Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#1 Posted : 01 February 2011 21:57:00(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
As some of you may know i have a rather small layout,1.9 x 1.2m, all anologue, and M track. I have 2 circuits, using 2 x 6647 trafos (recently purchased, the white ones); about 16 turnouts (electric), and 10 uncouplers, using the old 7072 and 7211 switch boxes.
Most of my M track is very old, and not in a good state, and rusting badly/quickly here close to the sea-back in the "old days", when very young, i used emery to clean the track, with resulting permanent damage! So now I am contemplating going C track, to stop the bad connections/power and voltage drop I have in certain areas.
What would be the easiest way to convert to digital? Could I use the white transformers? (What other controllers would I need?- I have access to a 6021 Control unit; does this connect to the white transformer?).How are the turnouts controlled? Could I still use the same wiring to the control boxes? - or is there a way to keep the M- track turnouts and try connecting them to the C track, or is this not really feasible?
Excuse the very basic questions-I really don't know much/anything? about digital control!, and would appreciate some help.
I have been told that most of my locos can be easily converted to digital, such as the 3003, 3009, 3021....is this so....and is there a "basic" digital conversion, compared to what some folk have told me is a "full house" digital conversion?
(Also, what exactly is a 5-pole motor?)
M track/soon to be c track Joe?!?!
Offline intruder  
#2 Posted : 01 February 2011 22:59:22(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
A lot of interesting questions, Joe

6021 is a perfect way to enter the digital world with your layout, basically without doing any changes except for good electric connections all the way.

You may use one of your transformers to feed 6021 with power (yellow and brown wires/connectors) and disconnect the red wires from your current tranformers and connect them to the red output on 6021. One of the brown connectors on 6021 must be connected to the tracks as well.
Use the other transformer to feed switches etc.

This way you may control the locomotives digitally and keep the "manual" control of you switches.

The Motorola format digital signals emitted by the 6021 works well with common ground (brown wire/connectors) with the AC current from a Märklin transformer.
Digital control of switches etc. requires an additional keyboard connected to the 6021 as well as decoders for the switches.

The old type Märklin motors are 3-star motors, which may run both on DC and AC. It has a 3-pole rotor. The magnetic field is privided by a electro-magnet and varies with the input voltage. The electro-magnet is connected in series with the rotor. Low speed characteristics is maybe not the best.
The electric magnet of the 3-star motor may be replaced by a permanent magnet. If so, it runs on DC only.

The 5-star motor normally has a magnetic field provided by a permant magnet and a 5-pole rotor. This gives better low speed torque and smoother running, as well as lower electric consumption. With the permanent magnet the motor runs only on DC voltage. The DC voltage is normally provided by the digital decoder in the locomotive.

The traditional 3-star locomotives can quite easily be converted to digital with a decoder meant for this motor type, e.g. the Märklin Delta decoder 66031 or 66032. Also other companies offer decoders for this purpose. This is probably the cheapest way.

Full conversion normally means replacement of the motor (to 5-star or only the magnet to the permanant type) and maybe a more advanced decoder.

You can find some examples on my web site.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
Offline David Dewar  
#3 Posted : 01 February 2011 23:09:01(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
You could get a start set with a MS2. This gives you a good controller and transformer and some C track. You can control the turnouts with a decoder under the C track with no wiring and switch the turnouts using the MS2.
You can of course use a 6021 but for turnouts you would need extra control boxes ( memory etc)
Start set will also give you a helpful booklet.
This will be more expensive but could save in the long run. There is a vast difference between M and C track in both running and electrical connection etc.

dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Darren W  
#4 Posted : 01 February 2011 23:11:14(UTC)
Darren W

Canada   
Joined: 01/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 643
Location: Alberta
I think it would be too much hassle to keep the m-track switches and change the rest to C-track. Unless you made your own transition pieces it really isn't possible. The C-track switches are nice and work great. They don't come with the electric solenoid so that adds to the cost (except for the double slip switch). I think you would be able to remove a m-track switch and replace it with a C-track switch/solenoid and use the existing wires and control boxes making it simple.

If you want to take it to the next level get a 6040 keyboard to add to your 6021 and then you could get decoders for all your switches (more cost) and then do away with your control boxes. The decoder would get the signal from the track and operate the switch using the track power. All wiring is contained within the C-track switch roadbed.

I hope this helps and doesn't make it more confusing.Blink

Good luck
Darren
Offline kbvrod  
#5 Posted : 02 February 2011 00:54:40(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Joe,all,
Welcome to the asylum!BigGrin
First off,your alright!Condition your M-track and still use your control boxes as is.Run your trains and have fun with that.Enjoy.
A 6021 would put you right into digital control.Your loks,we can work on.POC,or Piece Of Cake!
Stay with us lad,we are here to help.

Dr DirtWoot



Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
As some of you may know i have a rather small layout,1.9 x 1.2m, all anologue, and M track. I have 2 circuits, using 2 x 6647 trafos (recently purchased, the white ones); about 16 turnouts (electric), and 10 uncouplers, using the old 7072 and 7211 switch boxes.
Most of my M track is very old, and not in a good state, and rusting badly/quickly here close to the sea-back in the "old days", when very young, i used emery to clean the track, with resulting permanent damage! So now I am contemplating going C track, to stop the bad connections/power and voltage drop I have in certain areas.
What would be the easiest way to convert to digital? Could I use the white transformers? (What other controllers would I need?- I have access to a 6021 Control unit; does this connect to the white transformer?).How are the turnouts controlled? Could I still use the same wiring to the control boxes? - or is there a way to keep the M- track turnouts and try connecting them to the C track, or is this not really feasible?
Excuse the very basic questions-I really don't know much/anything? about digital control!, and would appreciate some help.
I have been told that most of my locos can be easily converted to digital, such as the 3003, 3009, 3021....is this so....and is there a "basic" digital conversion, compared to what some folk have told me is a "full house" digital conversion?
(Also, what exactly is a 5-pole motor?)
M track/soon to be c track Joe?!?!

Offline Joseph Meiring  
#6 Posted : 02 February 2011 20:22:56(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Thanks everyone for the help! 6021 on its way, and converting some locos to digital next. Having only had M track for the last 52 years, its gonna take some time learning C track geometry!
Thanks again for the advice Dave, Darren, Svein, and Dr Dirt!!
M track Joe
Offline Webmaster  
#7 Posted : 02 February 2011 21:08:56(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
Nothing wrong with the good ole M-track, sometimes wish I hadn't sold it all...

Take it easy, grow slowly into the digital world by converting one loco and run it with the 6021 (separated from the analog track, of course) and take it from there... Step by step, one loco, 2 locos, then try some turnout digitally controlled and so on...

The change is (beside the hardware bits) in the mental area - it's not voltage level controlled by a knob that controls the speed, it's "command" driven by digital commands...

Simplified wiring is a benefit of digital, since you can use the digital to control locos and turnouts in the same current circuit without having to separate sections with power isolation and separate transformers powering them...

Since we have so many digitally seasoned members, I'm sure you will get a lot of good advice on the journey towards digital on your layout...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline Ian555  
#8 Posted : 02 February 2011 21:21:39(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Joe,

Let me be the first to say, I'm sorry you are moving away from M track.

At least with plastic track, most of it won't rust.

We are travelling in different directions, I have started buying solid 3rd rail M track, to run my old analog Loco's on.

Don't get me wrong, I think all my digital Loco's are great, but, and for me it's a big but, I'm a metal Loco / metal track kind of guy.

Enjoy your journey into the digital world. ThumpUp

Ian.
Offline Webmaster  
#9 Posted : 02 February 2011 21:55:50(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,161
The great thing with M-track is that you can use it also in digital, really no need to get new C track due to a decision to go digital - rather only if you plan to buy new rolling stuff from other manufacturers in the DC camp...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline David Dewar  
#10 Posted : 02 February 2011 23:26:31(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Not sure about M track. I did use it years ago but C track or K if you wish to ballast is way out in front for running and with C you can put decoders under the ballast and wiring also.
I also used the good old 6021 but again this is old and no longer can give anything like the facilities of a modern controller.
At the end of the day it is down to cash and what you want to spend on a digital layout. Converting locos can also be expensive but they can still be run on an analogue part of a layout kept separate from digital.
We have quite a few members who use M track and enjoy it but if you are starting a new layout and wil require to buy further track then C or k is the better way to go for trouble free running and without the noise. (I know some like the noise with M)
I still think a cheaper and practical way into digital where a layout can be started without any problems is a Marklin start set with a MS2.

dave PS please dont make this a track argument as at present only C and K is available new and M is for those who have it already or want to buy secondhand track.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#11 Posted : 03 February 2011 21:41:32(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Originally Posted by: Webmaster Go to Quoted Post
Nothing wrong with the good ole M-track, sometimes wish I hadn't sold it all...

Take it easy, grow slowly into the digital world by converting one loco and run it with the 6021 (separated from the analog track, of course) and take it from there... Step by step, one loco, 2 locos, then try some turnout digitally controlled and so on...

The change is (beside the hardware bits) in the mental area - it's not voltage level controlled by a knob that controls the speed, it's "command" driven by digital commands...

Simplified wiring is a benefit of digital, since you can use the digital to control locos and turnouts in the same current circuit without having to separate sections with power isolation and separate transformers powering them...

Since we have so many digitally seasoned members, I'm sure you will get a lot of good advice on the journey towards digital on your layout...

Thanx for the words of wisdom Juhan! I aim to take it slowly, very slowly!
Joe
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#12 Posted : 03 February 2011 21:49:00(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Originally Posted by: Ian555 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Joe,

Let me be the first to say, I'm sorry you are moving away from M track.

At least with plastic track, most of it won't rust.

We are travelling in different directions, I have started buying solid 3rd rail M track, to run my old analog Loco's on.

Don't get me wrong, I think all my digital Loco's are great, but, and for me it's a big but, I'm a metal Loco / metal track kind of guy.

Enjoy your journey into the digital world. ThumpUp

Ian.

Thanks Ian - I aim to keep the "best" M track and turnouts for a long time still! After so many years there's no way I can go cold turkey! I have too many great childhood (and adult!)memories of that great look and sound of M......Looking at the geometry of C track, I think I will be able to build an outer circuit of C only, and will run digital on it, and keep the analogue separate, much like I think you have?
many thanks, Joe
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#13 Posted : 03 February 2011 21:59:44(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Not sure about M track. I did use it years ago but C track or K if you wish to ballast is way out in front for running and with C you can put decoders under the ballast and wiring also.
I also used the good old 6021 but again this is old and no longer can give anything like the facilities of a modern controller.
At the end of the day it is down to cash and what you want to spend on a digital layout. Converting locos can also be expensive but they can still be run on an analogue part of a layout kept separate from digital.
We have quite a few members who use M track and enjoy it but if you are starting a new layout and wil require to buy further track then C or k is the better way to go for trouble free running and without the noise. (I know some like the noise with M)
I still think a cheaper and practical way into digital where a layout can be started without any problems is a Marklin start set with a MS2.

dave PS please dont make this a track argument as at present only C and K is available new and M is for those who have it already or want to buy secondhand track.

Thanks for your input Dave, it's valued as I'm a total a newbie in the world of digital! As I have access to a 6021 this will have to suffice for a while, and as Juhan recommends, I'll prob only convert 1 loco at a time!!
but I am looking forward to trying out new C track - I see the R1 and R2 curves are similar to the 5100 and 5200 series M curves, so I should be able to change over quite easily........now if I can convert/convince the powers that be that I need more room for those very nice realistic looking R5 curves!!!
thanks again for all the help, Joe
Offline David Dewar  
#14 Posted : 03 February 2011 23:18:07(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Hi Joe. Your thoughts on running both your M track and C track is ideal. This allows you to run your older locos while you are converting and also have C track for digital running. I would stil say though that a MS2 controller for your digital area would be good and well worth buying.

dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline kbvrod  
#15 Posted : 04 February 2011 01:19:13(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Hi Joe,all,
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
Thanks everyone for the help! 6021 on its way, and converting some locos to digital next. Having only had M track for the last 52 years, its gonna take some time learning C track geometry!
Thanks again for the advice Dave, Darren, Svein, and Dr Dirt!!
M track Joe


Forget these wankers!LOL Kidding,...Good advise from them all.
,
Joe,if you have a table,piece of wood or floor set up what you have and run trains many things will be revealed,like getting the pot stirring,...
Then do us all a favor(?) ask some more questions.

Dr D
Offline Joseph Meiring  
#16 Posted : 04 February 2011 14:15:55(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Hi Joe. Your thoughts on running both your M track and C track is ideal. This allows you to run your older locos while you are converting and also have C track for digital running. I would stil say though that a MS2 controller for your digital area would be good and well worth buying.

dave

Right Dave, here goes!....what exactly is a MS2??? how does it compare with a 6021?...told you I'ma real newbie!!
Offline David Dewar  
#17 Posted : 04 February 2011 15:06:26(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,332
Location: Scotland
Hi Joe. Firstly do you have the Marklin catalogue. This gives a fair bit of info on the digital control systems.
The MS2 is a digital controller and will also switch turnouts and signals (you will need a small decoder under the C track for this but there is no wiring required. In time should you wish you can connect your MS2 to the Marklin Central Station which has a larger screen and more types of control is available (the Central Station is expensive so no need to buy right away for a small layout.
If you use the 6021 (this is now obsolete and no longer made by Marklin) you can control your locos but not turnouts etc which will need the addition of a keyboard and memory. Also the keyboard and memory are obsolete so would need to be bought second hand at a cost similar to a new MS2.
I still say that a digital starter set with MS2 and C track will give you everything you need for the digital part of your layout and you will have no problem following the booklet that comes with it.
If you feel the cost is too much then to be honest I would advise you stick with analogue but at least a starter set will give you all you want in one package and will allow you to set up both an analogue and digital layout.
There may be cheaper ways using what you have but it will not be as good and you may find things do not work as you would expect in which case there will be help here from the members who live in the past (kidding guys).
Try to visit a dealer if you can or find one close by that does mail order and is prepared to help.
Takt the plunge and spend a bit of cash on a starter set is my advice as I know this way you will not go wrong.

dave
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Ian555  
#18 Posted : 04 February 2011 18:15:25(UTC)
Ian555

Scotland   
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC)
Posts: 20,235
Location: Scotland
Hi Joe,

Digital and analog on the one layout, that's the way to go.

Just remember that the tracks have to be kept totally seperate from each other, that will be easy when using C and M track.

As usual, Dave is making a lot of sense, and I agree, a small starter set with a MS2 is the way to get into digital railroading.

Enjoy the journey.

Ian.

Offline Joseph Meiring  
#19 Posted : 04 February 2011 23:24:25(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Thanks Dave and Ian, I got hold of "old" 1998/99 and 2008/09 catalogs, and can now see how things have progressed from the 6021 to the mobile and central stations...wow!
With your explanations and some serious reading things are starting to fall in place! I see the merit of a starter set - you get C track, loco, coaches and of course the MS2 - I met up with an ex dealer a while ago, who still has contacts for importing M into South Africa, (and I know he still has lots of new c track for sale), so I will certainly be chatting to him soonest, and then dropping HUGE hints to the bank manager as my birthday approacheth!!
In the meantime, this weekend will be spent cleaning and sorting out the best of my M track!
Thanks again guys, you have been a HUGE help!
Joe
Offline Dreadnought  
#20 Posted : 05 February 2011 17:19:21(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
I have M track, and went digital just over a year and a half ago. I got a mobile station 1 (MS 1). I got hooked. A year ago November I went all out and bought the Central Station 2 (CS 2). I now have the MS 1 plugged into the CS as a separate controller. I am very happy with it. The MS 1 fell to the floor, as a result the screen is hard to read, but it still works. Lesson there about not leaving it too close to the edge.

The advice I got was do not let analog touch the digital. I was going to leave the catenary analog, and have the track digital. Rather than risk a short between the two I went analog only.

A friend in the States has two separate systems one analog, one digital, though on the same bench. They do not touch. Analog is the inner layout, digital the outer. He uses C track.

My impression is that C track runs more smoothly. M track needs more cleaning, age and rust no doubt. I like the noise of tin plate coaches on M track. It takes me back to childhood. I have bought a lot of M track quite cheaply on ebay, and used at dealers.
Users browsing this topic
Similar Topics
Going digital? (Digital)
by BrandonVA 02/02/2012 16:36:09(UTC)
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.630 seconds.