Experience with Uhlenbrock 76200, and now with some sound

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Experience with Uhlenbrock 76200, and now with some sound

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franciscohg		#1 Posted : 08 March 2013 15:52:07(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		Hi everybody, i have bougth a time ago a couple of old Marklin steamers, they havent arrived yet, but as for the pictures they are mint, mint, mint, so i dont want to mess much with them and their motors, i have some spare Delta Units but since they have smoke units i rahter prefer to use a decoder with functions and also load regulation would be nice. I have found the Uhlenbrock 76200 suitable for that, also not expensive decoders, but i have read some erratic experiences with them, does anybody have some experience with these decoders? It is also recomendable to use the kit 71500 even if the motor runs fine? Thanks in advance Francisco
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL

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Mark5		#2 Posted : 08 March 2013 15:59:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada		Originally Posted by: franciscohg Hi everybody, i have bougth a time ago a couple of old Marklin steamers, they havent arrived yet, but as for the pictures they are mint, mint, mint, so i dont want to mess much with them and their motors, i have some spare Delta Units but since they have smoke units i rahter prefer to use a decoder with functions and also load regulation would be nice. I have found the Uhlenbrock 76200 suitable for that, also not expensive decoders, but i have read some erratic experiences with them, does anybody have some experience with these decoders? It is also recomendable to use the kit 71500 even if the motor runs fine? Thanks in advance Francisco Looking forward to answers to this excellent question. Thanks for asking Francisco.
		DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70. In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?


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Besra		#3 Posted : 13 March 2013 11:06:50(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/08/2010(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: Near Duesseldorf, Germany		Hi Francisco, first of all, yes I have some experience with UB 76200 decoders. I had about 15 or 16 Marklin locos converted with UB 76200. The number decreased slightly because with some locos I wasn't too happy with the result and converted to HLA+Zimo decoder. One thing to remember is the UB 76200 appeared many years ago and while other decoders are now available in their 3rd or 4th (or even higher) generation the UB 76200 is still the same old boy. Nevertheless the results with 76200 can be very satisfying provided you are willing to invest time in the configuration of CVs. In contrast with some other decoders the 76200 offers a lot of configurable motor parameters. At least five if I remember correctly. This can be seen as an advantage but configuring all those parameters with their dependencies is not easy. In some (rare) cases, however, the default settings may also work. So is the UB 76200 a recommendation? Well, difficult to answer. In the end it all depends on your personal demands. In my opinion the UB76200 is much better in locos with 3-pole motors than an ESU LoPi V3.0 (with HLA the LoPi is OK). I have three locos converted to LoPi 3.0 and I am not satisfied with the result because either the loco tends to run uneven (I'm not sure if this is the correct word to describe it) at mid speed or, if you decrease and slow down motor regulation it will start with a little jump. The UB76200 is a little better here even though not perfect (compared to Zimo + 3-pole motor). The minimum speeds are more or less comparable to those of locos with LoPi (which means quite high compared with Zimo). Load regulation of the UB76200 is good in most cases but with some locos it may be hard to find correct settings. Conclusion: The 76200 is much better than its reputation but it is not up-do-date. My recommendation is to give it a try. It is a simple and cost effective solution and the motor remains as is. If you provide a list with the locos you want to convert I may be able to give some hints or, in best case, a list of CV settings. The suppressor kit 71500 I've never used. Generally all chokes and capacitors remain attached as they are in the analogue loco. No need to change anything here but I can't tell if 71500 makes any difference. By the way: The UB 76200 is perfect for 35xx (5*****) locos! Many other decoders fail miserably here but the 76200 seems to like the old 5-pole motor. Best regards Besra

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Mark5		#4 Posted : 13 March 2013 17:12:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC) Posts: 1,422 Location: Montreal, Canada		Originally Posted by: Besra By the way: The UB 76200 is perfect for 35xx (5*****) locos! Many other decoders fail miserably here but the 76200 seems to like the old 5-pole motor. Great review Besra! Thanks so much for posting this. I am guessing you meant the "old 3-pole motor" in the statement above? I'd love to hear more (see more) of one example of a 35xx loco that you converted. What is HLA? For your amusement, Google gives me - Historic Langhorne Association - HLA Genotype Imputation - HLA-Dependent T Cell - HLA-restricted epitopes - HLA-based train control simulation system (prototype??) - High-level architecture - - HLA . Hong Leong Assurance Right, none of the above get me closer. Oh ...wait found this HLA - Hochleistungsantrieb which translates as High Performance Drive. But what actually does that mean in the MMR context? A review of the HLA+Zimo decoders would make a great thread in itself. - Mark
		DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70. In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?


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Janne75		#5 Posted : 13 March 2013 20:25:28(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/03/2012(UTC) Posts: 2,550 Location: Finland		I think he really means 5-pole analog 35XX locos. HLA means high efficiency propulsion. I just had to open one of my 3050 locos that was sold to me as equipped with an Uhlenbrock decoder (the type was not mentioned in the advertisement). I wondered many months ago why the decoder address could not be changed with my CS2. I just opened this locos body for the first time... Now I know why the only "Uhlenbrock" decoder loco did not react to CS2 when trying to change it's address. It has an Märklin 6080 decoder!! So the address is easily changed if wanted with dip switches. This loco runs surprisingly well to be equipped with an old 6080 "mouse piano". I think that this motor type LFCM (large flat commutator motor) runs better with 6080 than those DCM and SFCM motors. Cheers, Janne
		Märklin H0 digital layout. I have analog and digital H0 Collection. Rolling stock mostly from era I, II, III and IV. Märklin 1 gauge beginner.

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franciscohg		#6 Posted : 14 March 2013 02:33:50(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		Besra many thanks for your answer, very clarifying!! The locos in wich i want to install this decoder are a 3047 and a 3048, but if the results are good, perhaps i will fit it in some of my delta equipped ones. Do you think the decoder will handle the smoke units and telex with no problems? Should i use a relay? Regards Francisco
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL


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Besra		#7 Posted : 14 March 2013 11:10:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/08/2010(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: Near Duesseldorf, Germany		Hello, my apologies for calling the motor "HLA" which is of course the German abbreviation for "Hochleistungsantrieb". I should have used a common English expression - which I don't know . It is the high propulsion drive which is found in the sets 60941, 60943 and 60944, respectively, called "High-Efficiency Motor Conversion Sets" by Marklin. So, it is the High-Efficiency Motor. "HEM" maybe . This High-Efficiency Motor with a Zimo decoder (MX 630 in most cases) nowadays is my preferred combination because of the outstanding slow driving performance, excellent motor regulation and, in contrast with Marklin c90 (6090) decoders which also did an excellent job, separately adjustable acceleration and deceleration rates. Not to mention 3-point smoke unit control (smoke rate adjustable for halt, run and acceleration) automated TELEX control, lights on in analogue operation and so on. Originally Posted by: Mark5 A review of the HLA+Zimo decoders would make a great thread in itself. I converted about 20 locos to Zimo decoders with either high-efficiency motor or, where this is not (easily) possible, with ESU field magnets. You may open a new thread on this and will try to give answers. Originally Posted by: Mark5 Originally Posted by: Besra By the way: The UB 76200 is perfect for 35xx (5****) locos! Many other decoders fail miserably here but the 76200 seems to like the old 5-pole motor. I am guessing you meant the "old 3-pole motor" in the statement above? I'd love to hear more (see more) of one example of a 35xx loco that you converted. With "old 5-pole motor" I intended to refer to the 5-pole motor used in 35xx locos (5-pole motor and field coil, spare part number 610030) in contrast to the "new" one used in the high-efficiency motor. 610030 + field coil, i.e. the original set-up of 35xx locos, gives excellent results with the UB 76200 decoder. The only original 35xx loco I converted is the Swiss "Crocodile" Be 6/8 (3556). But I also had a spare 610030 which fits in any loco with DCM motor. My Swiss AE 3/6 (3167) with DCM did always start abruptly and did not run smooth in analogue operation. After conversion to UB 76200 the behaviour remained more or less the same. Then I remembered the spare 610030 and threw it in, a great improvement! In conclusion the 5 Motor 610030 + field coil + UB76200 gives excellent results whereas 610030 + field magnet (original Marklin or ESU) + any decoder will badly disappoint. The latter is often discussed on forums and the 5* motor is generally characterised as not suitable for digital operation. Originally Posted by: Janne75 I think that this motor type LFCM (large flat commutator motor) runs better with 6080 than those DCM and SFCM motors. Definitely yes! This is also true for UB 76200: LFCM gives better results than SFCM (usually) and DCM (sometimes). Best regards Besra

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Besra		#8 Posted : 14 March 2013 13:07:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/08/2010(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: Near Duesseldorf, Germany		Originally Posted by: franciscohg The locos in wich i want to install this decoder are a 3047 and a 3048, but if the results are good, perhaps i will fit it in some of my delta equipped ones. Do you think the decoder will handle the smoke units and telex with no problems? Should i use a relay? Hi Francisco, I have a 3047 (BR 44) and a 3048 (BR 01), too . The 3047 is indeed equipped with the UB 76200 and running very good! This one you can try to convert without concerns. The CVs controlling the motor regulation are CV....value (default)....Meaning [as far as I know] 53....200 (150)..........EMF sampling interval 54....240 (130)..........P-value of PID controller (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller 55....20 (30).............I-value of PID controller 56....55 (48).............EMF scaling 57....10 (3 ?).............D-value of PID controller 58....25 (25).............EMF sampling time EMF sampling interval: How often the measurement is performed. Low values = short interval = high rate mean faster reaction but also less motor power at given EMF sampling time. Loco may tend to shake or jitter. Increase value if acceleration is inhomogeneous. EMF sampling time: How long the measurement will take. High values = more time means higher accuracy and less motor power. The higher the sampling rate the lower the sampling time has to be; very long times at high rates will not work as there is no remaining time to power the motor. Concerning smoke units and TELEX: TELEX is working fine in my BR 86 (3096). I have no experience with smoke units and UB76200. In general the 76200 produces a lot of waste heat compared to other decoders as it has to power the field coil and the armature. Further permanent load from a smoke unit may lead to overheating depending on how the decoder is mounted. The decoder is not destroyed by overheating but it will switch off the motor and the head lights start blinking. Track power has to be switched off and on to resume normal operation. My recommendation is to mount it to the chassis using the screw from the reversing relay as this turned out to result in best heat dissipation. Be aware you need a few metal flat washers or something like that to keep sufficient distance between chassis and decoder. No part of the decoder other than the area around the mounting hole must ever make contact to the chassis or the decoder will immediately die! Use flat washers small in diameter (or, e.g., a M3 nut + washer) and make sure they do not short-circuit anything on the circuit board (but don't use plastic parts as this will hinder heat dissipation). The motor of the BR 01 (3048) has a somewhat higher power consumption compared to other models (at least mine has). I have my doubts that the 76200 can be used here even though I've never tried. My 3048 got an ESU field magnet and runs good with a Zimo MX630. Very loud, though . The MX630 (1.0A continuous load max.) is more or less used to full capacity if the smoke unit is on: If the EMF sampling rate is set too high, the decoder will overheat. MX631 (1.2A ) or MX632 (1.6A) should be better. Best regards Besra Edited by user 21 March 2013 18:26:42(UTC) \| Reason: motor parameters updated

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Besra		#9 Posted : 14 March 2013 14:13:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/08/2010(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: Near Duesseldorf, Germany		Hi, finally found a few minutes to open the 3047 and make some photos. Surprisingly I added new chokes in this time and removed the original one. I don't remember why, probably it was a test whether or not this makes a difference. The decoder is mounted using the original screw of the reversing relay, a flat washer and a small nut as additional washer. The loco had two pick-up shoes which I thought is not ideal in digital operation where this could short-circuit booster sections. I removed the front one and it turned out that one pick-up shoe is sufficient. Best regards Besra Besra attached the following image(s):

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franciscohg		#10 Posted : 14 March 2013 22:15:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		Thanks for your answer Besra, well i have to wait the locos to get here and then order the decoders, so i think i will be able too some feedback in about a month.... No concerns with the 3047, as for the 3048: I have another 01, converted with an high efficiency motor and a LP2.0 from many years now, it runs like heaven, but the motor plate does not fit at once, i had to made some modifications on it, the one that is coming, is as i said so mint, that i dont to touch it too much, i will give a try with the 76200 and see, as for the Hamo magnet, i have a 3022 with a LFCM converted with an ESU kit, and it is very noisy, also, driving characteristics are not the best, perhaps i have not try too much with CV, but i dont have that "feel" with electric locos...... When all the parts are here and conversions are done i will provide more feedback with the results, hope that at the time my CS2 will be back from Germany and not have to do all the configuration with the MS2 only. Cheers Francisco
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL


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Graham HO		#11 Posted : 21 March 2013 08:18:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/07/2008(UTC) Posts: 126		My former analogue M.3553 BR120 with the 5 pole armature has run well since converting to UB 76200 with load regulation - a twin layer 5% helix of 2231 curves and several other 5% climbs are no problem. These UB 76200's are good value, but you need to spend some time setting them up for optimum performance - so it is a pity that we don't hear more about them as an alternative digital retrofit.

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franciscohg		#12 Posted : 24 May 2013 03:48:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		Ok, back to this topic.....today have arrived a bunch of 76200 decoders, so far......not so good.......but i think that it is not a decoder problem, i think that perhaps it is the MS2 that really sucks!!!! As many of you may know my CS2 is having a nice vacation at Goeppingen for about 4 months now so i have been forced to use my son's MS2 from a starter set, as i have already pointed out i am not happy with the performance of it since it does not recognize some locos equiped with ESU decoders, having not trouble with Maerklin ones equipped with MM2 or MFX, even some Deltas run well, but back to the topic... I have installed one 76200 on a 3047, when tested it simples does not work well, i think it was a short but i double checked, and everything was ok, i programmes the values that Besra pointed early on the thread but the performance was poor, it jerks, seems to give no power to the coil at some speed steps, simply stops run sometimes, the max speed was very low, when i switch the lights on it simply stops, and the thing that most worried me was that with the throttle at 0, if i swichted the lights on, they blinked a lot, and in both directions of travel, i thought that i might be overheating, but the loco was stand still......perhaps the LCFM draws too much current? Well, i installed another one on a 3098, and everything was worse.......... I was almost giving it up, when i tried to make a test on analog, and...........everything was perfect!!!!! no flickering on the lights, stays on only on forward, and the max speed was the one that we are all used on an analog loco, just like a lightning!!!! Step two: i have unpacked an old MS1, program a loco with adress 01 and.....yes, you are right, everything works as heaven again!!!! not a chance to test on a big track because i set up only 3 pieces of it but they worked fine..... i will now search for a connector box to do the test on the layout and see....wich i have found and.....the locos works just fine! Any ideas of why may i having this behaviour?? Regards Francisco
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL


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franciscohg		#13 Posted : 26 May 2013 04:25:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		well, I have continued to test those 76200, with the MS1 of course. I am just happy, the 44 with the CV that Besra told us it is running nice an smooth, did not connected the smoke and telex yet, I'm waiting for some relays so I want to use one to feed the smoke unit. the 38 runs well with the default parameters. I still have two spares unit, will see where I will mount them. I like to have oldies with the old motor using delta's, C80, old PD 101,.and now those 76200, mainly because you can still feel THE smell.....
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL


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franciscohg		#14 Posted : 28 June 2013 04:01:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		Well, with the CS2 back it was easier to tune those decoders, and they are running very well, even if they are very sensitive to dirt in the tracks ( the layout has not have any intense use in some time now ), with a couple of turns everything is better now, i have fitted the units in a BR44, red BR03 and the black P8, in the two firts i have yet to wire smoke units and telex, but the 3098 is running just fine, take a look
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL

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franciscohg		#15 Posted : 29 June 2013 17:15:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		The conversion of the BR03 was a little more challlenging, even if the housing has the hole for a smoke generator, at least in my model there is no contact for it, also the bulb is placed too far of the light difuser for my taste, so i have managed to mount a bulb holder more ahead, fit a 2 pin socket on it and put a warm white LED, the result is very nice IMHO, because it brings some kind of futuristic looks to the loco. franciscohg attached the following image(s):
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL

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Besra		#16 Posted : 30 June 2013 11:05:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/08/2010(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: Near Duesseldorf, Germany		Cool vids Francisco, thanks for sharing! The one with the 03 impressively shows a well working load regulation of the 76200. I always wonder why some folks claim it has a bad (or almost no) load regulation. You proved them wrong! The 3089 has no contact for a smoke unit, that's true. But it should be easy to solder a wire to the unit. Seuthe also offers wired smoke units (e.g. No. 100), if needed. Best regards Besra


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franciscohg		#17 Posted : 01 July 2013 00:05:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		Hello Besra, well thanks to your useful tips evrything was more easy At last, i have ordered 4 units of the 76200, and they are mounted already in the following units: 3089 - BR03 - working just fine, with smoke unit fitted, LCFM engine 3047 - BR44 - working just fine, with smoke unit and telex working ok, light mountes on a separate holder to have independent control of the smoke unit. LCFM engine 3098 - BR38 - working just fine, SFCM engine 3005 - BR23 - working just fine, SFCM engine Very happy with the results so far, i thing i will order some more soon to have in stock. And another question arise.........experiences with the SUSI module? regards
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL


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Besra		#18 Posted : 03 July 2013 11:16:07(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/08/2010(UTC) Posts: 27 Location: Near Duesseldorf, Germany		Hi Francisco, I'm very happy to hear these good results! Originally Posted by: franciscohg 3098 - BR38 - working just fine, SFCM engine My 3089 had to run through lot of conversions until I was (and still am) satisfied: The first one was from analogue to a very early and very cheap Tams decoder (LD W-1 or something). Not so good. Running characteristics were comparable to Marklin c80 decoders of that time, the Tams additionally did offer programmable acceleration / deceleration rates but worst thing was the loco sometimes crawled away slowly when it was supposed to stand still. Next conversion was from Tams to Uhlenbrock 75200, first decoder with load regulation available for Marklin motors. The load regulation, even though far away from being perfect, was an improvement but the running characteristics did not satisfy me plus it was hard work to program CV's. So, next try: Uhlenbrock 76200. Much better, but still load regulation was less good than known from other conversions. I spent hours trying to find best CV settings but in the end I decided to convert it again. This time by removing the field coil, replacing it with an ESU magnet and adding a ZIMO MX630. Perfect, or better to say as good as can be expected considering the 3-pole armature in use. Anyway, from your video it looks like one conversion is sufficient in your case ;) When asking about SUSI modules I guess you are referring to sound modules? Sorry, I have no experience with them. The only modules I ever connected to SUSI ports were LISSY transmitters. Best regards Besra


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franciscohg		#19 Posted : 04 July 2013 17:18:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		Hi Besra, it Works fine at the first attempt, but only thanks to your work on fine tunning the CV's I have only one experience keeping the 3 pole motor and a permanent magnet. but i was really not happy with the result. Of course the full conversión using 5 pole motors gave amazing results, but it is more expensive and it is hard to have in stock those motors for every old model one could buy...in the long term i think they are the way to go.... Remember that everything i want or need, i have to wait more than a month from buying to receiving it, so, those 76200 will be a very nice choice to hame some in stock and make run all the oldies that i might buy at once!!
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL


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franciscohg		#20 Posted : 09 August 2013 21:33:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		Well, a couple of sound modules have arrived, along with the USB ladeadapter, wich i must say is cheap and easy to use, even if almost all the documentation is in German, not like the upgrade of mSD wich i cannot yet make sucessfully........ It works very well, here a sample with my old BR 44, now i will work with my BR 23
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL


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franciscohg		#21 Posted : 10 August 2013 02:17:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,298 Location: Patagonia		And the BR 23 - 3005
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL


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