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Offline Janne75  
#1 Posted : 30 November 2014 10:42:23(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Hi all Märklin 1 gauge gurus Cool ,

I bought this Märklin 5713 DB BR 55 3964 as second hand from a big German eBay seller. It was advertised to be digital and decoder address is 30. However when I got it I tested it with my MS2 controller and it just started to run uncontrollable like an analog locomotive would. So I thought it is analog then and contacted the seller. He gave me some money back and I put this loco on the shelf in my train room. Today I decided to test this loco with analog transformer. It runs with it now controllable = speed can be adjusted. But when I tried to change the direction it only raises it´s speed as the voltage rises when giving direction change "command" and it will run only forward. I took the body off and was going to see a normal reversing unit like there is in H0 locos also as this should have one of those if it was analog. Normally you can just adjust the spring tension from reversing unit if you have similar problems and direction change works again.

I was very supraised when I opened this one. It has no normal reversing unit and it has some kind of electronics there instead. Also a 14-pin chip which can be taken off. Is this a digital decoder or what it is? If it is what is the manufacturer? When the loco runs without the body this "decoder" has a very small red light on left-hand side right bottom corner.

Here some photos if it helps:


Without the "decoder" in place:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage


Other side:

UserPostedImage


"Decoder":

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage


Decoder attached:

UserPostedImage


Thank you very much in advance for all help with this "mystery" loco Cool .


Cheers,
Janne

Edited by user 01 December 2014 16:56:48(UTC)  | Reason: This loco was digital, but now the decoder is dead!

Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 30 November 2014 11:18:24(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,745
Location: New Zealand
The manual for 5713 suggests that the loco is analog. It seems to have an electronic reversing unit.

Manual for 5713 is attached.
File Attachment(s):
5713_5714_Dampflok_BR_55_lo.pdf (5,526kb) downloaded 124 time(s).
Offline Janne75  
#3 Posted : 30 November 2014 11:55:59(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Hi,

Yes I know that originally 5713 is analog. But this one was sold as digital and digital address should be 30. I have an exploded view of this loco downloaded and in that it looked like normal mechanical reversing unit like in H0 scale. Why there is then that 14-pin removable "decoder" if this is electronic reversing unit? I have some electronic reversing units in my H0 locos and they look completely different than this one. Thank you for the manual ThumpUp .

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Purellum  
#4 Posted : 30 November 2014 12:38:02(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I have the exact same loco ( 5713 ), and have taken it apart to find a solution on how to make it digital.

( I have found the solution; but not yet had the time to make a proper description. )

First of all, this loco was originally sold as a DC loc.

Originally it has a mechanical reversing unit, and a PCB which controls the voltage for lamps, so that the lamps will light up fully already at low speed, and not blow at full speed. ( A voltage regulator. )

Why it has the mechanical reversing unit when sold as DC, I don't know; but it works as an AC loco. ( I've tested on AC, not on DC yet. )

Janne's loco has definitely been modified, the front lanterns looks like LEDs and the decoder was not originally in the loc.

Early Märklin digital 1-gauge locos were DCC, maybe this decoder is a DCC-decoder?

Per.

Cool



If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Janne75  
#5 Posted : 30 November 2014 15:30:10(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Thanks Per,

Should my MS2 controller be capable as standard to control DCC protocol locos or should I enable it first to be able to use it? I ask this as I thought if it is not capable to control DCC locos, maybe the decoder switches then automatically back to analog and runs uncontrollable on digital tracks. Confused

I tried to find 14-pin decoders from Google and eBay, but it seems like it's not common or at least I could not find anything similar looking. Just in case it has some decoder fault. I have not checked all the wires yet.

I really like this loco and it would be nice to get it working on digital layout. It has LED lights and also some light bulbs. Thanks for the info about mechanical reversing unit in original loco. I wait for your solution how to make this work with some other decoder or something else. Cool

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Purellum  
#6 Posted : 30 November 2014 15:33:35(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Ask someone else about the MS2 and DCC, since I don't have one. I do know however that it is capable of speaking DCC.

Can you find some kind of number on the decoder PCB ??

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Janne75  
#7 Posted : 30 November 2014 15:37:47(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Ask someone else about the MS2 and DCC, since I don't have one. I do know however that it is capable of speaking DCC.

Can you find some kind of number on the decoder PCB ??

Per.

Cool


Hi Per,

Please wait for some minutes as I have to open the loco body again. I will edit this posting soon... I will see all the numbers etc.

Edit: On the decoder base there is on the backside "PIC-L1-CON" and some wiring soldering point info like "R" for black wire = going inside the loco chassis, "B" for brown wire = ground, "M+" for green wire. On the other side only "TOP". On the decoder itself "PIC-L1" and "BOT". I took better photos of the decoder base and decoder and I will post them here soon. Cool

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Janne75  
#8 Posted : 30 November 2014 16:06:57(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Some new photos:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Janne75  
#9 Posted : 30 November 2014 17:23:57(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Hi again,

I measured all the wires and connectors. These are all ok. From the decoder one green wire goes to motor. Another green wire goes to a two wire connector attached to the tender. Also another wire goes from decoder to this same connector. Originally there is only a 5-pin connector between loco and tender. It's still there and I measured all wires/connectors.

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Purellum  
#10 Posted : 30 November 2014 19:16:42(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

A 2 wire connector going to the tender ?? It should not be there!

Maybe there's a switch mounted inside the tender, to switch between AC analog and digital?

Have you opened the tender? Do you know how?

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Janne75  
#11 Posted : 30 November 2014 19:26:59(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

A 2 wire connector going to the tender ?? It should not be there!

Maybe there's a switch mounted inside the tender, to switch between AC analog and digital?

Have you opened the tender? Do you know how?

Per.

Cool


Hi Per,

I will try to open it now. I will let you know if I have problems with it.

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Janne75  
#12 Posted : 30 November 2014 19:55:48(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Hi again,

I had opened this tender body once before so I knew I have to take the front wheels/axle away to get access to two screws. I opened it and can´t see a switch unfortunately, but instead some relays and those two thicker wires brown and red are soldered to some components which are soldered to those relays. Confused I´really don´t know what is the function of these, but like Per wrote these are not originally like this and that connector is added there afterwards. So all electric gurus can maybe solve this problem with my mystery loco 5713 RollEyes .

Photos of the tender to solve this problem:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage


Thank you very much in advance! ThumpUp

Cheers,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Janne75  
#13 Posted : 30 November 2014 20:30:51(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
I forgot to mention that there is one black wire cutted in the loco. You can see this in posting #8 in the last 4th photo in it. As I have not found any other wire anywhere where this should be going I assume it was cutted for a reason.
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Purellum  
#14 Posted : 30 November 2014 20:42:19(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

First of all, my memory failed; 5713 is an AC loco, I was thinking of 5743; and the one I have in front of me now is a 5714.

I am quite sure the two relays are put there to control the two sounds via the decoder instead of via the track magnets as originally intended.

My next suggestion is to unscrew the motor, only mechanically, and fix it in a position so that you don't make any short circuits or other damages.

Then you can power up the loco without the wheels turning, and try to get the decoder to react on DCC or Märklin Motorola.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline Ukko-Pekka  
#15 Posted : 30 November 2014 20:53:53(UTC)
Ukko-Pekka

Finland   
Joined: 16/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 43
Location: NORTHERN FINLAND
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
I forgot to mention that there is one black wire cutted in the loco. You can see this in posting #8 in the last 4th photo in it. As I have not found any other wire anywhere where this should be going I assume it was cutted for a reason.


Looks like black wire is not going anywhere on board, just jump to empty hole?
Offline Janne75  
#16 Posted : 01 December 2014 05:12:01(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: Ukko-Pekka Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
I forgot to mention that there is one black wire cutted in the loco. You can see this in posting #8 in the last 4th photo in it. As I have not found any other wire anywhere where this should be going I assume it was cutted for a reason.


Looks like black wire is not going anywhere on board, just jump to empty hole?


Hi Harri,

The black wire I'm writing about is cutted and it's only a few centimeters long. It comes from decoder baseboard PCB. Another black wire goes for a reason to a hole inside of the loco chassis. Do you mean by this that you think the cutted black wire should be a short wire and be connected to another soldering point on the decoder baseboard PCB = connecting only two soldering points there?

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Janne75  
#17 Posted : 01 December 2014 05:21:40(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

First of all, my memory failed; 5713 is an AC loco, I was thinking of 5743; and the one I have in front of me now is a 5714.

I am quite sure the two relays are put there to control the two sounds via the decoder instead of via the track magnets as originally intended.

My next suggestion is to unscrew the motor, only mechanically, and fix it in a position so that you don't make any short circuits or other damages.

Then you can power up the loco without the wheels turning, and try to get the decoder to react on DCC or Märklin Motorola.

Per.

Cool


Hi Per,

Yes this 5713 is AC version like can be seen from the sticker in the bottom of the loco having that ~ symbol. If those two relays are not there originally, then it must be those two sounds needing these relays for controlling them digitally with the decoder.

Could I just build a circle track and let the loco run forwards instead than unscrewing the motor when trying it to react on DCC or Märklin Motorola? Or is there some reason why the loco can't run at the same time? I don't fully understand why I should unscrew the motor.

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Ukko-Pekka  
#18 Posted : 01 December 2014 08:52:17(UTC)
Ukko-Pekka

Finland   
Joined: 16/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 43
Location: NORTHERN FINLAND
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ukko-Pekka Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Janne75 Go to Quoted Post
I forgot to mention that there is one black wire cutted in the loco. You can see this in posting #8 in the last 4th photo in it. As I have not found any other wire anywhere where this should be going I assume it was cutted for a reason.


Looks like black wire is not going anywhere on board, just jump to empty hole?


Hi Harri,

The black wire I'm writing about is cutted and it's only a few centimeters long. It comes from decoder baseboard PCB. Another black wire goes for a reason to a hole inside of the loco chassis. Do you mean by this that you think the cutted black wire should be a short wire and be connected to another soldering point on the decoder baseboard PCB = connecting only two soldering points there?

Janne


No, I meant in the picture wire seems to go to a point on board where is contact only to empty hole next to it, if I can see it right... If you follow the wire on board youll get what I mean ;)

Btw. Green and yellow wires seems to go from relays to magnets, if I can see it right.
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Offline Purellum  
#19 Posted : 01 December 2014 09:42:34(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

The black wire going to the hole is going to the springs picking up power from the wheels on the right side of the loco.

The relays are for sure for the sounds, since the PCB in the tender is only a sound module.

The risk of having a loco running full speed on a temporary circle is that it will tip over or de-rail, so you will have to concentrate your attention to the loco instead of the electrical system. It is also much easier to measure voltage etc. if the loco is stopped.

The motor can be lifted up by removing just 2 screws, I think it is the best way to do it.

P.S: You could try to short-circuit the contacts of the relays, this will give you the sounds. ( Yellow - yellow on one relay, yellow - green on the other. ) This is also easier to do when the loco isn't running full speed BigGrin

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Ukko-Pekka  
#20 Posted : 01 December 2014 13:49:34(UTC)
Ukko-Pekka

Finland   
Joined: 16/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 43
Location: NORTHERN FINLAND
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

The black wire going to the hole is going to the springs picking up power from the wheels on the right side of the loco.

The relays are for sure for the sounds, since the PCB in the tender is only a sound module.

The risk of having a loco running full speed on a temporary circle is that it will tip over or de-rail, so you will have to concentrate your attention to the loco instead of the electrical system. It is also much easier to measure voltage etc. if the loco is stopped.

The motor can be lifted up by removing just 2 screws, I think it is the best way to do it.

P.S: You could try to short-circuit the contacts of the relays, this will give you the sounds. ( Yellow - yellow on one relay, yellow - green on the other. ) This is also easier to do when the loco isn't running full speed BigGrin

Per.

Cool


The cut wire I was talking about is not going to a hole, it goes to board...

If I understood right, "magnets" on bottom of tender are for sounds, so relays are for them. It wont give you sounds when short-circuiting relays unless you activate "magnets"? Or are they some sort of reed-relays or something?
Offline Janne75  
#21 Posted : 01 December 2014 14:54:21(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Hi,

Thank you Per and Harri for all your help. I will first try to see where that cutted black wire could be going on decoder base PCB. I will also take the motor off as it seems like there are many benefits in doing like that... like no need to run and catch the loco around our livingroom when doing measurements with my multi meter LOL .

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Purellum  
#22 Posted : 01 December 2014 15:36:27(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Harri, the two relays are installed to be used instead of the magnet detectors / reed relays under the tender OR when I look closely on the pictures, maybe the relays are coupled in series with the ree relays, so that the relays AND the reed relays have to be activated to make a sound.

Janni, I think you should forget about the black wire going nowhere for now, it is probably just an extra input or output from the decoder.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Janne75  
#23 Posted : 01 December 2014 16:51:51(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Hi Per and Harri,

Yes, I really should not have done anything with that black short extra wire... but I connected it to one decoder PCB soldering point between two brown cables. The only one with soldering point without a hole in it. Then I put power on and felt smoke in my nose! Decoder is now kaput Mad .

I want to fix this loco, but with ESU LokSound XL decoder. I can take basically all the electronics and loudspeaker out of the tender. Also this decoder and it's base PCB. I hope it's possible to install that ESU LokSound XL decoder and loudspeaker for it in this loco. Is this AC motor ok to be used with it? There is a smoke unit and LED front lights in this loco and I want to use those in the future also. I paid only around 200 euro for this loco so I can buy a good decoder and it's still quite cheap loco after that.

I'm really sorry that you guys have thought how this thing works and what is what and I blow out the decoder. Cursing

Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Purellum  
#24 Posted : 01 December 2014 17:41:21(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Look at the positive side, now we know that this decoder isn't working and can concentrate on something else BigGrin

Also be happy that there is still one of the "smoke units" which we should expect to be OK Blink

You can't use this AC motor with a Loksound, without modifying it to be a DC-motor first.

There are several options; I'm working on an easy one for you. Be patient. Blink

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline Janne75  
#25 Posted : 01 December 2014 17:55:36(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
BigGrin

Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline Ukko-Pekka  
#26 Posted : 01 December 2014 22:57:28(UTC)
Ukko-Pekka

Finland   
Joined: 16/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 43
Location: NORTHERN FINLAND
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

when I look closely on the pictures, maybe the relays are coupled in series with the ree relays, so that the relays AND the reed relays have to be activated to make a sound.

Janni, I think you should forget about the black wire going nowhere for now, it is probably just an extra input or output from the decoder.

Per.

Cool


I think this is how its connected... And yes, leave black wire alone ;)
Offline Purellum  
#27 Posted : 02 December 2014 15:56:38(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

fun

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline Ukko-Pekka  
#28 Posted : 02 December 2014 16:30:29(UTC)
Ukko-Pekka

Finland   
Joined: 16/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 43
Location: NORTHERN FINLAND
Suicide cat... Laugh
Offline tommycox  
#29 Posted : 02 March 2015 21:02:49(UTC)
tommycox

United States   
Joined: 25/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Here are the four versions as shown in my 1985-6 catalog.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Janne75  
#30 Posted : 02 March 2015 21:54:02(UTC)
Janne75

Finland   
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,681
Location: Finland
Hi all,

I sold this 5713 DB BR 55 today with 200 euro as it has a damaged decoder. I will buy instead a Märklin 1-scale DB BR 18 later in my life Smile . I bought this BR 55 loco with a little more than 200 euro. So no more plans to buy a decoder for this one.

Regards,
Janne
Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.
Offline hennebror  
#31 Posted : 27 January 2021 05:29:16(UTC)
hennebror

United States   
Joined: 27/01/2021(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Wilmington, DE
I was so bummed when I got to the bottom of this thread and you had sold the lok... I have a 5713 as well and would like some info on how to install a decoder to be able to use with a CS1 or central control.
Offline Purellum  
#32 Posted : 27 January 2021 06:18:22(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: hennebror Go to Quoted Post
I was so bummed when I got to the bottom of this thread and you had sold the lok... I have a 5713 as well and would like some info on how to install a decoder to be able to use with a CS1 or central control.


I can help you, I'm working right now, please remind me if I forget.

Per

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#33 Posted : 27 January 2021 09:59:47(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,745
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
.......please remind me if I forget.


Hey Per.....this is a reminder......Wink

Early last year our club purchased the train collection of a former member who passed away. In the collection there was a Gauge 1 BR55, it was probably a 5713 - definitely AC analog.

Since I had the loco stored at my house during Covid lockdown I had a look at it to see how easy it would be to convert it to digital and it seemed to me to be fairy straight forward. You'd need the ESU permanent magnet to replace the motor's field coil, making the motor a DC motor. Wire in an appropriate decoder (I'd chose a Loksound XL) and away you go.
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Offline hennebror  
#34 Posted : 27 January 2021 21:12:43(UTC)
hennebror

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Per / BigD, I really appreciate any help you're willing to provide. I have a BR80 (5700) from an older 5530 starter set that i may do first as a practice run. Then I'll tackle the BR55.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#35 Posted : 27 January 2021 22:28:24(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
You'd need the ESU permanent magnet to replace the motor's field coil, making the motor a DC motor.


I can never remember the correct part number for this magnet. I need to get one at some point for an early br80 I have.

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

Wire in an appropriate decoder (I'd chose a Loksound XL) and away you go.


One might get away with using a Loksound L (designed for O gauge).
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#36 Posted : 27 January 2021 22:40:46(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I can never remember the correct part number for this magnet.


ESU 51965
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#37 Posted : 27 January 2021 22:47:21(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Originally Posted by: hennebror Go to Quoted Post
I have a BR80 (5700) from an older 5530 starter set that i may do first as a practice run.


The collection I referred to also had a Starter Set BR80 , which I also took a look at - it was my job to make sure the locos were running properly before being on sold (the BR55 needed new brushes before it ran properly).

Anyway, the BR80 also looks easy enough to convert using the permanent magnet with suitable decoder.

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Offline Purellum  
#38 Posted : 27 January 2021 22:49:54(UTC)
Purellum

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Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
One might get away with using a Loksound L (designed for O gauge).


I wouldn't dare, since I don't know the current draw of a motor rebuild this way Cool

I could of course measure it; but I don't have any at the moment Blink

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
You'd need the ESU permanent magnet to replace the motor's field coil, making the motor a DC motor.


Yes, that is the easiest solution; my solution is basically to make the magnet myself, using two rare earth magnets.

Per.

Cool

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Offline Purellum  
#39 Posted : 27 January 2021 23:20:05(UTC)
Purellum

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Cool

1: Remove some of the plastic housing from your motor, here two almost identical motors,
one with some of the plastic housing removed for the "rare earth" / Neodymium magnets:

aDSCF6807.jpg

aDSCF6811.jpg

2: Mount the two magnets, remember that one should have "South" pointing at the center of the motor,
the other should have "North" pointing at the center of the motor, and then rebuild the motor.

aDSCF6812.jpg

aDSCF6813.jpg

aDSCF6816.jpg

3: A piece of soft iron will increase the strength of the magnets a little, it's really not needed;
but it also reduces the magnetism around the motor.

aDSCF6817.jpg

Done BigGrin

The motor is now a DC-motor, and you don't need the coil on top of the motor any more.

Per.

Cool
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Offline hennebror  
#40 Posted : 28 January 2021 05:29:25(UTC)
hennebror

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Location: Wilmington, DE
Thank you everyone for all of the great info!

Per,
Do you have an estimated size for the rare earth magnets you’re using? I’ll have to start shopping around online, I don’t think that’s something I’ll find locally.

I’ll also have to do some more research on installing the decoder. I’m assuming there is already a thread on the actual decoder install here on the forum somewhere.

Do you always just go for the sound version? The BR80 as it is now is quite noisy. Probably needs some grease on the gears... 😬

Unfortunately I’ll be out of town for a few weeks but I’ll certainly keep everyone posted on the progress once I start.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#41 Posted : 28 January 2021 07:21:16(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,745
Location: New Zealand
A wiring diagram for the decoder is given in the decoder's manual.

Basically you have 7 wires (note that I'm using the Marklin colours and that the ESU colours are different)

- green and blue for the motor
- red for the power pickup
- brown for ground connection
- gray for front light
- yellow for the rear light
- orange for the return feed for the lights assuming lights are isolated from the loco chassis. If not, use the brown wire, but this can cause some flickering of the lights (orange wire is not ever to be connected to the brown ground wire)

There may be additional wires for other things

- Aux output for things like a smoke unit or cab lights, etc
- Two wires for a speaker for sound decoders.
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Offline Purellum  
#42 Posted : 28 January 2021 09:00:42(UTC)
Purellum

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Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: hennebror Go to Quoted Post
Do you have an estimated size for the rare earth magnets you’re using?


Not right now; but I can measure them on Sunday. I THINK they are 15x15x8mm Blink

You should be able to find the size yourself, just measure the width of the anchor of the motor,
a few mm smaller than mine would probably not make much difference.

I was just lucky I had the magnets already, from another project BigGrin

Even magnets similar to these would work, just "build" the size you need,
and of course remember that all magnets should "point" in the correct direction Cool

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i...d=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Just take care, they are really really strong.............. BigGrin

Per.

Cool
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Offline hennebror  
#43 Posted : 25 February 2021 13:44:30(UTC)
hennebror

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Location: Wilmington, DE
I made some progress on the motor conversion and was able to get it running on DC. It’s not super smooth, but it runs!

CAC80478-8186-4F36-8E99-77E42FBD79E3.jpeg232F2DC2-1799-41DE-BD3C-D2B98C558D91.jpeg

- Should I leave the small blue piece connected to the motor? I’m not familiar with its purpose.
- Any advantage to removing the coil on top vs just leaving it where it is but disconnected?
- Would adding the iron bar help smooth out the motor?
- Do you recommend new brushes or wait until they are fully consumed? There’s plenty of meat on them still. If so, will any brushes of a similar size work?

Loksound XL should hopefully get here by the end of the week!

Cheers



Offline Purellum  
#44 Posted : 25 February 2021 21:37:49(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
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Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: hennebror Go to Quoted Post
I made some progress on the motor conversion and was able to get it running on DC. It’s not super smooth, but it runs!

- Should I leave the small blue piece connected to the motor? I’m not familiar with its purpose.
Any advantage to removing the coil on top vs just leaving it where it is but disconnected?
Would adding the iron bar help smooth out the motor?
Do you recommend new brushes or wait until they are fully consumed? There’s plenty of meat on them still. If so, will any brushes of a similar size work?
Loksound XL should hopefully get here by the end of the week! Cheers


First of all, I can see that I promised to measure my magnets; but the forgot all about it Blushing I'm sorry; but 15x15x8mm was correct BigGrin

The blue thingy; I'm quite sure it's a coil, for pure DC it doesn't make any difference; but for the Loksound decoder regulating with PWM it is a problem, and should be removed.

The top coil doesn't do any harm, as long as it's not connected.

The iron bar doesn't make the running smoother, only maybe a little stronger.

The brushes looks OK for now; but have you cleaned the commutator - only wooden toothpicks and cotton buds may be used.

I theory any brushes of similar size would work; but it also have to be the correct hardness / softness, to avoid wear on the commutator.

Regarding the smoothness, it will never be like a 5 pole motor; but I found the ones I've made to be quite good.

Have you tried holding the gear wheel on the motor? Does it feel strong, like stronger than your fingers at e.g. 6V ?? BigGrin

IMHO it should be what I would call extremely strong BigGrin

Per.

Cool

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Offline hennebror  
#45 Posted : 26 February 2021 05:28:49(UTC)
hennebror

United States   
Joined: 27/01/2021(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Wilmington, DE
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post


The blue thingy; I'm quite sure it's a coil, for pure DC it doesn't make any difference; but for the Loksound decoder regulating with PWM it is a problem, and should be removed.

The iron bar doesn't make the running smoother, only maybe a little stronger.

Have you tried holding the gear wheel on the motor? Does it feel strong, like stronger than your fingers at e.g. 6V ?? BigGrin

IMHO it should be what I would call extremely strong BigGrin

Per.

Cool



Thank you as always! Good to know about the choke/coil, I’ll remove it.

I’ll try to get my hands on small iron bar. I don’t think i I have anything like that laying around.

I did hold the gear momentarily when I first turned it on but wasn’t measuring the voltage at the time. I certainly wouldn’t describe it as ‘extremely strong’ though.

I did not clean the commutator at all... I’ll add it to my list for the weekend and let you know how it goes! No solvent or anything? Just dry cotton and toothpick?
Offline hennebror  
#46 Posted : 27 February 2021 19:27:30(UTC)
hennebror

United States   
Joined: 27/01/2021(UTC)
Posts: 17
Location: Wilmington, DE
I wiped off the commutator and reassembled the motor. It’ll spin, but has absolutely no torque. Even the lightest pressure brings it to a stop.

The windings don’t appear to be in the best shape. Anyone have experience rewinding these or know of a source for replacement armatures?

9AF89D07-7145-488C-9B05-5903084F7FE4.jpeg
Offline Purellum  
#47 Posted : 27 February 2021 20:19:25(UTC)
Purellum

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Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: hennebror Go to Quoted Post
I wiped off the commutator and reassembled the motor. It’ll spin, but has absolutely no torque. Even the lightest pressure brings it to a stop.

The windings don’t appear to be in the best shape. Anyone have experience rewinding these or know of a source for replacement armatures?


Strange. The only difference I see, is that I used two big magnets, where you're using 2x5 magnets stacked,
which shouldn't make any difference Confused Confused

Are you sure they are pointing the right way, one of them pointing south to the motor and the other one north to the motor?

Basically you should have a stack of 10 magnets, and then drop the motor into the middle BigGrin

You could try to turn one of the stacks just to test.

What power supply do you use for the test?

As for the armature, it looks OK to me, and the windings either work or don't work.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

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Offline Purellum  
#48 Posted : 27 February 2021 20:34:15(UTC)
Purellum

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Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I just did a small test; I took a random motor and mounted two magnets,
without even removing any of the plastic housing of the motor Cool

At 6V it really hurts my fingers to try and stop the motor........ Blink

At 9V I can't stop the motor; it hurts and burns my fingers too much BigGrin

Per.

Cool
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Offline Purellum  
#49 Posted : 27 February 2021 21:15:48(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
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Posts: 3,303
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

I made a quick video; please note again that I didn't even remove any plastic from the motor housing BigGrin

The sound and the bending of the Wooden Hand Uncoupler™ should show how much strength the motor has Blink

BigGrin



Per.

Cool
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Offline Purellum  
#50 Posted : 27 February 2021 23:01:52(UTC)
Purellum

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Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

One more question:

When you have all 10 magnets stacked in one stack, is it almost impossible to divide them into two stacks by hand?

Or, if you have 5 magnets in each hand, how far away from each other can you feel them start pulling at each other?

I can feel mine at about 5cm, and at 1cm I really have to hold on to them Blink

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

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