Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Nuno  
#1 Posted : 07 December 2009 02:01:04(UTC)
Nuno


Joined: 27/05/2003(UTC)
Posts: 235
Location: ,
Hi

I always had this doubt in my mind. Suppose a single track that has a turnout leading to 2 parallel tracks, for instance at a station. Then, at the end, there is another turnout and we get a single track again. There is a train going in one of the traks and when it reaches the end turnout, its blades should be in the correct position for the train to continue its way. My question is: does it have to be like this? In the model layout, it is not, the train forces the turnout blades without any problem, you only take care of this if you wish to have things functioning perfectly.

But what happens in reality?
- Could the train continue without problems, forcing the turnout to move accordingly?
- Would the turnout move without problems and return to their original position afterwards, as in the model?
- Would the train derail? (I doubt)
- Would the turnout be damaged?

I know that this no problems for the tramways, at least in Lisbon, they force the turnout to change position and it stays in that new position, no problem. But with trains I don't know. And if they must always be in the correct position this really means a very carefull controlling system...

Cheers,

Nuno Smile
Offline ozzman  
#2 Posted : 07 December 2009 05:20:40(UTC)
ozzman

Australia   
Joined: 23/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,828
Location: Sydney, Australia
Hi Nuno

Some American railways used to have what were called "spring switches" (turnouts), which operated the same way that our model ones do. Someone may correct me, but I don't think those are in use any longer.
Gary
Z Scale
"Never let the prototype get in the way of a good layout"
Offline TroyYang  
#3 Posted : 07 December 2009 05:48:00(UTC)
TroyYang


Joined: 01/04/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: San Francisco, CA
I always wonder if three-way turnout exists in the real world.
Troy
San Francisco, USA
Marklin HO - all eras and everything.
Offline kariosls37  
#4 Posted : 07 December 2009 07:01:06(UTC)
kariosls37

New Zealand   
Joined: 02/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,067
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
three way turnouts do exist in real life. and I can prove it.
UserPostedImage
from www.nicospilt.com
as for turnouts, tram track turnouts are usually sprung, like M*'s ones. However, most mainline turnouts are controlled by mechanisms that will prevent movements of the points
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kariosls37
Offline TroyYang  
#5 Posted : 07 December 2009 08:52:34(UTC)
TroyYang


Joined: 01/04/2009(UTC)
Posts: 157
Location: San Francisco, CA
Thank you!
Troy
San Francisco, USA
Marklin HO - all eras and everything.
Offline tekin65  
#6 Posted : 07 December 2009 09:46:17(UTC)
tekin65

Turkey   
Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,151
Location: istanbul,
Hi,

I haven't heard of spring turnouts in Europe. Most model railway systems also work like the real life; the turnout have to be in correct position otherwise ...

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Nuno
<br />But what happens in reality?
- Could the train continue without problems, forcing the turnout to move accordingly?


Most possibly no, it can't continue ...

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Nuno
<br />- Would the turnout move without problems and return to their original position afterwards, as in the model?


No ...

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Nuno
<br />- Would the train derail? (I doubt)


Very possibly, that's what happens on layouts.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Nuno
<br />- Would the turnout be damaged?


In real life very very likely, but not on layouts.

Cem.
3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD

Now all eras but no ICE

My loco inventory for the interested
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by tekin65
Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 07 December 2009 11:20:32(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
You'll have de-railments.
the tongue is in a solid position and if the train would approach a turnout not being in the right position, it would climb the track and de-rail.

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Nuno  
#8 Posted : 07 December 2009 23:39:20(UTC)
Nuno


Joined: 27/05/2003(UTC)
Posts: 235
Location: ,

Thank you all for clarifying my questions!

Cheers,

Nuno Smile
Offline JT42CWRDriver  
#9 Posted : 08 December 2009 01:20:45(UTC)
JT42CWRDriver


Joined: 28/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 136
Location: Newton Abbot, Devon. UK.
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by river6109
<br />You'll have de-railments.
the tongue is in a solid position and if the train would approach a turnout not being in the right position, it would climb the track and de-rail.




Sorry to disagree, but it's highly unlikely that the train would derail. Usually the point rodding or motor is damaged unless the point is designed to be run through.

I once ran through a set of points with a small light shunting loco. The points were designed to be run through but unfortunately someone had wedged a wooden "scotch" between the open blade and the running rail. Even with such a small loco (an ex-BR 204hp Drewry) the result was no derailment and a bent point blade. With real trains the weight usually means the track is first to give way when there is conflict between them.

Cheers,

Peter.
3 Rail/2 Rail Märklin, Fleischmann, Roco. DCC.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JT42CWRDriver
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 08 December 2009 01:21:38(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by tekin65
<br />I haven't heard of spring turnouts in Europe.

I heard about spring turnouts in Germany. But it was Eastern Germany and IIRC it was narrow gauge.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline kimballthurlow  
#11 Posted : 08 December 2009 01:52:37(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,655
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Real trains can quite easily run through turnouts set against them, unless the point blades are locked.
It is done all the time.

It is frequently done on purpose to allow trains from direction A to proceed into the loop at turnout set A, on the left track, and exit the loop against the turnout blades at point set B. The turnout set B is of course set for trains from direction B to go into the other track, and exit aginst the turnout set A.
This saves any person having to reset the turnouts for each train, and allows trains to easily cross one another.
I have seen this hundreds of times.

When the train goes through the switch blades set against it, the lever of the turnout is actually thrown quite violently, but always seems to survive.

I really like the way the Märklin track system allows this real feature to be done in miniature.
In contrast, it is in my opinion, impossible to do this in a 2 rail system, because of the resultant short in the circuit when the wheels happen to touch the open blade on one side.

Somebody who uses Trix 2 rail C track may be able to confirm this or otherwise.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline ozzman  
#12 Posted : 08 December 2009 02:13:27(UTC)
ozzman

Australia   
Joined: 23/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,828
Location: Sydney, Australia
I don't know about HO or N scale, but it hasn't been a problem for me in Z.
Gary
Z Scale
"Never let the prototype get in the way of a good layout"
Offline JT42CWRDriver  
#13 Posted : 08 December 2009 11:52:13(UTC)
JT42CWRDriver


Joined: 28/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 136
Location: Newton Abbot, Devon. UK.
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kimballthurlow
<br />


I really like the way the Märklin track system allows this real feature to be done in miniature.
In contrast, it is in my opinion, impossible to do this in a 2 rail system, because of the resultant short in the circuit when the wheels happen to touch the open blade on one side.

Somebody who uses Trix 2 rail C track may be able to confirm this or otherwise.

regards
Kimball


Works perfectly with Fleischmann Profi normal points. I doubt it would work with Trix C or any other 2 Rail point that has a switched powered frog.

Cheers,

Peter.
3 Rail/2 Rail Märklin, Fleischmann, Roco. DCC.
Offline MärCo  
#14 Posted : 08 December 2009 20:15:37(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
The frog of a TRIX switch can be powered or unpowered. There is a jumper underneath to choose one of both options.
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline Alsterstreek  
#15 Posted : 23 March 2023 20:26:14(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
I am unearthing this old thread, because I stumbled over a German standard gauge commuter line using sprung turnouts (German: Rückfallweiche):

The Three Lakes Railway (German: Dreiseenbahn) is a 19.2 km (11.9 mi) long - or short - line in the German state of Baden-Württemberg branching southwards from the Höllentalbahn railway, from Freiburg im Breisgau to Donaueschingen, at Titisee station. Along its route it serves stations and halts at Feldberg-Bärental, Altglashütten-Falkau, Aha and Schluchsee, before terminating at Seebrugg.

Sprung turnouts, which can be used at 40 km/h, allow trains to cross at the stations without having to change the points, i.e. a train sets its own route with the help of the sprung turnouts.

German sources:
https://www.3seenbahn.de...hte-funkleitbetrieb.html
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreiseenbahn



thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline mbarreto  
#16 Posted : 24 March 2023 09:58:29(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257

Hello,

I found a Youtube channel that has good explanation on how the turnouts and crossings work. The link below is for the 3 way turnout.

The videos of that channel can only be viewed on Youtube, so you can click on: "Watch on Youtube"




Miguel
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


thanks 2 users liked this useful post by mbarreto
Offline PeFu  
#17 Posted : 24 March 2023 10:43:25(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,208
Thre are modern turnouts in the prototype, that allow trains to pass slowly through a turnout from a siding, even when the turnout isn’t set properly:

https://www.bsverkstader.se/vaexeldriv/

(Page in Swedish, use e.g. Google translate)
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by PeFu
Offline JohnjeanB  
#18 Posted : 24 March 2023 12:46:01(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Nuno
I can speak only for my country France and for SNCF.
In the old days (50 years ago and more) common practice was for a train to push the blades in the point was set in the other direction. So, for sure it will not derail.
Nowadays, the situation is very different with longer and longer turnouts to accommodate high speed (some allow 200 km/h in deviation and up to 570 km/h in straight position.
These high speed points have also a special moving frog so as to avoid any damaging bumps
Sans titre.png

These very long points have a complex mechanism to move the blades from multiple points and they are high precision. So yes, for these elaborate turnouts, they will be damaged (not destroyed)

Today, this is now, out of the question. All points must be set correctly or the train is simply forbidden to move past the red signal in protection of the itinerary not set.
So the reason is security, wear of the point mechanism and the wheel flange wear.

Trains never derail by runing on a non set turnouts but can derail:
- if the blades are not fully set on one side or the other
- if the train speed does not correspond to the TO position

Cheers
Jean
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline Alsterstreek  
#19 Posted : 29 March 2023 13:25:54(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Nuno [...]
Very interesting Jean, but do you realize that you react to a more than 13 years old post?
Wink


(1) Noting that the sprung turnout is not an invention of the model railroad industry, I resurrected this thread because I found additonal information relating to standard gauge "Rückfallweichen" in Germany (used for easing train crossings in the Black Forest), as sprung turnouts were subject of an ensuing debate in 2009 - see below:
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by tekin65
<br />I haven't heard of spring turnouts in Europe.

I heard about spring turnouts in Germany. But it was Eastern Germany and IIRC it was narrow gauge.

(2) Meanwhile I detected another example in Ingolstadt. As of 2:10 this four years old video documents how a train (or just a locomotive?) runs through several turnouts set against it before reversing into a parallel track without resetting any turnout.
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Alsterstreek  
#20 Posted : 29 March 2023 17:35:01(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Further to post #5 information on the Three Lakes Railway in the German state of Baden-Württemberg, a video showing the routine of a passenger train setting its own route with the help of the sprung turnouts by running through turnouts set against it.


08:40-08:50 Aha station exit turnout
17:20-17:30 Bärental station exit turnout
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Alsterstreek
Offline Mman  
#21 Posted : 29 March 2023 18:25:43(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
When I started with the signals and telecomms department of British Railways in the 70s there were lots of spring points including those on the mainlines. Mostly these were catch points designed to divert or derail any waggons that might break loose from an ‘unfitted’ train climbing a gradient. When my region (SR) went fully fitted (continuous brakes) these spring points were abolished. However in depôts and other lines spring points continued to be used. At a junction near Aldershot it wasn’t until about 2015 that some trailing junction points were motorised although leading up to this a speed limited had been introduced over them. Prior to that they took a hell of a bashing and would frequently begin to shake apart. As usual the platelayers who should have been responsible for the fittings would say that they had neither the experience, knowledge or tools to maintain them so it fell to us to rebuild them. There were some passing loops on very minor lines which had spring points each end with an indicator to the drivers approaching in a facing direction that the points were in the correct position.
Trailable points are very useful on Märklin railways, something I miss on my (original Meccano made) Hornby Dublo one.
ChrisG
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Mman
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.199 seconds.