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Offline Jvt1  
#1 Posted : 10 June 2013 00:59:33(UTC)
Jvt1

Australia   
Joined: 04/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55
Confused I have been struggling for over a month. I have setup my braking module so that we the signal change to green the loco moves of again. However when I set the signal to red the green signal light stays on because of the current from the braking module in the stop section. How do stop the green signal light being on all the time.
Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 10 June 2013 04:22:54(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,857
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
can you draw a wiring diagram so we know how you've done the wiring.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Rinus  
#3 Posted : 10 June 2013 22:13:45(UTC)
Rinus


Joined: 20/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Wageningen, The Netherlands
Yeah I operated them in the past. It is possible.

Please edit a scheme please.

Also its extremely important you separate the track corectly.

Rinus
Offline Jvt1  
#4 Posted : 11 June 2013 00:02:23(UTC)
Jvt1

Australia   
Joined: 04/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55
Please see attached diagram of wiring.
File Attachment(s):
Diagram.pdf (15kb) downloaded 194 time(s).
Offline efel  
#5 Posted : 11 June 2013 13:17:07(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Hi,
You have just to remove the red wire between the k84 and the stop section.

Fred
Offline Jvt1  
#6 Posted : 11 June 2013 23:34:10(UTC)
Jvt1

Australia   
Joined: 04/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55
Hi Fred.

However if I remove the wire then I can not use the signal to control the braking module.

I am trying work out how to keep the signal and stop the green light being on all the time

Regards

JVT
Offline Jvt1  
#7 Posted : 12 June 2013 00:03:02(UTC)
Jvt1

Australia   
Joined: 04/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by: Rinus Go to Quoted Post
Yeah I operated them in the past. It is possible.

Please edit a scheme please.

Also its extremely important you separate the track corectly.

Rinus


Hi Rinus

I would really appreciate your feedback based on your experience.

Thank you JVTBigGrin
File Attachment(s):
Diagram.pdf (15kb) downloaded 57 time(s).
Offline Danlake  
#8 Posted : 12 June 2013 07:14:23(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,555
Hi Jvt1

What type of signal do you use?

The brake module is not active when there is power in the stop section. Any train can pass.

If no power in stop section the brake module is activated by lack of voltage.

To manipulate the stop section you would normally use a signal. When the signal is red it cuts off the power.

To manipulate a signal you would normally use a K83 module or a Viesmmann 5211.

If you do not have a signal you could use a K84 module to switch on/off the power section.

What I see is that you have mixed a K84 and a signal, which I am not sure will work? But lot's of experienced guys here, so somone may know how to do.Blink

Or else try using a K83 module to control the signal and let the signal control the stop section?RollEyes

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline Jvt1  
#9 Posted : 12 June 2013 08:22:37(UTC)
Jvt1

Australia   
Joined: 04/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55
Hi Lasse

I am using viessman light signals such as 4011
Offline efel  
#10 Posted : 12 June 2013 08:44:54(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Originally Posted by: Jvt1 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fred.

However if I remove the wire then I can not use the signal to control the braking module.

I am trying work out how to keep the signal and stop the green light being on all the time

Regards

JVT

Hi,
You are right. I must admit I answered too quickly, thinking that the 5232 had its own decoder, and was controlled by the digital signal. In fact, it has no decoder, and is controlled by the voltage on the S input.
That being said, I'm surprised that the 5232 current of the S sense input is large enough (some mA) to activate a LED connected to ground (and not to the digital signal). (I suppose that your signal lights are LEDS)
I see 3 possibilities:
1- Use a second output of the k84 to connect the red/green lights, and send simultaneously both adresses.
2- Use a k83 associated with a DPDT bistable relay instead of the k 84. That way, you also have 2 independant circuits, one for controlling the 5232, the other for the lights.
3-Insert a diode in the wire connecting the S input to the stop section, in such a way that the green LED is OFF at red signal. That diode should not prevent the 5232 to detect the presence of the digital signal when "green". BUT this is just an own assumption, for I have not found on the web the 5232 electrical diagram. But you might try, because it's a cheap solution in case it works.
Fred
Offline Danlake  
#11 Posted : 12 June 2013 09:00:27(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,555
Hi Jvt1

Ok - so you are using a dayligt signal.

You can control a daylight signal and track power at same time, but I think you need to use 2 outputs on the K84 .

Have a read trough this post:

https://www.marklin-user...spx?g=posts&m=180454

Brgds - Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline Jvt1  
#12 Posted : 12 June 2013 12:16:47(UTC)
Jvt1

Australia   
Joined: 04/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Jvt1 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fred.

However if I remove the wire then I can not use the signal to control the braking module.

I am trying work out how to keep the signal and stop the green light being on all the time

Regards

JVT

Hi,
You are right. I must admit I answered too quickly, thinking that the 5232 had its own decoder, and was controlled by the digital signal. In fact, it has no decoder, and is controlled by the voltage on the S input.
That being said, I'm surprised that the 5232 current of the S sense input is large enough (some mA) to activate a LED connected to ground (and not to the digital signal). (I suppose that your signal lights are LEDS)
I see 3 possibilities:
1- Use a second output of the k84 to connect the red/green lights, and send simultaneously both adresses.
2- Use a k83 associated with a DPDT bistable relay instead of the k 84. That way, you also have 2 independant circuits, one for controlling the 5232, the other for the lights.
3-Insert a diode in the wire connecting the S input to the stop section, in such a way that the green LED is OFF at red signal. That diode should not prevent the 5232 to detect the presence of the digital signal when "green". BUT this is just an own assumption, for I have not found on the web the 5232 electrical diagram. But you might try, because it's a cheap solution in case it works.
Fred



Hi Fred

With your point 1, do you have sample wiring diagram of how this would work?

Cheers

JVT
Offline efel  
#13 Posted : 12 June 2013 13:21:31(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
In the attached file below, Adress 1 drives the signal lights; Adress 2 controls the stop section voltage. It's up to you to send both adresses.
efel attached the following image(s):
diagram.gif
Offline Jvt1  
#14 Posted : 13 June 2013 00:35:32(UTC)
Jvt1

Australia   
Joined: 04/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post
In the attached file below, Adress 1 drives the signal lights; Adress 2 controls the stop section voltage. It's up to you to send both adresses.


Hi Fred.

Understood.BigGrin

I am not very familar at electronics, with point 2 what is a DPDT bistable relay and how would this be wiried up?

Cheers

JVT
Offline efel  
#15 Posted : 13 June 2013 09:50:44(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Hi,
A DPDT relay has 2 independant circuits, switched at the same time when the coil is energized.
This link explains better than I could do.
You can buy a bistable DPDT relay for 3 euros or so, and connect it in soldering wires, but as you said you are not familiar at electronic, you could buy instead, for instance, a 5552 viessmann: it's 2 independant DPDT relays in a single case.
You can find here how to connect it to a k83.
That way, only 1 adress is needed for your application.
Fred
Offline Jvt1  
#16 Posted : 13 June 2013 21:48:15(UTC)
Jvt1

Australia   
Joined: 04/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
A DPDT relay has 2 independant circuits, switched at the same time when the coil is energized.
This link explains better than I could do.
You can buy a bistable DPDT relay for 3 euros or so, and connect it in soldering wires, but as you said you are not familiar at electronic, you could buy instead, for instance, a 5552 viessmann: it's 2 independant DPDT relays in a single case.
You can find here how to connect it to a k83.
That way, only 1 adress is needed for your application.
Fred


Thank you. Fred
Offline Jvt1  
#17 Posted : 15 June 2013 00:34:20(UTC)
Jvt1

Australia   
Joined: 04/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
A DPDT relay has 2 independant circuits, switched at the same time when the coil is energized.
This link explains better than I could do.
You can buy a bistable DPDT relay for 3 euros or so, and connect it in soldering wires, but as you said you are not familiar at electronic, you could buy instead, for instance, a 5552 viessmann: it's 2 independant DPDT relays in a single case.
You can find here how to connect it to a k83.
That way, only 1 adress is needed for your application.
Fred


Hi Fred,

I have decided to go with your point 1.

Your advise is much appreciated.

I have another quick question. Can the Viessmann 5232 braking module up to be setup to work in both direct?

Cheers

Justin
Offline efel  
#18 Posted : 15 June 2013 12:52:54(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Hi,
I remember there were some threads on this forum concerning braking in both direction.
Not sure it is straightforward.
Fred
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