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Offline BrandonVA  
#1 Posted : 02 February 2012 16:36:09(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
This is surely a repeat topic, for that I apologize. I'm trying to figure out what I would need to "go digital" with my layout in the most economic way possible.

My current layout is analog, I have three electrically isolated loops, each with a 32va transformer (and some isolated parking yards), and about 18 two-way turnouts, 2 three-ways and a couple of uncouplers, signals (not currently setup for block, but was thinking about it one day). I'm running K track, all of my power sections are 2292 (with the capacitor).

I understand with digital I would not need to isolate the sections of the layout, unless I wanted to section part of it off for analog operation. For this discussion, I would assume the entire layout will be digital.

I want to be able to run 3-4 locos on my layout at the same time, with more parked (9-10 total including those running). I probably don't want to invest in decoders yet, so the turnouts, etc could remain analog. I don't have that many locos overall, 8 analog and 6 digital.

What would I need? I was looking at an MS or MS-2, but I am not sure what other things (boosters, connections, etc) I would need to "plug and play" with a M or MS-2? I'm not worried about converting the analog locos at this point, if I need to do that there is tons of information here as there are many experts!

Thank you.
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 02 February 2012 17:15:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,266
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
I understand with digital I would not need to isolate the sections of the layout, unless I wanted to section part of it off for analog operation.
No, you also need isolation if you use boosters.

If you go for an MS2, then the whole layout will be powered from a single 36 W power supply.
That's enough to run 5 locos with DC motors running at the same time, but not enough for 5 Delta locos or locos with a 6080 decoder. The limit will be 3 or 4 for modern locos with sound and smoke generators.

Lighted coaches with light bulbs also draw much current (even when standing still as lights will be always on).

If you have no lighted coaches, then an MS2 without boosters may be sufficient for your layout.

For digital you must remove the capacitors from the 2292.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline BrandonVA  
#3 Posted : 02 February 2012 17:39:48(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Thanks H0. I would assume a booster per isolated section?
Offline kbvrod  
#4 Posted : 02 February 2012 17:45:52(UTC)
kbvrod

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Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Brandon,all,

Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Thanks H0. I would assume a booster per isolated section?


Yes(3rd rail iso) and every booster has it's own tranfo.

Dr D
Offline Chris6382chris  
#5 Posted : 02 February 2012 18:04:16(UTC)
Chris6382chris

United States   
Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,215
Location: Middle of the US
Brandon:

Your digital needs sound similar to mine. I can tell you that I ended up doing the following:

ECOS 2 - Transformer built in and it provides 4 Amps - So for running 4-5 trains no need for a booster. (Price approx. $750)
Switches, if they are already motorized you only need the decoders. I would recomend Switchpilot's, they can control 4 swith motors each (price about $37 each)

And then I would recommend the lokpilot decoders, no sound, (price approx. $40 with the magnet)

So total cost to go totally digital with your switches, engines and track control -

8 Engines * $40 = $320
Ecos 2 = $750
Digital control of Switches 6 switch pilots * $37 = $240 (I rounded up)

So everything for about $1300. Of course you can add digital to the switches later or a few at a time and same with the conversion of the engines.

And all that would be required is wiring the Ecos to your track and then wiring the switches to the switchpilots and converting the 8 engines. And you are fully digital. The only other thing I didn't mention was adding S88's for track detection but I use LED's and at this time I don't use any of the feedback features an S88 would offer. (But again the ECOS would allow for that should you decide to go down that path.)

Again, this is what I did for my layout and I am very happy with the ESU products with my Markling engines and I am sure if you ask the members on here can tell you the Marklin equivalents as well.

I hope this helps.
Offline BrandonVA  
#6 Posted : 02 February 2012 18:11:18(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Thanks everyone.

I guess what I don't understand is the difference between a booster and a transformer. Is a booster the same as a connection box?
Offline steventrain  
#7 Posted : 02 February 2012 18:28:19(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,606
Location: United Kingdom
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Thanks everyone.

I guess what I don't understand is the difference between a booster and a transformer. Is a booster the same as a connection box?



The full instruction booklet included with booster.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 02 February 2012 20:23:39(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,266
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
Is a booster the same as a connection box?
There is a booster in the connection box (the new type for MS2).

On every digital layout there is a single device that encodes the loco commands into a pattern of polarity changes. Boosters simply amplify the digital current - by adding boosters, the layout can grow and more trains can run at the same time.

With MS2, the encoder (Gleisformatprozessor or Track Format Processor) and a small booster (1.9 A) are in the connection box.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline BrandonVA  
#9 Posted : 02 February 2012 20:37:02(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Ah, that makes sense. Now I understand.

It sounds like the MS2 includes a power supply (36w).

So, in a very basic implementation I would need:

-MS2
-Connector box
-Transformer (optional, if I required more power than the basic MS2 power supply)

In this model, would a separate MS2 connector box with built in booster also be applied each isolated sections if power expansion was needed beyond a single transformer? Or since it also as the encoder, can there be only one?

And can multiple feeder track be run into the same connector box?

Chris - thank you also for good options with Ecos, I will add it to the options to weigh.
Offline Shintaro  
#10 Posted : 02 February 2012 21:03:38(UTC)
Shintaro

Australia   
Joined: 23/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: Campbelltown
As far as my knowledge is concerned with the MS2 you cannot add a booster to it. (as per instruction, can only use one connection box per layout.)
But my knowledge is limited.

Feeder track - yes, just split the two wires (B/O) coming from the track box.
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 02 February 2012 21:29:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,266
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
-Transformer (optional, if I required more power than the basic MS2 power supply)
No, MS2 can't give more power than the power supply that comes with it.

Märklin offer no boosters for use with MS2. Delta Controls and some non-Märklin boosters can still be used. I suggest to cross that bridge when you get to it (if you decide to go the MS2 way).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline rbw993  
#12 Posted : 02 February 2012 22:22:46(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 956
Hi Brandon,
Another option is to go digital in stages. You could postpone converting the switches to digital and run them with analog (button) control. This will slightly reduce the amount of current being used as the sitch power will be independent from the loco current. It will reduce the component cost by about $200 as you won't need the switch decoders. You could try out Digital with just the MS2 this way. Just because you have three seperate circuits now doesn't mean you have to use a booster to power each of them. You could temporarily hook them all together and only run as many locos as the MS2 can handle for now. Add more power later as you require it.

Good Luck
Roger
Offline BrandonVA  
#13 Posted : 03 February 2012 14:15:49(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Now I see some of the expansion benefits of CS2 vs. MS2.

I was confused by the change of architecture from MS1 to MS2. In the case of MS2, I now understand it's really a pretty simple setup excluding accessories such as switches.

For running locos on the track, if using MS2 I would need:

60653 (Mobil station 2)
60113 (Digital connector box for MS2)
60055 (60va Transformer). This one is optional, only if I need more power than the 36w included with MS2.

If the switches were analog, I would continue "blue boxes" and use my existing analog transformer for powering them. If they were converted to digital, in addition to decoders, would I need to get dedicated 60055 for powering the switches, or can they still run off analog transformers in this case? Since they are power with a transformer independent of the MS2 track power, I don't see why not, but maybe there is something I have missed here?

Thanks again for helping me with this, I know it's pretty basic.
Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 03 February 2012 15:08:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,266
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
60055 (60va Transformer). This one is optional, only if I need more power than the 36w included with MS2.
The 36 VA stabilized power supply is better than any (unstabilized) transformer. You'll never get more than 36 VA from an MS2.

It depends on the turnout decoders where power for turnouts comes from. Some decoders allow power from "analogue" transformers, others don't.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline rbw993  
#15 Posted : 03 February 2012 15:25:39(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 956
The Viessmann 5211 allow power from an independent source. I use them myself and have had no problems.
Offline Mannym  
#16 Posted : 04 February 2012 03:08:21(UTC)
Mannym


Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
-Transformer (optional, if I required more power than the basic MS2 power supply)
No, MS2 can't give more power than the power supply that comes with it.

Märklin offer no boosters for use with MS2. Delta Controls and some non-Märklin boosters can still be used. I suggest to cross that bridge when you get to it (if you decide to go the MS2 way).


I am in a similar situation as BrandonVA, and want to make sure I understand before I go out and buy stuff: if I want to convert to digital gradually, and only want to control the 3-4 digital locos simultaneously as a start, will the bare minimum required configuration be:

- 60653 Mobile Station
- 60113 Connector Box
- 66361 36 VA Switched Power Pack?

Thanks.
Offline Shintaro  
#17 Posted : 04 February 2012 05:48:46(UTC)
Shintaro

Australia   
Joined: 23/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: Campbelltown
I operate my turnouts in the analogue manner from the power output of the track box.

Red wire from track box to Yellow of turnout.
Brown to selection box, and the normal blue/green to turnout.
Works well.
Offline Shintaro  
#18 Posted : 04 February 2012 05:53:09(UTC)
Shintaro

Australia   
Joined: 23/09/2011(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: Campbelltown
Originally Posted by: Mannym Go to Quoted Post

I am in a similar situation as BrandonVA, and want to make sure I understand before I go out and buy stuff: if I want to convert to digital gradually, and only want to control the 3-4 digital locos simultaneously as a start, will the bare minimum required configuration be:

- 60653 Mobile Station
- 60113 Connector Box
- 66361 36 VA Switched Power Pack?

Thanks.



Yes you are correct. Same setup I got.
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 04 February 2012 08:31:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,266
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Mannym Go to Quoted Post
- 60653 Mobile Station
- 60113 Connector Box
- 66361 36 VA Switched Power Pack
This is all you need (as Shintaro already confirmed).
On eBay you may be able to get these three items in a set from an unbundled starterset.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Mannym  
#20 Posted : 05 February 2012 10:49:17(UTC)
Mannym


Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Mannym Go to Quoted Post
- 60653 Mobile Station
- 60113 Connector Box
- 66361 36 VA Switched Power Pack
This is all you need (as Shintaro already confirmed).
On eBay you may be able to get these three items in a set from an unbundled starterset.

Thanks guys. Now all I have to think about is my budget!
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