My BR 18.4 Loco hangs after few minutes operation

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berdos		#1 Posted : 08 May 2011 17:32:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2003(UTC) Posts: 61 Location: Athens, Greece		Hi all, my express steam locomotive BR 18.4 part of 2004 digital starter set hangs after 5-6 minutes of operation. It just stops and a strange constant noise/sound is heard. I press the STOP button on the 6021 control box then the GO button but after few seconds it hangs again and the same noise is heard .I tried both directions and different routes but problem persists. The second locomotive of the set (E40 electric locomotive) operates fine and the problem with BR 18.4 remains even if the locomotive runs alone without other locomotive on the tracks. I cannot see any gap between the tracks and the connection with 6021 seems OK. Both locomotives had very rare usage all these years and I didn't perform any maintenance. Any idea? tnx!
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DasBert33		#2 Posted : 08 May 2011 18:18:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,245		This can be a number of things, but I suspect overheating of the decoder due to worn brushes or overoiling(despite you saying that the loco did not run a lot). You did not (over)oil the loco recently? You can try to open up the loco, disassemble the motor and give everything a good clean. I use smoke oil and earsticks for that. Pay special attention to the collector (the copper surface where the brushes touch). Make sure that is clean and oil-free. When the collector is removed check that the (cog)wheels can turn easily without resistance. Replace the brushes with new ones if they are worn or too greasy. After cleaning reoil, but only apply very little. One drop on the cogwheels and one drop on the motor axle is usually enough Maybe a longshot but please check the color of the collector. The blue ones are known for their high brushes wear, I had a similar case with one of my own locos. Bert

2 users liked this useful post by DasBert33		kimballthurlow, berdos
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kimballthurlow		#3 Posted : 09 May 2011 00:26:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,669 Location: Brisbane, Australia		Hi Nikos, It would be good to try what Bert has recommended. I had a very similar experience with the same set. In this case it was the E40 that showed the symptoms. I have no capability in checking possible issues, so I sent the loco direct to Marklin repair service in Goppingen, from Australia. They repaired it beautifully, and it now runs perfectly. I got the loco back in 2 months, and it cost 50Euros plus postage. I had to send the money by international transfer. But I did tell them first to allow to spend up to 150Euros if needed. regards Kimball
		HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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jmcveigh		#4 Posted : 09 May 2011 15:58:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/10/2003(UTC) Posts: 26 Location: Butler, Maryland		I think that Bert has identified the likely culprit. It is very possible that carbon debris has accumulated in the gaps of the drum commutator. This can cause the motor to demand excessive current from the decoder. When cleaning the commutator, use a toothpick or other relatively soft tool to clean out the crevices between the commutator segments. I had one five-pole rotor that was causing excessive wear of the brushes (and operating noise). I was able to improve the situation by using a very fine grade of sandpaper to chamfer the edges of the commutator gaps. That reduces the wear of the brushes and also quieted the Loko. John
		J.J. McVeigh

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berdos		#5 Posted : 09 May 2011 17:01:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2003(UTC) Posts: 61 Location: Athens, Greece		tnx all for your prompt and detailed feedback. I'll let you know the outcome.
		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato


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REUBEN		#6 Posted : 09 May 2011 17:50:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/07/2010(UTC) Posts: 71 Location: SOUTH AFRICA		hi Nikos i have the same set same problem but with my E40.so i took it to the dealer last week.did not receive it back yet.if i had seen this thread earlier i would have tried the remedies the guys prescribe.curious to hear if you solve the problem.


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berdos		#7 Posted : 10 May 2011 23:00:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2003(UTC) Posts: 61 Location: Athens, Greece		Operation started. 1) Naked loco. https://picasaweb.google...pcx2Er_Q?feat=directlink 2) Open the motor. https://picasaweb.google...pcx2Er_Q?feat=directlink 3)Clean Up... https://picasaweb.google...pcx2Er_Q?feat=directlink https://picasaweb.google...pcx2Er_Q?feat=directlink 4)Some oil only on specific points. https://picasaweb.google...pcx2Er_Q?feat=directlink 5) My chief engineer https://picasaweb.google...pcx2Er_Q?feat=directlink Operation Suspended. 6) I have to wait for Antonis to assist me to insert back and hold the 2 coals. Between them we have to put the motor and then screw the whole motor to the loco. This seems the most difficult part of the operation. https://picasaweb.google...pcx2Er_Q?feat=directlink https://picasaweb.google...pcx2Er_Q?feat=directlink A more details picture of motors and coal are at the end of the following page https://www.marklin-user...ml/service/SEmotors.html I'll let you know the status when (if) we finish with the coals. I'll appreciate if you have any hint on this.
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berdos		#8 Posted : 12 May 2011 00:18:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2003(UTC) Posts: 61 Location: Athens, Greece		Finally we put the coals and we started the testing. The loco operates fine without problem for 15 minutes. The acceleration/braking seems also OK. However, I heard a constant strange noise. After some investigation we realized than the noise comes from the motor. But why? The problem was that we didn't tight the 2 screws of the motor. After more screwing the noise was more loud. I started to relax and tight the screws and finally I managed to have a motor with minimal mechanic noise. Now my loco runs smoothly but on very low speed the annoying noise appears again. I decide to put some more oil but it was a disaster. The loco didn't move again and it seems that I over-oil it. Now I have to reopen it, clean up and let it dry for few hours/days . Hopefully, the additional oil on some sensors caused this problem.
		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato


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DasBert33		#9 Posted : 12 May 2011 19:29:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,245		Looking at your pictures, are you sure you are oiling it the right way? I don't know whether the WD-40 oil is suitable, others might know this, I use Marklin oil only. Some other oils might damage paints. But anyway if you use the spraycan directly on the motor/gears you will definately overoil it. The loco only needs very little oil. Apply drops with a toothpick or needle. The noise is probably caused by the motor axle (not the gears). You can apply a drop of oil on each side of the motoraxle, but make sure the oil doesnt get on the collector. (copper part of the motor) BTW you can mount/screw the motor before putting the coals in their place. Then mounting the motor becomes easy. 1. Just place the copper spring next to the hole intended for the coals with a screwdriver. 2. Remount the motor 3. Place the brushes/coals and put the springs on them. Bert


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berdos		#10 Posted : 12 May 2011 20:06:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2003(UTC) Posts: 61 Location: Athens, Greece		Originally Posted by: DasBert33 Looking at your pictures, are you sure you are oiling it the right way? I don't know whether the WD-40 oil is suitable, others might know this, I use Marklin oil only. Some other oils might damage paints. But anyway if you use the spraycan directly on the motor/gears you will definately overoil it. The loco only needs very little oil. Apply drops with a toothpick or needle. The noise is probably caused by the motor axle (not the gears). You can apply a drop of oil on each side of the motoraxle, but make sure the oil doesnt get on the collector. (copper part of the motor) BTW you can mount/screw the motor before putting the coals in their place. Then mounting the motor becomes easy. 1. Just place the copper spring next to the hole intended for the coals with a screwdriver. 2. Remount the motor 3. Place the brushes/coals and put the springs on them. Bert Hi all, Bad News. I cleaned up the whole motor in order to remove any oil drops that could cause the black out of my loco. Every part has been cleaned starting from the motor axle, the coals, all metal parts, the cable connections etc. I put the loco on the rails but it is still dead. The strange thing is that neither the remaining functions (bell, horn, lights) work. I tested all connections with a screwdriver and there is electricity on all parts. In the decoder, in the motor cables, in motor connections and on the wheels. Is this normal? I don't know what else to test/try and I'm blocked. p.s Bert tnx for the tip! tnx
		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato


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berdos		#11 Posted : 16 May 2011 14:19:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2003(UTC) Posts: 61 Location: Athens, Greece		After careful cleaning with cotton buds and compressed air the loco is still dead. Functions are ON and also F!,F2,F3,F4 are ON. No lights, no sound, no moving. I cleaned up the decoder and check the wires. The only worrying thing is that decoder (http://www.jus-kn.de/c91_e.htm) seems overheated after some minutes. I cannot see how the decoder could be affected by the oil, since I applied the oil (spray) only on the motor axle between the brushes. All components are clean and shiny and my concern is that the decoder cannot dispatch the signals from the control unit. Is it burned or I have to reset it? I'll try to identify any short circuit that may cause problem but again I don't understand why the lights are off. However, when I put the loco on the tracks (functions are enabled) the bell rings or the horn whistles. This means that the decoder receives and dispatches successfully the status from the control unit but I cannot reproduce it again through the control unit.
		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato


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zofman		#12 Posted : 16 May 2011 19:41:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 26 Location: Diemen the Netherlands		It looks like the motor is having trouble to rotate. Did you put the magnet with the right side towards you in the motor. The little spikes on the magnet can be in the way and the shield does not connect to the casing and magnet. In this way the axle is placed crooked. try to rotate the motor by hand to feel if there is too much resistance. Good luck Jan
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berdos		#13 Posted : 19 May 2011 08:03:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2003(UTC) Posts: 61 Location: Athens, Greece		Hi all, I found for free the same decoder (60902) and I replaced the current one. The locomotive had again lights, bell and it was able to move smoothly back and forward. However, the loco stopped again after few minutes. It seems that a short circuit burns the decoder again. I assume that this short circuit could come from wheels or from not isolated parts. I have to disassemble all the electric and mechanic components of the loco and clean everything before try again with a new decoder. My dilemma is to buy a cheap Marklin 60902 decoder or to buy a LokSound chip with sound for my BR 18.4? Had you ever put a LokSound chip in this loco and if yes which model? tnx!
		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato


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jeehring		#14 Posted : 19 May 2011 15:13:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		......normally, this decoder (60902) is protected against shorts....and overloads. When short or overload occure, the decoder automatically commutes itself on "secure position" switching power off , all is cut for a while.... A short can be done with almost nothing : small scratch on plastic insulation of a wire is enough , it happens to me one day with an almost invisible scratch of the wire....then , as you put the body in place make sure that there is not any jammed wire making contact with metal parts .....(That's why sometimes a lok works only when the body is removed )


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dntower85		#15 Posted : 19 May 2011 18:40:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,218 Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA		WD-40 is good for cleaning but most will evaporate and there wont be enough oil left for the motor. Some motors have two different screws, if reversed the long screw contacts the gear and can bind the motor.
		DT Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.


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berdos		#16 Posted : 05 June 2011 18:11:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/02/2003(UTC) Posts: 61 Location: Athens, Greece		Hi All, The loco runs smoothly without noise. Before installing a new 60902 decoder (~30euro) I clean ALL parts (wheels, motor, etc) using pure patrol. Then I put new brushes and I tested the motor with a 9V battery for 5minutes. I put oil (Faller) in all mechanic parts and I tested again the loco for 30minutes. I started the installation of the decoder. I used new wires and I was very careful for potential circuits. I used insulating tape on many metal places and specially on the tank. Finally the operation was successful and the loco performs great. tnx all for your posts! Nikos
		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato


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