

I would say that of the 14 turnouts on my layout only 2 or 3 give problems, and they have not actually failed completely as I can get them to work again by spraying them with WD40.

You say that the turnouts are expensive, but it's not the turnout that would need replacing, just the turnout motor, and they cost just 19 euro each. If you have bought the digital decoder as well that would not need to be replaced.

Just for clarification, there is no such thing as a "digital turnout".
- All turnouts are delivered with just the manual switch (except for the double slip which is a special case).
- You can then make them work remotely with an electromechanical turnout motor (the problem part) and these can be controlled with just a simple control box.
- If you wish to control these with your MS2 or other digital controller you then need a decoder, which can be the one that fits under the track bed or a separate box that can control up to four turnouts.

I hope this helps to calm your fears. I would not want anyone to be put off from adding remote control to their layout either digitally or manually just because of a misconception.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Timnomads  
#7 Posted : 28 September 2016 11:02:01(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Hi

In general I have found no problems with the regular points (i believe the moters were revamped last year) and I have had no problems with these (touch wood) in the last year. If your layout has points that are not easy to reach it is a good solution. As mentioned before, there is a Marklin guarantee, although it takes a minimum of 4 weeks to get anything back!

I went for all digital as it allows me to sit and control everything rather than having to continually get up to change points. My layout is in the loft with limited headroom thus a great potential to get head aches Crying , its better not to get up too much.

Tim
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Offline Crazy Harry  
#8 Posted : 29 September 2016 03:07:46(UTC)
Crazy Harry

Canada   
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 475
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Silvano,

I think you have been scared off by some of the negative comments on the forum. There are also several posts where the user said they have not had a problem. Personally, I would go for the motorized and digitized turnouts since I'm a big fan of the remote control (and somewhat lazy).

The turnout laterns (another Marklin option) will give you position feedback, although this is at the switch.

Go for the remote control! If you have a problem with a turnout someone will help you - even if that means doing the repair for you.

Cheers,

Harold.
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Offline baggio  
#9 Posted : 29 September 2016 03:35:49(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Just for clarification, there is no such thing as a "digital turnout".
- All turnouts are delivered with just the manual switch (except for the double slip which is a special case).
- You can then make them work remotely with an electromechanical turnout motor (the problem part) and these can be controlled with just a simple control box.
- If you wish to control these with your MS2 or other digital controller you then need a decoder, which can be the one that fits under the track bed or a separate box that can control up to four turnouts.


Thank you, Ray, for your involved and clear explanation and everyone else who provided very helpful feedback. MUCH appreciated.

I think the simplest way for me now is to buy a set of two turnouts to begin with, each with the "electromechanical turnout motor" (that is a mouthful! BigGrin ) and a control box so I can change the direction of the train without having to get up. ThumpUp

Given that I really like the idea of knowing which way the train will go just by looking at the turnouts from where I am sitting, I will need an LED light as well on each.

I have done a bit of remote control wiring with the (2 rail analogue) control box I got from Mike here at the Marklin store and a lot of help from
Frank Kowal ThumpUp and that made it a lot more fun. I expect this will be no different. If I have problems, I will see what can be done. Mike here at the Marklin shop will know what to do. Of course, I will also bother you guys. Woot

I have found that by not relying just on an oval, but making the train run INSIDE the oval and change direction, it really adds to the fun. Speed is becoming a bit less important when I do this. Scared

Thanks again.
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Offline Crazy Harry  
#10 Posted : 29 September 2016 04:00:20(UTC)
Crazy Harry

Canada   
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 475
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post


Given that I really like the idea of knowing which way the train will go just by looking at the turnouts from where I am sitting, I will need an LED light as well on each.



Silvano,

You need to buy Marklin 74470 - Turnout lantern kit, this lantern has a built in LED and the piece on top turns to show how the switch is set. The straight up and down bar indicates straight through, the diagonal slash (from front approach, from the rear it is a circle) indicates turn. One kit includes two lanterns (from the description).

Harold.
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Offline ixldoc  
#11 Posted : 29 September 2016 07:37:30(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Brisbane,Australia
I would like to ask the forum about the failure of the point motors since it is such a hot topic.

Has anyone had a C track turnout motor burn out? My observation with a friend's layout is that the point will throw but then not return. i.e the oxidation on the contacts has prevented an electrical connection which is needed for the return winding to be effective. This is why the simple fix of shorting the contacts is effective. ( This shorts the make contact). I have not seen a motor burn out which would imply the break contacts on the micro always works. Any comment ?

I have twenty six C track points with motors and I switch them with half wave AC using simple change over switches. The switch lever indicates which way the point is set or if a DPDT switch is used then LEDs can be wired to indicate the position if required. In five years I have never had a motor fail. I know the microswitch works to interrupt power because if I manually try to change the switch back, it buzzes , then settles when I let go.

I agree with the comment made that the problem seems to be with the digital pulse causing the oxidation and that analogue (AC) power seems to be reliable.

On a lighter note, a manual point could be called digital if you think about it, just as a piano could be a digital instrument.Laugh

Cheers
Howard.









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Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 29 September 2016 22:30:17(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post

I think the simplest way for me now is to buy a set of two turnouts to begin with, each with the "electro-mechanical turnout motor" and a control box so I can change the direction of the train without having to get up.

Given that I really like the idea of knowing which way the train will go just by looking at the turnouts from where I am sitting, I will need an LED light as well on each.


Just a data point - here is what I did.
I purchased a C-Track 29000 starter digital starter and an expansion set that gave me an oval and 2 turnouts. Using them manually was fun but I knew I wasn't going to be manual on my layout.

I then ordered for the 2 turnouts: two turnout motors (electro-mechanical) to be installed in the C-Track turnouts.
I also ordered 2 c-track turnout decoders (to install under the turnouts as well) and 1 (it comes as a pair of two units) kit to fit lanterns.

I ended up with two digitally controlled turnouts with turnout lanterns.

The lanterns rotate with the changing of the electro-mechanical switch - so they show the position of the turnout. They don't indicate if the electro-mechanical state switching succeeded in switching fully all the way or if it ended up just short, however.

That gets me the ability to get started and testing with a basic oval layout with a siding run, or other configurations.

So when you order the turnouts, you may also want to order the switch(motor), decoder and lantern kits at the same time and see if thats enough.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Martin T  
#13 Posted : 29 September 2016 22:43:01(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 872
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Try this maybe?

Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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Offline Danlake  
#14 Posted : 30 September 2016 02:57:38(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi all,

I have shorted all my c-track turnouts and my advise (if you are building a permanent layout) is to modify them sooner rather than later as you will eventually have faults.

I have never had any burned out solenoids regardless of being activated by manual push buttons or via decoders.

In stumi forum there is a long thread about the issues including discussion on AC or DC power makes any difference.

I recently did modify a batch of the newer version turnout mechanism (released in 2016). After shorting them none of them would work! I then completely removed the micro switch and they worked... so always test them after modification before putting back together.

All though Marklin has not publicly declared there is an issue they haver never been shy confirming there is indeed an issue. They do have a policy in place so you can return faulty once.

I agree with other users. Majority of Marklin sale is digital so the design should of course cater for that group and not getting a bad compromise as we got now. Experienced analogue users knows how to avoid burning out solenoids and doubt there is many analogue kids carpet bahns where there could be a potential risk.

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline Minok  
#15 Posted : 30 September 2016 20:44:02(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

I recently did modify a batch of the newer version turnout mechanism (released in 2016). After shorting them none of them would work! I then completely removed the micro switch and they worked... so always test them after modification before putting back together.


This is interesting news. Were your new ones 74491 (2012-) while your older ones were 74490 (last made 2011)?
So that suggests there is a change in the circuitry to the system for the 2016 switches, where a short no longer is the right solution, but an open circuit is.
Did you test the switches once removed - have they changed? In that are they now the opposite type of the old ( normally open NO to normally closed NC)?

If Märklin redesigned the cut-off circuit so that the opposite switch is now employed, I wonder if that oxidation buildup under the lower power is still a problem, or just pushes the time to get a failure out further in time of usage.

Shorting the old switches (to prevent their cut-off feature) would imply the switches were normally closed (so shorting always keeps them 'closed') and thus they never signal to power off the coil. Travel of the coil switch would 'open' the switch at the extent of travel, cutting the power to the coil. Once oxides built up enough on the switch contacts they would no longer attain an electrical closed state and would thus always prevent the power to the coil.

If what you found is indeed the new 2016 design, that now one needs an 'normally open' switch - where removing the switch ensures it stays open all the time - then the coil switch movement would 'close' the switch at the end of travel, and that would disconnect power from the coil. So the closing of the switch shuts off power, and thus shorting that style would disable the function of the coils. In this design the same build up of oxide would lead to the switch, when it fails, to no longer electrically close (it would effectively fail open). In that failure state, you would get the same effect as if you had removed the switches.

So it seems, if there has been a redesign of the coil cutoff switches in the Märklin rail switches from Normally Closed (NC), to Normally Open (NO) - the the failure over time from oxide build up would cause it to fail in a way that didn't prevent it working in digital systems (as it would fail as if you had removed the switches), where-as the analog usage (from Martin's video) would still burn off the oxide from the greater level of arcing, and should not fail either.

Seems to me, if the design change your indicated has happened, then the newer switches no longer need to be modified as they will fail safe. But I'd have expected Märklin to change the part numbers for this change.

Can someone confirm?

---

Ok, I did some more research (I really should work through some research BEFORE posting, my bad). and found a Modelbahn blog entry related to the C-Track switches and the update.
http://mobatechnikblog.b...-weichenantrieb-von.html


So the nature of the switches hadn't changed but the usage of other electrical components and the design had - the result of which is, according to the blog article, that there would no longer be enough voltage to produce any amount of arcing at all on the switch contacts. So this should then prevent any accumulation of oxides formed by arcing (that might be burned off by substantial AC switching arcing, but not burned off by lessor digital switching arcing).

So the change doesn't make the track switch fail-safe, it just makes it less arcing and thus less oxidation build up.

From the blog, the two circuit diagrams:

Old C-Track 74491 circuit (pre 2015?)
old-74491.PNG
When you short circuit the switch, you short circuit the varistor, so the ability to power the coil is always there - power on the input powers the coil.

New C-Track 74491 circuit (modified early 2015?)
new-74491.PNG
Here, shorting the switch takes the capacitor out of the loop and leaves you with the varistor parallel to the coil(inductor) (unlike the old circuit where you'd have the full control voltage applied to the coil only); so I'm guessing something about the supplied voltage on the switch inputs (the voltage of which is highly dependant on what/how that switch input signal is provided ) results in a switch that stalls out in some un-switchable state.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Danlake  
#16 Posted : 30 September 2016 22:22:29(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi Minok,

I only modified 74491.

In April 2016 I received 5 new pcs from Lokshop of the new version.

Working fine initially, then I did the modification. I have always removed the little varistor between the 2 contacts to ensure I got ample space for soldering a little piece of bare wire between the contacts. After modification none of the 5 pcs would work. In desperation I then tried to cut off the little tong on the micro switch and then ii worked again...

I am not familiar with the actual circuit of the mechanisme, but I have done more then 30 modifications without any failures. So yes I do think something have changed with the new version, but maybe iam the only one who decided to modified them not trusting the issue have actually been fixedBlink

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline Minok  
#17 Posted : 30 September 2016 23:20:13(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Hmmm.. so if you were and continued to remove the varistor (and what you removed from the new version wasn't the capacitor that replaced the veristor - if the circuit diagram from the blog image I posted is to be trusted) - then something odd is going on.

So for the time being I'll leave my two motors unmodified.. and maybe crack them open when I get to actually building some layout late this year, just to see which circuit I've got inside them.

The German blogger had attempted to run an experiment where he set up a test rig to run an unmodified and and his modified (in a way that is similar to what Märklin now has) switches through cycles, monitor the cut-off switch state and find out when one would fail. Unfortunately, he got to 140,000 switching and the mechanical point components broke/wore out before the electrical switch driving them did. His conclusion is that the extreme durability of the electrical switches in his experiment may well be due to the way the power was being applied to cycle the switches, and that this differs in some significant way form how model train systems power the electrical switches. So no meaningful result.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline dickinsonj  
#18 Posted : 01 October 2016 02:12:42(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
You can disable the limit switches or not, it is your choice. If it will be difficult to replace a turnout in your layout I would disable them prior to installation.

But also keep in mind that I have been using the same switch motors for 20 years and I have yet to have a single one fail. So just jumping straight to the conclusion that you should not use them at all seems a bit extreme to me.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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