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Offline Seetal  
#1 Posted : 28 December 2004 03:13:03(UTC)
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Seetal


Joined: 12/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 548
Location: Maryland, USA
Hi all,

Very basic question but better ask than fry something.

I received a Marklin grade crossing for Christmas. But I am unsure on the electrical hook-ups, the diagrams are a bit unclear...at least to me.

I use C track and run digitally with a 6021 and a single transformer 6001. Only run 2 or 3 trains (maybe be with lights on the locos) and I have no other items (signals, etc) needing power.

Do I need another transformer to power the crossing (this is what the manual indicates)?

The ground (Brown) connection is hooked up to the contact track, but does it matter which end of the track? The end close to the crossing or the end more distant from the crossing? And the other end of the brown wire is hooked to brown on the transformer.

The yellow wiring is easily understood. Transformer to primary crossing contact, then another yellow wire goes from the primary contact to the secondary contact on the other side of the track.

I assume there is no hook up to the 6021 controller itself.

Perhaps part of my ignorance is how contact tracks are meant to work.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

John
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Offline Lars Westerlind  
#2 Posted : 28 December 2004 10:19:18(UTC)
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Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Seetal
<br />Hi all,

Very basic question but better ask than fry something.

I received a Marklin grade crossing for Christmas. But I am unsure on the electrical hook-ups, the diagrams are a bit unclear...at least to me.

I use C track and run digitally with a 6021 and a single transformer 6001. Only run 2 or 3 trains (maybe be with lights on the locos) and I have no other items (signals, etc) needing power.

Do I need another transformer to power the crossing (this is what the manual indicates)?

The ground (Brown) connection is hooked up to the contact track, but does it matter which end of the track? The end close to the crossing or the end more distant from the crossing? And the other end of the brown wire is hooked to brown on the transformer.

The yellow wiring is easily understood. Transformer to primary crossing contact, then another yellow wire goes from the primary contact to the secondary contact on the other side of the track.

I assume there is no hook up to the 6021 controller itself.

Perhaps part of my ignorance is how contact tracks are meant to work.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

John

Hello John,
with the 6021 you may use the same transformer, take the yellow from your 6001. Please note that this does not count for Mobile Station. And that it's a good idea to have a separate trasformer anyway, the 6001 has limited power.
The brown is connected just as before together with the red from 6021 to track. No extra broun needed for the level crossing. But if you have a separate transformer, that transformers brown must go to the same 6021 brown.

The tracks must be turned correctly; the blue arrows on same side, and the mid section must also be turned correctly, don't remember now how this is checked.

The function is as this: the rails are isolated; one of the rails (on the blue arrow side) serve as ground for the level crossing. When a train passes, current flows from yellow, through lamps, to this isolated rail, through train axles to the other rail, and back to transformer brown.

Regards,
Lars
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Offline Tony  
#3 Posted : 28 December 2004 13:18:49(UTC)
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Tony

South Africa   
Joined: 18/09/2004(UTC)
Posts: 726
Location: Cape Town
Hi John
I also installed one of these recently.
Further to what Lars has mentioned, you may want to extend the distance between the actual crossing and the contact tracks (On the incoming and outgoing sides of the crossing), so that the booms operate some time before the train gets to the crossing.
To do this you just need to place the contact track(s) a number of track pieces away from the crossing and then cut the connecting bits(two cuts on each piece of track) on the underside of the rails so as to isolate the two rails - if you know what I mean. I think the little leaflet/manual explains all of this.


Also I operate the supply of the crossing with about a 12V DC supply (Positive to the yellow wires of the crossing and negative to the rails/brown.) The reason for this is that the AC supply makes an annoying buzzing sound - in fact all my electomagnetic accessories are supplied via DC.
Now I understand there are all sorts of issues about mixing power supplies when an MS is used which has been extensively discussed in other threads, but I do not use MS so always have the -ve DC supply and the brown connected.
Regards Tony
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Offline Seetal  
#4 Posted : 28 December 2004 17:04:45(UTC)
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Seetal


Joined: 12/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 548
Location: Maryland, USA
Hi Lars and Tony,

No MS operation only 6021.

So I had a quick bash and everything works fine, thanks.

And yes the barrier is very fast and I will want to extend the distance some day. At the moment I do not have an installed layout, track goes on to the carpet one day and is taken up a few days later. And then I put down another, different layout. I do not have a lot of track at the moment so I do not want to cut any rails until I can set these aside and use them only for the level crossing.

I noticed the buzzing. Maybe I will get a DC transformer. I take it there are no problems with an IB and mixing power supplies? I do not have one but am more likely to get that than the upcoming Central Station.

So Lars explained how it works..thank you. If one of the rails is serving as ground does this meant that the train is actually a 2 railer at this point? And if so is the slider not important? I am guessing this is incorrect since why would the track in the set have center studs.

John
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Offline Lars Westerlind  
#5 Posted : 28 December 2004 22:24:48(UTC)
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Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Seetal
<br />Hi Lars and Tony,

...
So Lars explained how it works..thank you. If one of the rails is serving as ground does this meant that the train is actually a 2 railer at this point? And if so is the slider not important? I am guessing this is incorrect since why would the track in the set have center studs.

John


Well,
yes and no.
Center studs are used as ever to power the loco. The non-isolated rail is the return conductor for this conductor.

Othervise put: there are two circuits, which share common ground. The digital cirtuit is delivered by the 6021 red, through center studs, and returned by rails/rail to 6021 brown. The crossing op current comes with yellow cable from the trannsformer, and further as I described in my last post.

Regards,
Lars
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Offline Seetal  
#6 Posted : 30 December 2004 22:24:20(UTC)
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Seetal


Joined: 12/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 548
Location: Maryland, USA
Hi Lars,

Now I get it, thank you. I was fixed on there being 1 circuit.

1 thing I have noted with the crossing set, is that I get flickering of the lights and barrier depending on the engine or car passing over the contact tracks. Is this typical? Let me explain.

I have an E40 from a starter set (it is a high efficiency digital engine with 4 axles, 2 axles powered). When it approaches the contact area slider first, the barriers go down and the lights go on without a flicker. Exactly as expected. However, as the loco leaves the crossing the lights flicker and the barrier quivers (poor electrical contact). As I moved the loco very slowly I observed the following

When the slider and 2 axles above the slider (these are the axles through which the circuit is made)are in the contact area the lights are solid no flickering. When the slider and those 2 axles leave then I get the flickering. Finally the lights go out and the barriers goes up when the final 2 axles (not involved in completing a circuit) leave the area.

I noticed similar behaviour with 2 freight cars. At the end of the train they caused this flickering. When I passed just the freight car through the contact area (no loco) I mainly get the barrier to go down but with flickering. So I pressed the freight car down and passed it through. No flickers.

I then took my Seetal loco and it had no problems. It has 6 axles and all are powered (complete a circuit).

So it seems that the wheels have sometihng to do with the poor contact/circuit. But I do not understand why this should be. Is it possible that the wheels have non-conductive spots?

John
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Offline Lars Westerlind  
#7 Posted : 31 December 2004 00:25:41(UTC)
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Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Seetal
<br />Hi Lars,

Now I get it, thank you. I was fixed on there being 1 circuit.

1 thing I have noted with the crossing set, is that I get flickering of the lights and barrier depending on the engine or car passing over the contact tracks. Is this typical? Let me explain.

I have an E40 from a starter set (it is a high efficiency digital engine with 4 axles, 2 axles powered). When it approaches the contact area slider first, the barriers go down and the lights go on without a flicker. Exactly as expected. However, as the loco leaves the crossing the lights flicker and the barrier quivers (poor electrical contact). As I moved the loco very slowly I observed the following

When the slider and 2 axles above the slider (these are the axles through which the circuit is made)are in the contact area the lights are solid no flickering. When the slider and those 2 axles leave then I get the flickering. Finally the lights go out and the barriers goes up when the final 2 axles (not involved in completing a circuit) leave the area.

I noticed similar behaviour with 2 freight cars. At the end of the train they caused this flickering. When I passed just the freight car through the contact area (no loco) I mainly get the barrier to go down but with flickering. So I pressed the freight car down and passed it through. No flickers.

I then took my Seetal loco and it had no problems. It has 6 axles and all are powered (complete a circuit).

So it seems that the wheels have sometihng to do with the poor contact/circuit. But I do not understand why this should be. Is it possible that the wheels have non-conductive spots?

John

Certainly.
Look at the boogie without slider; I guess they have rubber tyres! In order to preveet slipping.

Unfortunately the same might happen for cars, they are often to light to give good contact.

If you find this too annoying, you have to do it differently, using a relay, for example:

1. Remove the isolation tracks, the ones with the blue arraws, in order to make the crossing permanently grounded.
2. Insert one contact track at each end, where the crossing should be activated/deactivated, the ones which are activated by the slider.
3. Get a bi stale relay, 7244, of Viessmann 5551/5552, and connect it so that when a train goes towards the crossing, the relay goes 'on' regardless, of the end, and when it goes from, the relay goes 'off'.
4. Connect the yellow to the relay, so that when the relay is on, the crossing gets AC through the yellow cable.

Regards,
Lars
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Offline xxup  
#8 Posted : 31 December 2004 00:45:09(UTC)
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xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,586
Location: Australia
Yes - my crossing has always flickered.. Another way that worked for me (or rather shifted the problem furthe down the track) was to extend the contact track so more wagons are providing the circuit path.. But the flickering does come back toward the end of the contact area as the number of cars still in the area reduces...

Lars, a 6084 could work here too??
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline Lars Westerlind  
#9 Posted : 31 December 2004 12:35:23(UTC)
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Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by xxup
...
Lars, a 6084 could work here too??


For manual operation, yes. But if you have Lissy installed, in order to make the train whistle when approaching, you could as well activate the crossing that way... Smile

More seriously, I don't think k84 is appropriate in 'normal' operation.
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Offline PeFu  
#10 Posted : 31 December 2004 13:16:41(UTC)
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PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,288
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by xxup
<br />Lars, a 6084 could work here too??

I use a Viessmann "6084" (k84), in combination with Railroad & Co PC software and 3 contact tracks A-B-C (providing s88 feedback):

[8] Contact tracks A and C: k84 "off"
[8] Contact track B: k84 "on"

Works very good.

Cool Peter
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube Channel | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold
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Offline Seetal  
#11 Posted : 31 December 2004 16:45:44(UTC)
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Seetal


Joined: 12/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 548
Location: Maryland, USA
Hi all,

I did extend the length of the crossing/contact track. And as Adrian predicted at then end of the train you get flickering.

I will bear in mind the relay solution for the future. Though I am disappointed that the system does not work when bought as is (and it not inexpensive in the US).

Thanks again for the explanation, I have learned a lot.

John
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Offline Tony  
#12 Posted : 31 December 2004 17:37:50(UTC)
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Tony

South Africa   
Joined: 18/09/2004(UTC)
Posts: 726
Location: Cape Town
Hi John

Not to drag this topic out further but what I do to eliminate the flickering, which as you say is very frustrating is:

As I mentioned above I use a DC supply and I have added a largish capacitor( about 220MFD) across the supply to the crossing- so the stored energy in the cap. keeps the booms and lamps supplied for the short time that the connection across the axles is broken ( which causes the flickering.)

This has solved the flickering to my satisfaction.
Regards Tony
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Offline Seetal  
#13 Posted : 31 December 2004 20:01:48(UTC)
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Seetal


Joined: 12/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 548
Location: Maryland, USA
HiTony,
How do you add the capacitor, between the transformer and the crossing? So the yellow wire goes from transformer to capacitor to crossing? I imagine I can easily pick on of these up at a local electrical shop. but I want to be sure of the wiring before I do so.

Just to highlight my ignorance of electricity in general I presume that this solution will not work for an AC power supply.

Thanks.

John
John
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Offline Tony  
#14 Posted : 01 January 2005 11:34:33(UTC)
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Tony

South Africa   
Joined: 18/09/2004(UTC)
Posts: 726
Location: Cape Town
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Seetal
<br />HiTony,
How do you add the capacitor, between the transformer and the crossing? So the yellow wire goes from transformer to capacitor to crossing? I imagine I can easily pick on of these up at a local electrical shop. but I want to be sure of the wiring before I do so.

Just to highlight my ignorance of electricity in general I presume that this solution will not work for an AC power supply.

Thanks.

John
John


Hi John
Basically the capacitor must be across the load - ie across both lamp/boom mechanisims. So the capacitor only charges up from the DC supply when the train is bridgeing the contact track section.
In fact since you raised this topic I have been messing around with different values and I have increased the value of the capacitor quite a bit to 3300MFD (16Volt)this improves the effect and also results in the lamps fading out when the train exits the section.

As you say, this will not work with AC power and you could get one of these capacitors( 3300MFD, 16VDC, electrolytic) at any electronic store. Note they are polarised so have to be connected correctly.

As I mentioned I am using a 6021 controller -so I am not sure about any impacts with the MS or other controller makes.
I have done a quick, rough drawing of the wiring:

UserPostedImage

Edited by moderator 11 January 2011 16:38:43(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards Tony
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Offline Lars Westerlind  
#15 Posted : 01 January 2005 19:45:50(UTC)
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Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Good idea Tony,
sorry I didn't think of DC and the capaciatator myself.

However, I would suggest a very minor change. When DC is introduced to our Märklin layouts, I find it more useful to use negative DC. That is, let the + of the DC be the ground. Normally it doesn't matter, but there are some devices on my layout that need it that way. Which of course, means that the capaciatator must be reversed.

Regards,
Lars
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