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Eisenhower		#1 Posted : 09 August 2004 16:18:35(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 432 Location: Midtjylland		Hi Is this the correct way of making multiple power point connections if im going to have more connection points on my layout (see picture) to ensure enough "juice" around my layout ? Also - how do I check where another power point connection is needed ? My idea on how to make more power connection points: PS: It is permitted to laugh
		Steen Digital | C-Track | Epoche II-IV | Railroad & Co. 7.0 Gold | IB 1 | LocoNet
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jorge_vilarrubi		#2 Posted : 09 August 2004 17:36:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2003(UTC) Posts: 655 Location: Buenos Aires,		Hi Eisenhower, it is correct. What I have in my layout is a "bus" all around, a pair of brown/red wires 1,5mm2 feeding the tracks each 1,5m approx. Regards,
		Jorge Vilarrubí Buenos Aires ARGENTINA
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tnx jake		#3 Posted : 09 August 2004 18:08:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 07/11/2002(UTC) Posts: 388 Location: ,		Hi Eisenhower, Yes, that is the correct way. As Jorge points out it is best to run buss wires around the layout and connect feeders to it and the track every four or five feet rather than run each of the feeders back to the transformer. For buss wires I use number 12 copper wire and then solder the feeders to them. The number twelve wire has less resistance and helps get the maximum juice to the feeders. On this forum, unlike some others, no one will laugh at your questions. We are all here to help each other. Jack
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Eisenhower		#4 Posted : 09 August 2004 18:14:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 432 Location: Midtjylland		I forgot to ask - what if I have 2 or more power supplies ? Is the track then going to be split up in sections (isolated from eachother) or can I connect more than one power supply to the same track? If yes to the isolation question what about the digital signal for the train going from section 1 to section 2 - each powered by their own supply ? I use control unit 6021 and 1 power supply 52 VA at the moment but may have to invest in more "juice". It is still permitted to laugh
		Steen Digital | C-Track | Epoche II-IV | Railroad & Co. 7.0 Gold | IB 1 | LocoNet
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Eisenhower		#5 Posted : 09 August 2004 18:20:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 432 Location: Midtjylland		Thx Jorge and Jack What excactly is: "For buss wires I use number 12 copper wire and then solder the feeders to them. The number twelve wire has less resistance and helps get the maximum juice to the feeders. "
		Steen Digital | C-Track | Epoche II-IV | Railroad & Co. 7.0 Gold | IB 1 | LocoNet
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tnx jake		#6 Posted : 09 August 2004 18:46:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 07/11/2002(UTC) Posts: 388 Location: ,		Eisenhower, A buss wire is a wire that you connect your feeder wires to. Rather than run all of your feeder wires to a central point and then to the transformer or central unit, this heavier wire carries the current to the feeder wires. A larger wire has less resistance and gets more power to the feeders. I don't know how to draw on computer to show you how it would look. Perhaps some else can do that. If you get a copy of some of the Marklin books on the subject, it shows you how. Think of a wire coming from the transformer or central unit and going around the perimiter of the layout in a ring. This would be the buss wire. Then every four our five feet you connect a feeder wire from the track to the buss wire. If you have two power sources, in your case you should use the 6021 with a booster. The power coming from the 6021 to the track must go to one track section and the power coming from the booster must go to another track section. The two track sections must be insulated from one another. Marklin makes different insulators depending upon what kind of track you use. NEVER connect two power sources to the same track section. I hope this helps. Jack
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nico van zon		#7 Posted : 09 August 2004 19:37:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 202 Location: ,		This is the idea of bus-wiring: About a number 12 wire: if Americans and Brits would mention the number of square millimeters instead of their odd numbers, things would be far more comprehensive for "normal" people. Especially because there is a significant difference between the imperial and the American wire gauges. BTW Jake, a number 12 is rather hefty for a buswire!
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Eisenhower		#8 Posted : 09 August 2004 19:40:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 432 Location: Midtjylland		Thx alot Jack & Nico It helps greatly since my "digital-world" is only limited to the 29855 starter set so far. I see how to use a bus-wire now
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jorge_vilarrubi		#9 Posted : 09 August 2004 19:58:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2003(UTC) Posts: 655 Location: Buenos Aires,		In regards to the connection of muultiple power sources, all the rails are connected together, that is, all brown wires go to the brown bus. What must be isolated is the red wires, each one connected to its own section of the layout. Anyway, if you use trafos of the same voltage, no problem will occur when a pickup touches two sections at a time. Regards,
		Jorge Vilarrubí Buenos Aires ARGENTINA
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rschaffr		#10 Posted : 09 August 2004 20:02:35(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,193 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Yes, that is rather hefty. I used 0.8 (#18 for those of us in the US)
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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kimmo		#11 Posted : 09 August 2004 20:16:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 397 Location: ,		Feeding the track power through multiple points in the track is a good practice, particularly when the layout grows bigger. That applies regardless if you use only one power supply or more. Splitting the track into multiple sections and feeding them from separate power supplies via boosters is another story. Whether you need to do that, doesn't depend on the size of the layout or the length of the track, but on how many trains you intend to run at the same time, whether you have many lighted coaches, etc. One way to go is to add another power supply, but instead of dividing the track into two sections, use them to feed the track and the accessories separately. That saves the full 52VA capacity of the control unit for the precious track power. You would still need a booster to pass on the digital signal, though. But an old delta unit is an inexpensive alternative to the real booster, if you can get hold on one.
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tnx jake		#12 Posted : 09 August 2004 21:25:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 07/11/2002(UTC) Posts: 388 Location: ,		Hi all, Yes, it is rather hefty. I just happened to have a lot of 12 guage stranded copper wire left from my ham radio days that I used for antennas, so I decided to use it up. Certainly, a smaller buss can be used, but the power drop on my fairly large layout is minimal. Jack
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Tamrac		#13 Posted : 09 August 2004 22:55:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2003(UTC) Posts: 197 Location: Frenchtown, New Jersey USA		I was also thinking that 12ga was rather overkill, but if you have it lying around it is certainly more cost effective. Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:About a number 12 wire: if Americans and Brits would mention the number of square millimeters instead of their odd numbers, things would be far more comprehensive for "normal" people. Well put Nico. All please try this great conversion site I came across a few years ago. It comes in handy. They have many more conversions than just for wire gauge. http://www.onlineconversion.com/gauge_wire.htm
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tnx jake		#14 Posted : 10 August 2004 00:16:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 07/11/2002(UTC) Posts: 388 Location: ,		Hi Tamrac, Thanks for the conversion site. Now all of the "normal" people will have a place to go to convert so they can understand us "un-normal" people. Jack
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HueyCE		#15 Posted : 10 August 2004 00:33:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,528 Location: Groton, Connecticut		Tamrac- Great link, helps for multiple applications. Thanks for posting it.
		Building German Era I-II layout(Mk IIIc).
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McLae		#16 Posted : 10 August 2004 00:50:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,575 Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX		One point that seems to have been missed: multiple power packs on digital layouts (6021). To get more power for a digital layout, you need a 'booster' (6015, 6017, or Delta). The 6021 and the booster can share the brown connection (rails) but <u>must</u> have isolated red (pukos). One easy way to do this (and understand the idea) is to have a booster power the catenary. E-Loks would then have their own power and digital signal, while the Steam and diesel Loks run on track power. Another way to get the idea is to look in old Marklin catalogs with layouts using multiple blocks (several in the 1980's had these) and see how multiple blocks are setup. I will look in my old catalog collection tonight for specific examples. In the meantime, do NOT connect analog and digital trafos to the same rails. You can damage the 6021 and/ot the trafo. Not to mention starting fires, etc.[xx(]
		The McLae IB digital, DB, OBB, SBB epII-V Providing a home for little lost 'Gators
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john black		#17 Posted : 10 August 2004 00:58:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Normal, unnormal - what's up As we're an International Forum I can live in ALL worlds quite well, never ever had any trouble converting ... Oh how I like William Shakespeare: "Was Ihr wollt, wie es Euch gefällt ... "
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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franciscohg		#18 Posted : 10 August 2004 01:08:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 3,299 Location: Patagonia		I think there is no problem John, just another little joke between these primitive standard units and our more advance and rational metric system PS:sorry i just couldn't resist......[:p][:p]
		German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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john black		#19 Posted : 10 August 2004 01:19:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		There's nothing to be sorry, my friend
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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rschaffr		#20 Posted : 10 August 2004 01:43:33(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,193 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Nico: I've been fighting this all day but I can't resist taking exception to your "normal" comment. AWG is an accepted standard as is square mm. Neither is "normal" nor "abnormal," just different ways of describing the same thing. My business is automotive wiring. Since I am a first tier supplier of wiring harnesses to both US companies and international companites, such as Volvo, I have to be conversent in both. I don't consider either "normal". I do agree, however, that an international forum like this should use the most pervasive standard so that we can communicate effectively, but I can't accept being called "abnormal" because I use the AWG system in my work.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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Night Train		#21 Posted : 10 August 2004 01:58:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 67 Location: ,		I think Marklin makes what is called a "junction block" that you can plug one wire in from your transformer and then plug in several wires to your junction block and this serves as a bus line as well. I know they make them, because I use them on my layout.
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David Dewar		#22 Posted : 10 August 2004 02:10:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,467 Location: Scotland		Never really thought of myself as not normal but at least I am not alone if my American friends are also not nornal. David
		Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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kgsjoqvist		#23 Posted : 10 August 2004 12:11:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC) Posts: 754 Location: Täby		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kimmo <br />Feeding the track power through multiple points in the track is a good practice, particularly when the layout grows bigger. That applies regardless if you use only one power supply or more. Splitting the track into multiple sections and feeding them from separate power supplies via boosters is another story. Whether you need to do that, doesn't depend on the size of the layout or the length of the track, but on how many trains you intend to run at the same time, whether you have many lighted coaches, etc. One way to go is to add another power supply, but instead of dividing the track into two sections, use them to feed the track and the accessories separately. That saves the full 52VA capacity of the control unit for the precious track power. You would still need a booster to pass on the digital signal, though. But an old delta unit is an inexpensive alternative to the real booster, if you can get hold on one. This way is the most inexpensive, since you don't need an expensive booster. If you only need extra power for lights and accessories, just connect them to a circuit powered by any trafo you can find (and save the digital power for your trains). If you want to control accessories digitally, the Delta is an ideal replacement for a booster. It can handle 32VA from a trafo, but if your trafo is stronger you can of course also use the extra power for lights on a separate circuit (not through the Delta unit). The Delta can also be used as a booster for digital track power, but it has a time delay, so there can be some problems with momentary shortcuts when you cross between the sections. If you use it for catenary this problem will not occur. Second hand Delta units and 32VA trafos can be found cheap on E-bay and similar places. I keep mine for the time being, as I want to use it as a booster for accessories!
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xxup		#24 Posted : 10 August 2004 12:54:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,612 Location: Australia		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by David Dewar <br />Never really thought of myself as not normal but at least I am not alone if my American friends are also not nornal. David Normal people do not own Marklin trains. Only extraordinary people do..
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Webmaster		#25 Posted : 10 August 2004 18:28:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,165		Here is a link for all our extraordinary members... http://www.ilsco.com/IlscoHome/....nsf/htmlmedia/wire.html
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Renato		#26 Posted : 10 August 2004 19:46:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC) Posts: 976 Location: Gorizia, Italy		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jorge_vilarrubi <br />In regards to the connection of muultiple power sources, all the rails are connected together, that is, all brown wires go to the brown bus. What must be isolated is the red wires, each one connected to its own section of the layout. Anyway, if you use trafos of the same voltage, no problem will occur when a pickup touches two sections at a time. Regards, One thing more: you must check the polarity of the two transformers connected to the isolated sections by means of a 16 V lamp. Then adjust the knob of the two transformers at 50% of the maximum rotation and connect one pole of the lamp to the central rail of one section and the other pole to the central rail of the other section. Finally if the lamp is OFF all is OK and there is no short-circuit when the locomotive slider passes over the two isolated sections (it means that the secondary voltages of the two transformers have a phase-shift of 0 degres). If the lamp is ON (the secondary voltages of the two transformers have a phase-shift of 180 degres) you must rotate 180 degrees the plug <u>of one transformer only</u> in the 230 V socket. This is a technical matter, but I remember I have read this explanation in the instructions for the "old blue transformers", and is justified by the fact that also AC has a polarity, even changing 100 times per second. Cheers Renato
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perz		#27 Posted : 10 August 2004 20:13:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC) Posts: 2,578 Location: Sweden		Just to clarify Renato's comment: The polarity of the transformers is important only when you operate in conventional AC mode. You do not have to care about transformer polarity if you run digital and have separate transformers to supply the different boosters.
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Renato		#28 Posted : 10 August 2004 20:25:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/03/2004(UTC) Posts: 976 Location: Gorizia, Italy		Dear Perz, I was speaking about conventional AC mode of course, as I mentioned the "old blue transformers". In any case you're right about digital running! It's better to specify everything, in order to avoid misunderstanding. Cheers Renato
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nico van zon		#29 Posted : 10 August 2004 21:11:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 202 Location: ,		Even digital has a polarity. But this is clearly indicated by the colors of the wires, red for the hot wire and brown for ground. The only thing you need to take care of is not to mix up the two.
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Eisenhower		#30 Posted : 10 August 2004 21:59:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 432 Location: Midtjylland		Great to have this forum [:p] who need books anyway
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kimmo		#31 Posted : 11 August 2004 12:38:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 397 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kgsjoqvist <br />This way is the most inexpensive, since you don't need an expensive booster. If you only need extra power for lights and accessories, just connect them to a circuit powered by any trafo you can find (and save the digital power for your trains). If you want to control accessories digitally, the Delta is an ideal replacement for a booster. It can handle 32VA from a trafo, but if your trafo is stronger you can of course also use the extra power for lights on a separate circuit (not through the Delta unit). What Karl Gunnar explains above is exactly how I have arranged the power on my layout. I am using 4 power supplies in total. The below schematic illustrates my setup.
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piglesias		#32 Posted : 11 August 2004 21:26:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/10/2002(UTC) Posts: 42 Location: (In Dresden, Germany - 2012/3)		Kimmo, By "Delta," do you mean the 66045? Also, is it possible to the 66045 or maybe another 6000(1) as a booster, or do you have to go for the 6017?
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kimmo		#33 Posted : 11 August 2004 21:46:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 397 Location: ,		Hi Pablo, By Delta I mean the older 6604, but you can use 66045 as well. That was just recently discussed in another thread (look towards the end of the thread): https://www.marklin-users.net/fo...ault.aspx?g=posts&t=1552
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piglesias		#34 Posted : 11 August 2004 22:19:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/10/2002(UTC) Posts: 42 Location: (In Dresden, Germany - 2012/3)		Thanks Kimmo. BTW, that'a beautiful layout you have. I'm currently starting my first layout which is of approximately the same size, and so I go to yours a lot for ideas.
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McLae		#35 Posted : 11 August 2004 22:32:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,575 Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:By "Delta," do you mean the 66045? Also, is it possible to the 66045 or maybe another 6000(1) as a booster, or do you have to go for the 6017? There are two things you are talking about here: power and signal. the 6021 takes the trafo power (Brown+Yellow) and generates a signal that is added to the power and output on Brown+Red wires. The 6021 also passes the signal to the Booster cable. The 6017(or 6604x) takes the power from a second trafo (brown+yellow), adds the signal, and outputs the power+signal on Brown+Red wires. (I do not have a 6604. If it has a power cable (plugs into the wall) you do not need seperate trafo.) Hope this clears things up some.
		The McLae IB digital, DB, OBB, SBB epII-V Providing a home for little lost 'Gators
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kimmo		#36 Posted : 11 August 2004 22:39:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 397 Location: ,		Thomas, that's exactly how it goes. In my simplified diagram above I omitted the common ground (brown), but yellows and reds are shown as you say. There is slightly modified version of the picture on my web-site. It is more accurate. http://personal.inet.fi/...kinen/Power%20Scheme.gif
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McLae		#37 Posted : 12 August 2004 07:15:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,575 Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX		In the 1986/87 catalog (page 139), there is a track plan for using 3 analog tafos with the track color coded. There is also a diagram on page 142 showing how to connect a 6020. (Yes, 6020. Very old catalog) If you have access to the 0700 track plan book, the larger layouts show how to connect multiple analog trafos. Also shows block usage and overhead diagrams. Nice reference. (even tho I now use C-track[:p]) Update: I also found a diagram in the starter set book, page 83. (title is 'Ein "Click" - und los gehts') Also, in the 0303 digital manual, page 14 . I believe this manual is on the web, but I do not remember the link. The disgram is at the bottom of this page: http://www.luckas.org/marklin/index.htm
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nico_w		#38 Posted : 29 October 2004 10:45:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 2 Location: ,		Hi there, I'm completely new to this forum, so I would like to start with a stupid question: When You're working with Two Track sections that are insulated from one another, one powered through a controller and one through a booster. How can you control your loc's when they are in the section powered by the booster. Or to put it in another way, how does the digital signal reach the other track section when they are electrically insulated. By the way, I'm running mostly Diesel Loc's on M Tracks controlled by Delta, but I'm seriously thinking about switching to digital. Any good advice about switching over scenario's is welcome Thnx in advance Nico
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nico van zon		#39 Posted : 29 October 2004 11:51:50(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 202 Location: ,		Hi other Nico! What is called a controller has also a booster built in it. The actual controller part forms the digital signal, and this signal is fed into the booster, which in fact is an amplifier. For a second section of track you need an extra booster, that gets its input signal also from the controller. So the result is that both sections (or more sections if you have more boosters) carry exactly the same signal. So when a loco crosses the sectionborder, nothing changes. The main reason for dividing the layout in sections is to spread the power. Normal boosters have an output of 3 amps. That means, when you have a short circuit, the current is limited to a little more than 3 amps. Instead of e.g. 3 boosters each 3 amps you could have one booster of 10 amps capacity. But in case of a short this would cause a current of a bit more than 10 amps, which could ruin the wiring, the wheels or the track.
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nico_w		#40 Posted : 29 October 2004 16:57:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 2 Location: ,		Thanks for the reply Nico Thats exactly what I was thinking But somewhere else on the Forum I found this: http://tvs-online-engine...nplan_voedingspunten.gif This drawing shows a booster next to a controller(which is an intellibox over here) Both are only connected through the Ground or Mass cable. Is there something wrong over here or does this work Nico
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nico van zon		#41 Posted : 29 October 2004 18:05:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 202 Location: ,		Nico, that drawing you refer to displays only the power connections. But there should be a signal cable between IB and booster as well.
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