 Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Hello all! It has been a few of years since my last post (but I have been ocasionaly keeping informed with some topic readings, when life allowed), I apologize for being dormant for so long. Long story - short, I had to disassemble my analog layouts (that I made previous Topics about) when we moved, then after moving twice in 2 years, then mother nature threw us a whopper, a Derecho - we started remodeling our house after the Derecho in 2023 hit hard and did a lot of damage. I had to pack it all up for safe storage since all the windows, ceilings and walls were being redone. It took about 14 months to complete to the point were I could start the new benchwork. With some assistance from a handyman we finished the first level of benchwork in May of this year. It has been way too long! Again, my apologies......... It was never clear for a couple of years when I would have the time to get back to what makes me happy....Märklin Modeleisenbahn and being involved with our German exchange Programs in Potsdam Germany.
I purchased the track plan from Meises Modellbahn Center. For reference, here is a pic of the plan showing the 2nd & 3rd levels. There is a hidden shadow Bahnhof (station) under the center area.
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 4 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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right now I have been working on:
learning the ins & outs of Digital controls with the ECoS Command Station, the ESU LokProgrammer and some Märklin digital accessories I have had for many years.
I have been focusing on the shadow station and getting this area under digital control since a majority of it will be hidden and only accessible from the back and a window up front. There are 10 sidings and I am trying to get each of them set up with track occupancy detection as well as Lokomotive identification with the ECoS. This is a Photo from July of this year after getting the C-Track installed on the lower level.
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7 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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I have spent quite a bit of time lately with track monitoring and the ECoS Command Station track plan/Diagram. I purchased the ECoS Detector RC (RailCom) and the ECoS Detector modules. It was a pretty simple setup after the wiring was complete, just one wire to each isolated track section and in the white block on the track diagram the Locomotive address & name are displayed - very cool! This will be great since I plan on having my shadow station mostly blocked from view. Finally figured out how to display the Command Stations screen on the Laptop & TV. I can better see the track plan & train identification information. This has brought things to a different level for me. Thanks to Rudd's Video explaining how to incorporate the VNC Viewer (link Below): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hARmTlATIyEFor an early Christmas present - I set up a touch screen so I can view the track plan on a larger screen as well as being able to touch/control the switches, routes & signals... so far so good. 
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8 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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On 4 of the shadow station sidings (furthest from view) I installed the ESU braking modules using the ESU Switch Pilot & Switch Pilot Extension. On One of the stations I used a Märklin Signal/Braking module - I did this since the ICE-3 Sets (37780 & 37783) have Märlkin decoders and I did not know or understand if I could get these to react to the ESU braking modules. Perhaps there is a way to change the CV's so I can get them to react to the braking module commands.... not sure, still learning. Recently, Brian Morgan on Märklin Bar & Grill has helped & taught me a lot about these systems and how they operate. I am very grateful for that.
So, my first question/request is - Can I get the Märklin decoders to react to the commands from the ESU Braking Modules?
Perhaps I could change CV's 253, 254, 134 and 27 on these decoders? Not sure if the Lokprogrammer or ECoS Command Station has the ability to do this? I am probably missing something and I have a bad habit of making things more complicated than they need to be. I do Have a Uhlenbrock Intelibox - perhaps I can use this to accomplish that?
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
Rich Siegmann
South Dakota
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3 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Or as Rick Sinclair from Märklin has taught me recently - perhaps I am making this to complicated for the shadow station and should use the Märklin K83 or M83 to control/block the shadow sidings and not using the Braking modules in this area?
I keep reverting back to the ESU Switch Pilot & Detectors since I would like to have the locomotive identification in the shadow station.
as usual - making things more complicated for myself...... thoughts or suggestions?
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1 user liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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 Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,288
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Nice project! For such big layout I would suggest controlling using a PC software such as Rocrail or TrainController instead of brake modules. This would provide better control, higher flexibility and less wiring.  |
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3 users liked this useful post by PeFu
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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PeFu, Thank you for your input - very much appreciated! When I first started this layout I was against using train control software. I thought software would take away from the fun of running trains myself. Perhaps I was wrong. You are correct! I have been doing a lot of wiring, (more than I expected) and spending hours on the computer programing locomotives to react to the brake controllers.
I'm still learning 
Is Rocrail or TrainController compatible with the ESU Command Station? I assume yes.
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2 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Both (and others) are compatible with The ESU command station. Either of these look like they will work well, just another system to learn 👍🏻
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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I will give RocRail a try, I downloaded the software and will connect it to the ECoS through the router dedicated to the ECoS command station. Looks pretty simple via the IP address which has been working fine with the VNC viewer. Thank you PeFu….😎👍🏻. Perhaps computer control is the best option for this hidden shadow station.
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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One question, with RocRail or any other software, how does the software detect train location? In my early reading - I believe it stated something about using the speed tables?
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Joined: 23/01/2013(UTC) Posts: 161 Location: New York
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Originally Posted by: White Buffalo  PeFu, Thank you for your input - very much appreciated! When I first started this layout I was against using train control software. I thought software would take away from the fun of running trains myself. Perhaps I was wrong. You are correct! I have been doing a lot of wiring, (more than I expected) and spending hours on the computer programing locomotives to react to the brake controllers.
I'm still learning
Is Rocrail or TrainController compatible with the ESU Command Station? I assume yes. Mr. Buffalo, I second the idea of using software for train control. I was hesitant at first but after taking the plunge and learning the software I actually run more trains more often. It’s fun to come up with a route, schedule, sequence etc and sit back and watch your trains do their thing. For example I’m learning how to get my locomotives to do certain functions, sound, lights etc at certain areas of the layout, like sound a horn when coming out of a tunnel. There is a bit of a learning curve but plenty of help on this and whatever software you go with forum. I initially set my layout up with brake modules and singles that would control the trains but this is all unnecessary if you use software. The software can slow your trains down and stop them where you want. I took out all my brake modules and only needed to wire my signals so they can be controlled digitally (they do not control track power). The software can control the signals to show whatever aspect they are capable of. I use Train Controller but there are other good ones out there. I learned a lot by watching you tube videos by Rudy. Here is the link. You can watch a few to give you and idea of what the software can do. https://youtube.com/play...&si=oxquUXPtuw6SpeSNAlso, this forum has a Software section that can help. I’m still very much a novice but figured I give you my thoughts since I was in a similar situation. Oh, did I mention less wiring since you don’t need brake modules. Of course you can still run your trains manually. Hope this helps and good luck. |
Marklin HO, CS3+, Train Controller 10 Gold, Any era. Like Swiss Locomotives. |
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Thank you Garben, sounds like I am following in your foot steps👍🏻. Originally, I thought I could use the ESU brake modules for the Märklin Lok‘s with ESU decoders and the Märklin brake Controller for the Marklin ICE sets. Giving the ICE-3 sets dedicated sidings. As you probably know, by Doing this:
1. the sidings with the ESU brake controllers, each Locomotive needs to have the CV‘s adjusted so the Loc stops at the signal, time consuming. The track occupancy and train identification still are displayed on the track plan, so that is good.
2. the sidings with the Märklin brake module work the same for all Märklin decoders in my experience, no need to change CV‘s. But I lose Track occupancy being displayed on the track plan via the ECoS in the sections that have the track power off at the signal.
Hope this explanation makes sense. Again thank you for posting and appreciate any advice.
I can save the brake modules for another. Location 👍🏻
Best regards,
Rich S.
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Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,288
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Originally Posted by: White Buffalo I can save the brake modules for another. Location 👍🏻 Or simply sell them  Installing brake modules in a new digital layout is for me like using VHS instead of streaming services or DVD, in a new home theater. If you go for Rocrail, I’m sure the software will keep track on in which blocks the different trains are, as e.g. TrainController does (which I’m more familiar with). Also, you won’t need different solutions for Märklin trains and other trains. The ESU train detection system you have is very advanced but IMHO you would be OK with a more simple detection system which only tells the software THAT a block is occupied. Rocrail will kep track (!) on WHICH train is there. The ECoSDetector module would probably provide more contacts spots for the bucks? |
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1 user liked this useful post by PeFu
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 Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,555 Location: Paris, France
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Hi Rich It is great to have you back and I wish you all the best for your new project. Originally Posted by: White Buffalo One question, with RocRail or any other software, how does the software detect train location? In my early reading - I believe it stated something about using the speed tables? The answer is Rocrail (RR) (and also the others) don't need to. The principle is to enter the whole layout into RR so it knows what are the relations between all stop sections, track pieces and next it must know where each train, loco, car, wagon is located. Once you have entered these locations. Sensors help RR to update these locations so you do the entering once (it is fair to say very rarely). I use Rocrail since 2013 and it is really on excellent piece of software Here is a video on my layout. As you may see I am not a master in decoration and landscaping and my layout is cramped into a small room (4 x 4 meters) it has 3 layers and a Faller Car System In my opinion, RR (or other train control s/w) is really indispensable to "multi-task" the operation and especially in non visible areas (approx 70% of my tracks are hidden) Cheers Jean |
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2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Thank you both the the advice and information ! and thank you for being involved in my learning process, greatly appreciated. Starting to dig into the block system and identifying the options for block detection. Hoping to get my first block set up this weekend.
In my early learning, I believe the block detection options are:
reed contacts
magnetic contacts
IR sensors
ESU Detectors
PeFu, yes - I believe I can use the ESU Switch Pilots I have to connect block detectors. I will test the ESU detectors and see if Rocrail will see them as well. Jean, great video - hopefully I will get my layout to work as well as yours does.
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Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,288
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Originally Posted by: White Buffalo In my early learning, I believe the block detection options are:
reed contacts
magnetic contacts
IR sensors As it seems as if you are on C tracks, is there any specific reason why you haven’t considered the method used by probably >99 % of all C tracks users? You could still use ESU modules for detection (not having to use the Märklin S88 module shown in the clip below). From the ESU ECoSDetector manual:  |
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3 users liked this useful post by PeFu
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Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 480 Location: USA
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Originally Posted by: PeFu Nice project! For such big layout I would suggest controlling using a PC software such as Rocrail or TrainController instead of brake modules. This would provide better control, higher flexibility and less wiring. I agree with PeFu, but be advised that zone planning is needed to get the most out of PC software like Rocrail (that i use). Lot of feedback track install, but they provide zone operational control that software uses. Luckily, C track makes feedback easy. Ben |
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1 user liked this useful post by BenP
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Originally Posted by: PeFu Originally Posted by: White Buffalo In my early learning, I believe the block detection options are:
reed contacts
magnetic contacts
IR sensors As it seems as if you are on C tracks, is there any specific reason why you haven’t considered the method used by probably >99 % of all C tracks users? You could still use ESU modules for detection (not having to use the Märklin S88 module shown in the clip below). From the ESU ECoSDetector manual:
Scheibenkleister! I completely overlooked this method. I have set up the ECOS detectors for locomotive identification and completely forgot about track occupancy with this method, thank you so much for helping me out with this. This is clearly an option without needing additional sensor input. Vielen dank!
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Originally Posted by: BenP Originally Posted by: PeFu Nice project! For such big layout I would suggest controlling using a PC software such as Rocrail or TrainController instead of brake modules. This would provide better control, higher flexibility and less wiring. I agree with PeFu, but be advised that zone planning is needed to get the most out of PC software like Rocrail (that i use). Lot of feedback track install, but they provide zone operational control that software uses. Luckily, C track makes feedback easy. Ben I am starting to understand this.... Thank you!
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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I am so grateful for the help!
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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I did make some progress tonight. It took me some time to learn how to navigate through the software, but the Rocrail instructions and some help from YouTube videos I was able to connect Rocrail to my ESU and it easily populated all the locomotives & addresses. I was able to control the locomotives with Rocrail and both my ESU Hand Controllers, very happy about that! Then I added a couple of Locomotive images as well.
I'll keep moving along with setting up a track diagram......
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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another question,
Rocrail uses .png images and the ECoS has them saved as .bmp files. Is there a way to import locomotive images from the ECoS or do I need to add them each individually?
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Looks like the best way is to save them in the Rocrail/images folder 👍🏻
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Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 480 Location: USA
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Originally Posted by: White Buffalo another question,
Rocrail uses .png images and the ECoS has them saved as .bmp files. Is there a way to import locomotive images from the ECoS or do I need to add them each individually? Individually. You can store in any folder, and tell Rocrail where to look for them. Beware of image dimensions 230x80 and format (may need crop). |
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Originally Posted by: BenP Originally Posted by: White Buffalo another question,
Rocrail uses .png images and the ECoS has them saved as .bmp files. Is there a way to import locomotive images from the ECoS or do I need to add them each individually? Individually. You can store in any folder, and tell Rocrail where to look for them. Beware of image dimensions 230x80 and format (may need crop). BenP, thank you. Just to make sure I understand, I should use 230 x 80, or stay away?
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Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 480 Location: USA
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Originally Posted by: White Buffalo Originally Posted by: BenP Originally Posted by: White Buffalo another question,
Rocrail uses .png images and the ECoS has them saved as .bmp files. Is there a way to import locomotive images from the ECoS or do I need to add them each individually? Individually. You can store in any folder, and tell Rocrail where to look for them. Beware of image dimensions 230x80 and format (may need crop). BenP, thank you. Just to make sure I understand, I should use 230 x 80, or stay away? Sorry for sounding cryptic. Save as 230x80 pixels to fit rocrail panel. Max dimensions. |
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Just an update and adding some info for my records if I need to refer back. Making progress now that I have become familiar with Rocrail and better understand how to make blocks & routes. Thank you all for all of your help. One big change was to remove the ESU braking modules since they would only work with ESU decoders and I didn't want to have dedicated sidings for locomotives with Märklin decoders. So now I can have Rocrail take control of stopping any locomotive in a precise spot prior to the signal mast. I was able to use the already installed ESU Detectors as sensors in Rocrail and now have both track occupancy and locomotive identification showing in Rocrail and on the ESU Command station track plan. I'll save the ESU braking modules for other areas on the layout.   Thank you for all the technical advise & help, I would not have gotten this far without it. Now, it will take me some time to wire up the signal mast (lights only - not used to control track power) and use some Märklin K84's and the 1 ESU Signal Pilot I have. Rocrail is a very powerful & comprehensive train software program, still learning how to use the BBT (Block Brake Timer) and develop some more complicated routes. JohnJean & Martti gave me some great advice - start with simple, take good notes and add to the track plan like in the Wiki Demo. The demo plan & virtual mode is definitely the tool I should have spent more time with from the beginning. It would have saved me a lot of time and frustration. I am still able to control the locomotives manually with the ESU Command Station and the ESU Mobile controllers, each device reflects the speed and function changes that the other makes. Looking forward to getting this first level all wired up and start on the next sometime soon - I hope
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2 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Rocrail Block images (imbedded sensors, block colors & states, etc).  
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1 user liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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setting switch addresses :on the ECoS - navigate to signals & switches. Select - edit/properties tool (wrench symbol bottom right of screen) then select the desired switch. When in the "edit accessory" screen - it will show the address information needed by Rocrail - the address in brackets on the address line. In the example below [5:4] Rocrail address = 5, Port =4 Duration 150 ms seems to be enough to flip the switches, perhaps this will extend the life of the switch motors 
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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from JohnjeanB, it is better to standardize the IN length of each block (18 cm - 1 section of Märklin 188 C-Track) and to do on EACH LOCO but ONCE for the entire layout - adjust ON THE LOCO the braking delay and acceleration delay (a freight train takes much longer to decelerate / accelerate - adjust V_route to the normal speed of a given loco - adjust V_mid so that when arriving at that speed EACH loco will stop at the exact same distance IN FRONT of the signal The precision stop is approx 1 cm Excellent advice Jean  It takes the Locomotive 3-5 runs in the siding to learn and adjust the speed steps, so when it enters the "IN" sensor is is at V_min and stops in front of the signal.
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2 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: South Dakota
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Got the ESU Signal Pilot hooked up and programmed this weekend
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