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Offline PeFu  
#1 Posted : 28 November 2024 00:35:48(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
I plan to buy a LUX 9301 ”Radreinigungsanlage”, i.e. a wheel cleaning facility, which is driven by a Faulhaber motor at 12 V DC according to LUX. Could I use a Märklin 60901 decoder to control the Faulhaber motor, or could this damage the motor in some way? Remembering that during ”these days”, Märklin recommended the 60905 decoder for these types of motors?

Smile
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube Channel | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold
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Offline Wolfram_Stn  
#2 Posted : 28 November 2024 10:25:39(UTC)
Wolfram_Stn

France   
Joined: 14/02/2024(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: Grand-Est, Alsace
If by Faulhaber motor you mean a brushless non-iron rotor type, then you should really prefer the 60905, which controls the motor with much higher frequencies than the 60902/60901. 60901 is designed for (heavy) DCM DC motors with iron rotor and works in the low kHz range. (Some decoders for coil stator motors even work with <100 Hz !) Faulhaber needs >>15 kHz.
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Offline PeFu  
#3 Posted : 28 November 2024 14:56:58(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Originally Posted by: Wolfram_Stn Go to Quoted Post
If by Faulhaber motor you mean a brushless non-iron rotor type, then you should really prefer the 60905, which controls the motor with much higher frequencies than the 60902/60901. 60901 is designed for (heavy) DCM DC motors with iron rotor and works in the low kHz range. (Some decoders for coil stator motors even work with <100 Hz !) Faulhaber needs >>15 kHz.

I read on another forum about a similar issue, that they recommended a rectifier between the decoder and motor, to eliminate the pulse (PWM) from the decoder. There is no need for load regulation etc. for this purpose. I haven’t got the Faulhaber at home yet, but wouldn’t this maybe do the trick?
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube Channel | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold
Offline kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 28 November 2024 20:15:18(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,339
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Wolfram_Stn Go to Quoted Post
If by Faulhaber motor you mean a brushless non-iron rotor type, then you should really prefer the 60905, which controls the motor with much higher frequencies than the 60902/60901. 60901 is designed for (heavy) DCM DC motors with iron rotor and works in the low kHz range. (Some decoders for coil stator motors even work with <100 Hz !) Faulhaber needs >>15 kHz.

I read on another forum about a similar issue, that they recommended a rectifier between the decoder and motor, to eliminate the pulse (PWM) from the decoder. There is no need for load regulation etc. for this purpose. I haven’t got the Faulhaber at home yet, but wouldn’t this maybe do the trick?


No, because the PWM is an on/off control of the voltage, it will only introduce a voltage drop and the motor will run only one way (well that is what you want anyway), but the pulse rate will still reach the motor. The problem is that the low pulse rate used for iron core motors (as used in the Marklin 'universal' AC motors) will shake the windings in the motor to a point where they will fall apart as they have insufficient mass to act as a filter for the pulse rate.

If you could drive the motor from a function output then you won't have the problem. I suspect a headlamp output may have enough current capability to drive the faulhaber as these take a relatively low current, and the headlamp outputs are capable of driving an incandescent lamp. Would be worth checking the motor draw to check if this is possible.

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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 29 November 2024 10:06:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,388
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Wolfram_Stn Go to Quoted Post
If by Faulhaber motor you mean a brushless non-iron rotor type, then you should really prefer the 60905
"Faulhaber" motors are coreless motors, but they are not brushless.
You're right, the 60901 is not appropriate and the 60905 was made for coreless motors.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline marklinist5999  
#6 Posted : 29 November 2024 13:32:07(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,592
Location: Michigan, Troy
My old dealer/repair tech. installed a 60901/60902 decoder in my #3511 Lady of Wurtemberg C. I have the manual for the decoder.
It buzzes at slower speed, but runs well. Should he have used a different decoder? It was done back in the late 90's.
Offline PeFu  
#7 Posted : 29 November 2024 16:45:57(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
If you could drive the motor from a function output then you won't have the problem. I suspect a headlamp output may have enough current capability to drive the faulhaber as these take a relatively low current, and the headlamp outputs are capable of driving an incandescent lamp. Would be worth checking the motor draw to check if this is possible.

Thanks kiwiAlan! According to LUX the device will take approximately. 150 mA. I will test with a function output instead Smile

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube Channel | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold
Offline bph  
#8 Posted : 30 November 2024 12:38:53(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,071
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
My old dealer/repair tech. installed a 60901/60902 decoder in my #3511 Lady of Wurtemberg C. I have the manual for the decoder.
It buzzes at slower speed, but runs well. Should he have used a different decoder? It was done back in the late 90's.


Its the "wrong" decoder, even if it works the motor will probably not last as long as it might do with a correct decoder. It's more information on the stummiforum about this, but you have to search.
So depending on how much you have used it, a new mld3/msd3 or similar is recommended. And remember to select the correct motor type and do the automatic calibration. This will likely make it run better also, unless the motor is too far gone.
Depending on how the upgrade was done, a new decoder board might be useful. eg something like this: https://luessi.ch/eshop/oc/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2438&search=Class+C (note the clip for the centre "pole", so you need to check your locomotive in order to get the right parts).
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Offline marklinist5999  
#9 Posted : 30 November 2024 12:58:33(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,592
Location: Michigan, Troy
I don't think the buzzing is from the motor, but it could be. This model was analog with LED lights, and a circuit board with caps., and a chip originally including the dip switches and the maximum speed and acceleration, and brake delay pots.
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bph
Offline Wolfram_Stn  
#10 Posted : 30 November 2024 15:59:18(UTC)
Wolfram_Stn

France   
Joined: 14/02/2024(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: Grand-Est, Alsace
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Wolfram_Stn Go to Quoted Post
If by Faulhaber motor you mean a brushless non-iron rotor type, then you should really prefer the 60905
"Faulhaber" motors are coreless motors, but they are not brushless.
You're right, the 60901 is not appropriate and the 60905 was made for coreless motors.



My error, I was in confusion between brushless and coreless. Brushless, that's Sinus...

English is not my best known foreign language, I am better in german, french and rhine-franconian.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 30 November 2024 20:06:08(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,339
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
My old dealer/repair tech. installed a 60901/60902 decoder in my #3511 Lady of Wurtemberg C. I have the manual for the decoder.
It buzzes at slower speed, but runs well. Should he have used a different decoder? It was done back in the late 90's.


Yes, that buzzing can potentially shake the windings apart.
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Offline nhumps  
#12 Posted : 30 November 2024 20:58:42(UTC)
nhumps

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 123
Location: Kapiti Coast
I didn't have a decoder suitable lying about so I've just opted to order the 9301.7 with the decoder built in, for the approx 27Euro extra i feel i have taken the lazy option :)
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Offline PeFu  
#13 Posted : 03 December 2024 18:51:48(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
I just received the LUX Radreinigungsanlage! I connected it to the F1 output from an old 6090x decoder, which provided 17.3 V DC. Added an 180 Ohm resistor to bring it below 12 V, and tested the machine. Success! Speed seems to be the same as on different Youtube clips, but in case needed, I will add a potentiometer later. Next: Add some required tracks to the layout!

BigGrin

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube Channel | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold
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Offline PeFu  
#14 Posted : 27 December 2024 12:47:13(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
I have installed the LUX Wheel Cleaner in connection with the expansion of the shadow station. I first controlled the facility using the function output of the Märklin decoder as described above, but found that the facility slowed down too much when cleaning heavy models. Therefore I installed an ESU LokPilot 5 decoder using the motor output (on 40 kHz) instead. As you can see on the clip, the decoder’s load regulation feature keeps the speed of the facility even when running the heavy old HAG Re 4/4II.

In Freiwald’s forum for the Railroad & Co TrainController, I found a way of controlling the facility from the switchboard, i.e. without opening a locomotive/engine window or assigning the facility to a block, described in the image below.

Smile



IMG_4384.jpeg
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube Channel | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#15 Posted : 04 January 2025 05:43:15(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,930
Location: CA, USA
I'll ask the important question: how good of a job does it do cleaning?
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Offline PeFu  
#16 Posted : 04 January 2025 15:30:00(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
I'll ask the important question: how good of a job does it do cleaning?

The wheels from the trains leave some dust on the strips, so it seems as if it helps. There are several performance reviews available if you google it.

Smile
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube Channel | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold
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Offline bygger01  
#17 Posted : 07 January 2025 12:47:42(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 222
Location: Herning in Denmark
I don't quite understand, why you want a decoder built in.

The Lux track cleaner must simply be placed as little visible as possible, and every time a train passes by, it must clean all the wheels.

Why not just choose a relay that turns on as long as there is passing traffic, and let the relay control an insulated rail, after all the Märklin rails in question.

The relay solution also makes it easier to fit in 12 Volt DC.

Or is there something I have overlooked?
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
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Offline PeFu  
#18 Posted : 07 January 2025 22:18:51(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Originally Posted by: bygger01 Go to Quoted Post
I don't quite understand, why you want a decoder built in.

The Lux track cleaner must simply be placed as little visible as possible, and every time a train passes by, it must clean all the wheels.

Why not just choose a relay that turns on as long as there is passing traffic, and let the relay control an insulated rail, after all the Märklin rails in question.

The relay solution also makes it easier to fit in 12 Volt DC.

Or is there something I have overlooked?

Well, I don’t have a 12 V DC source, only several DC sources at approx. 20 V, so I would have to arrange for a potentiometer or similar anyway. Also, I want the flexibility to be able to use the stubtrack for staging trains also, i.e. not only for cleaning. This is easier if the facility is controlled by the PC software. Finally, the decoder provides load regulation, i.e. the wheel cleaner doesn’t slow down that much, when entered by heavy engines vs. light cars. It’s a huge difference now compared to when i used a function output of a decoder for powering the wheel cleaner (as described in a previous post).

Smile



Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube Channel | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold
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Offline bygger01  
#19 Posted : 08 January 2025 22:13:47(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 222
Location: Herning in Denmark
Don't you save old mobile chargers or the like, because then you probably also want 12V DC!
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline PeFu  
#20 Posted : 09 January 2025 01:49:09(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,274
Originally Posted by: bygger01 Go to Quoted Post
Don't you save old mobile chargers or the like, because then you probably also want 12V DC!

In post #14 i declared that the decoder is installed and everything fine. In #18 I stated why I wanted a decoder to control the wheel cleaner. I.e. no need for a separate DC charger, at least not for this animation.

BigGrin

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube Channel | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#21 Posted : 09 January 2025 06:34:41(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,930
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
I'll ask the important question: how good of a job does it do cleaning?

The wheels from the trains leave some dust on the strips, so it seems as if it helps. There are several performance reviews available if you google it.

Smile


Thanks! I am very interested in one as a potential for solution for me, and I get my layout moving that is. As always, I love the progress on your layout!

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